Political Roundtable Part XV

[CobraCommander]

I love this thread...but if you are politically active and read what the politicians actually do MORE than listen to what they say- you are in the minority. Because most americans vote for parties instead of principles, the politicans will never have accountability. The Democrats and Republicans are playing all of us and there are minor differences between the two when you look at what they really believe. For example...10 years ago republicans hated the idea of universal heath care but now the republicans are trying to repeal and REPLACE the ACA. So basically the republicans want universal healthcare but they want one that WORKS...lol. Ok!?!? Yeah and Trump is against late term abortion but please tell me when was the last time ANYONE tried to END abortion at the federal level? Democrats are pro immigration? Were more people deported under Bush or Obama? Obama hated imprisoning foreign nationals but Gitmo still open. Obama hated how Bush attacked people in Pakistan without Pakistani permission yet we bombed weddings and funerals in Pakistan under Obamas watch. I dont have a problem with either of these points...i just find it interesting that intelligent people can form a conherent opinion about the Wizards but you let Fox or CNN tell you what you think about politics. My recommendation is that if you are going to read the news to form an opinion..read Fox, CNN, Breibart and Al Jeezra about the same story. OR there is a real chance that you are just getting your opinion reinforced in a echo chamber.

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssss!!!!! exactly. read and watch all of them. when you can predict how each of these networks spin the "breaking news." then you begin to understand their fears and motivations. Once you understand that the truth begins to reveal itself.

That's the only way to do it... plus if you have a political party you are being played. NO WAY IN HELL CAN YOU AGREE WITH EVERY THING INCLUDED IN THE PARTY PLATFORM AND DISAGREE WITH EVERYTHING SAID BY THE OTHER PARTY yet most of the people i know hate the other party.

Obama was right when he said an election should be like scrimmage with players on the same team...but we act like enemies-

[DCZards]

The Obama Administration brought this country's economy back from the brink of a recession...

I wish you had left this part out - his administration put together one of the worst stimulus bills (think Solyndra) ever put into place. It did very little to actually get the economy going. The later part of his administration was much more stable in terms of continued growth.

We can debate whether it was the stimulus or something else that turned around the economy, but there is no debating that the economy was in terrible shape when Obama took office in 2009 and it was in MUCH better shape when he left the WH earlier this year.

[stilldropin20]

The Obama Administration brought this country's economy back from the brink of a recession...

I wish you had left this part out - his administration put together one of the worst stimulus bills (think Solyndra) ever put into place. It did very little to actually get the economy going. The later part of his administration was much more stable in terms of continued growth.

We can debate whether it was the stimulus or something else that turned around the economy, but there is no debating that the economy was in terrible shape when Obama took office in 2009 and it was in MUCH better shape when he left the WH earlier this year.

in jan 2009 people were still working. still had insurance. and the housing market hadn't hit its low. It wasn't until the end of 2009 where the banking meltdown lead to full scale closing of the money supply and therefore the credit markets. which killed real estate. which put a ton of skilled labor and unskilled labor out of work. It got worse and worse. The low point was about 2011-2013. In 2014 the real estate market bottomed out and people began to buy again. which made people sell again. and the credit markets slowly opened back up. real estate began its recovery. FTR, the highend market never really died not bottomed out. just less of it moved.

Since im a licensed realtor and have been developing small scale real estate projects in chicago for 25 years I can speak intelligently on this. As many of you know I am also a dentist. In dentistry, my practice finally began to hit its 2007 monthly highs again this past summer. people are finally comfortable again financially to spend money on their teeth again. Now in 2017. Wow!

speaking of, we should all pat each other on the frickin back!! We are finally out of the damn recenssion!!! gohtdamn that was a long ass frickin horrific recession. wow! I wish i never lived through that though. left me scerred. and scared. shattered. tattered. a shadow. but i'll be alright, realgm. dont cry for me too much. :-0

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

I wish you had left this part out - his administration put together one of the worst stimulus bills (think Solyndra) ever put into place. It did very little to actually get the economy going. The later part of his administration was much more stable in terms of continued growth.

We can debate whether it was the stimulus or something else that turned around the economy, but there is no debating that the economy was in terrible shape when Obama took office in 2009 and it was in MUCH better shape when he left the WH earlier this year.

in jan 2009 people were still working. still had insurance. and the housing market hadn't hit its low. It wasn't until the end of 2009 where the banking meltdown lead to full scale closing of the money supply and therefore the credit markets. which killed real estate. which put a ton of skilled labor and unskilled labor out of work. It got worse and worse. The low point was about 2011-2013. In 2014 the real estate market bottomed out and people began to buy again. which made people sell again. and the credit markets slowly opened back up. real estate began its recovery. FTR, the highend market never really died not bottomed out. just less of it moved.

Since im a licensed realtor and have been developing small scale real estate projects in chicago for 25 years I can speak intelligently on this. As many of you know I am also a dentist. In dentistry, my practice finally began to hit its 2007 monthly highs again this past summer. people are finally comfortable again financially to spend money on their teeth again. Now in 2017. Wow!

speaking of, we should all pat each other on the frickin back!! We are finally out of the damn recenssion!!! gohtdamn that was a long ass frickin horrific recession. wow! I wish i never lived through that though. left me scerred. and scared. shattered. tattered. a shadow. but i'll be alright, realgm. dont cry for me too much. :-0

This post begs the question... do you charge 6% commission on fillings?

[Pointgod]

my take on the trumps is that they are in politics for the long game. so i dont think they will be bought off on some small ball BS. If anything of all their brands appear to have taken a major hit since entering politics. so im not really moved yet that trump is or will become a bought and paid for puppet.

Trump quickly changed his tune on Saudi Arabia when they showered him with gifts and a billion dollar arms deal. Not to mention we know that daddy Putin completely owns him considering Trumps tough talk is non existent when Russia comes up.

its a good thing if foreign countries buy american weapons.
1. american companies profit which should trickle down to the american worker and the US Government collects a tax on the transaction.
2. Its good that our "allies" are armed and can defend themselves so as to minimize US involvement in foreign conflict when possible but still further the american agenda as much as possible (via allies) by supplying the desired advanced weaponry should give the US some if not a lot of leverage in the region.
3. By supplying the weaponry to allies we remain at a tactical advantage when/if those allies become foes.


Putin:

Trump likes or thinks he can play ball with Putin because Putin is a nationalist. Like trump. The (english)royal family (via BP) and European banking tyrants have controlled most of the middle east's oil since the end of WW1. Just like western Europeans carved up africa to exploit the land and labor. these same banking tyrants have been implementing a central banking system the world over since ww1. Putin wants to control the oil in his region(the middle east). he has the most people in the area and therefore the biggest army and would take it if he could fund himself for the WW3. he cant fund himself however, cuz european bankers control(ed) the central banks. thats why he nationalized the central banks in russia last summer. (look it up). He still needs a stable economy and therefore a money supply to stay in office.

Speaking of the middle east and its oil reserves. If the area is destabilized (due to previous US and U.N. foreighn policy btw) and it takes russian or american forces to re-stabilize why should russia and america not benefit? Why are we protecting BP's oil reserves???? Or any other billionaire's oil reserves? and not be "paid" for the lives and tax dollars it cost to stabilize the area? Thats why trump said why not keep the oil? Putin clearly wants to keep as much of the oil reserves as well. So its common interest that Putin and trump share. British (BP) and European bankers formed most of the companies that own middle eastern oil reserves. Some of the control and profits have been given up to "royal" middle eastern families so as to ease the raping of the middle east's oil for European profits. Obviously "american" (aka international) bankers and american oil companies have also acquired interests in the middle east as well since then. But this all started out in WW1. And the brits dominated the middle east with firm graps and frankly have NOT eased that grip. Putin knows that. Trumps knows that. thats why he hired a career "Oil man" and former head of exxon to be secretary of state. The end game is control as much of the middle eastern oil as possible. If the brits cant do it anymore russia will. there is no reason for the US to continue give up control to either country. The middle east doesn't seem to have the ability to control the region on their own. at least responsibly.

And thats why Trump wanted to reset with Russia and thats why the rest of the world is vehemently against it. because the same international banking cartel that owns the oil fields also own part or most of the world wide media outlets via there investment banking outreach. To control the narrative. trump naively took all this (and much more) on when he simply and naively said, "why not keep the oil?"

When obama took office we were 10 trillion in debt. when he left we were 20 trillion in debt. those are real tax dollars that americans are going to pay. So we are paying for it. Both in dollars and lives. We bombed the crap out of the bank(middle east) with those tax dollars. So why not loot the safe(take the oil)? Why continue to let foreign bankers and BP (as well as some american oil companies) continue to loot the safe? Makes no sense. Obviously a larger mechanism is at play that doesn't appear to benefit the american people. Trump gets that. or the russian people for that matter. Putin gets that.

And frankly better energy exists. why are we even still stuck on oil? We are clearly still stuck on oil cuz banking tyrants still want us to consume their oil.

see these are big ball issue. These are real issues. In fact the only issues. whether or not someone stayed at mara-lago for a weekend for a miserable $1000 aint jack shxt. I dont care if they spent $10,000. trump is already a billionaire many times over. It would take hundred of millions to buy his influence. and its just a ruse to keep americans squabbling over complete and utter bullshxt. let's wake dafuk up!! and look at what is really happening in the world.

Wow I'm going to attempt to parse this world salad.

Saudi Arabia:
1. Look closer at the deal and realize that it a not what it's advertised to be. The majority of the benefits will go to hi tech workers at the defense contractors while the factory and majority of spending defense spending will eventually be in Saudi Arabia.

http://fortune.com/2017/05/24/saudi-us-saudi-arabi-weapons-deal/

2. Saudi Arabia is the causing a humanitarian crises in Yemen right now and they're the biggest state sponsor of terrorism. Them having more power and influence in the middle East is only going to further destabilize the region.

3. Trump has completely backed off his tough talk from the campaign. He talked a lot of crap about radical Islamic terrorism only to act like a bitch when he visited Saudi Arabia. This is just one example of how he can t be trusted and will say anything to make himself look good. Words matter and going back on a campaign promise not even a year into the presidency shows his true character.

4. Trump is a complete hypocrite. He blasted Hillary for Saudi Arabia donating 25 million to the Clinton foundation although she had zero ties it yet Saudi Arabia donates 100 million to Ivanka Trump's cause. The problem is that Ivanka Trump is a Senior Advisor to the White House, this looks like a clear example of buying influence, but I wouldn't care either except for the fact that Trump and his lemmings viciously attacked Clinton when her case was less dubious.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ivanka-trump-world-bank-womens-entrepreneur-fund-saudi-arabia-united-arab-emirates-100-million-a7748501.html


Putin:
You claim a lot of wild conspiracy theories about a secret group of bankers that run the world. I would actually like to see your sources because what we do know about Putin is that he is a wanna be dictator that has killed journalists, political opponents and most likely rigged elections. The reason that there are so many sanctions on him is precisely for this reason and the fact that he wants to destabilize Europe. Just like he will act in his best interests (like Trump the Nationalism is an act he puts on for gullible lemmings) I don't blame the rest of Europe for acting in their own interests. Putin is playing Trump to lift sanctions and gain access to oil in the attic, but Trump is too much of a moron to realize this. And no you just can't steal a countries oil, that goes against multiple treaties and is illegal. That's just a completely uninformed position.

In general your posts are uninformed, for example, a lot of the debt under Obama were a result of the Bush era policies while Obama actually reduced the deficit. In the majority of the years he was in office he reduced the deficit.

https://www.thebalance.com/national-debt-under-obama-3306293

Finally I can't take you seriously if you're not able to call Trump out for profiting off the Presidency. Not only has revenue from his resort increased by around 8 million, he's also costing you the taxpayer roughly 25 million dollars so far because he would rather golf than work. How is that making America great again?

[Pointgod]

Where I disagree with you is that I think it is time for the Democrats to be fiscally conservative but socially progressive and that isn't a oxymoron.

yes!!

Fiscally Conservative Moves
#1 Corporate Tax Reform yes the rate should be reduced to 15 to 20% but at the same time all the other deductions and special deals on reducing taxes to be eliminated. The reality is that the tax income for corporations especially financial institutions, energy sector, pharmaceuticals and agribusiness would likely pay more taxes. On the other hand small businesses would be rewarded.

yes

#2 Inheritance Taxes have it tax free to a level such as $2 million but then have a sliding scale starting at 25% to 50% this would create a substantial income stream.

good enough

#3 Put in a Harmonized Sales Tax lets say 3% which is basically a consumption tax but with things like food, children's clothes , rent, houses exempt and then States could add sales taxes to it. For low in#5come residence a roll back is available.
#4 Currently the USA pays 3.7 Trillion on healthcare freeze introduce a single payer system but not Bernie's plan which is much more intensive than the Canadian Plan. Utilizing Employer and Employee contributions. Over time the % of GDP on healthcare will decrease.

good enough for me.

Bottom line: Dems(libs) need to get off of identity politics as[b] almost their (sole?) platform. and then name calling the opposition. (such as racist, misogynist, elitists, etc.) Its a disgusting brand of politics to be honest. This is where the countries divide was born. Not anything Trump said or did. Indentity politics and name labelling the opposition is where the divide actually occurs.[/b]

Libs used to actually run on something. Not any more. identity politics and labeling conservatives racists is about all they got. And its disgusting. the entire liberal platform is built on entitlements which have proven to keep people down more than lift them up. Libs dont care though so long as the show up every 4 years and keep getting the votes. When Donald trump said, "what else do you have to lose!!??" the generationally poor began to scratch their heads and be like, really "what DO we have to lose?" And I dont advocate cutting off entitlements abruptly or anything...too many people are too entrenched in entitlements as a life style and life choice. But I also dont see any point in encouraging people to NOT work. and entitlement do that. and to have children that clearly cant afford. entitlements do that. I mean you have to be 16 to drive and pass a class and a few tests. 18 to join the military. and 21 to drink. But you can have a child at 13? 14? 15? With no way to pay for that child? We need to issue some type of "license" to procreate and entitlements. But to the libs, it looks like they see them kids growing up on entitlement as more voters. Thats why they want open boarders. More voters.

and this is where conservatives(cons) have issues as well. Birth control is a good thing. Perhaps even early term abortions 4 months or earlier?). The GOP should not only respect the women's right to choose but in fact encourage it. If you are not ready to have children you simply should not have them. Cons. need to get off the bible thumping bull crap platform and get right with science as well. to that end. We clearly need some type of "license" to have children. You must prove that you can afford those children and are mature enough to raise them or have the support system. If not, state controlled birth control??

Conservatives should also get on board with (somewhat) identity politics at least a bit if not fully support LBGTQ life style, etc, etc.This will help take the wind out the liberal's sails. But this will be tough for the Cons. base in entrenched in this silly religion. basically the bible belt needs to be slowly educated and brought around to the 21st century of mutual respect. it may not be for you, but everyone should fully respect everyone else. How ever they choose to live or feel so long as it doesn't impose those choices on others.[/quote]

And there you have it folks, let someone talk long enough and the true Bernie Bro comes out. It boils down to white mens feels. The fact is that that Republican policies have been proven to target certain races/genders/sexual orientations and the right use white identity politics to create the scary straw man of the scary black person, scary Mexican, scary Muslim etc. If you think ignoring the very real issues facing half the Democratic party in order to protect white people's feelings is a sound strategy well you'll definitely get your wish of burning America to a trash heap because you literally would have handed the country to Republicans (and we see how well that goes)

I have a hard time believing that you're a Bernie supporter because Bernie would have been the biggest entitlement President in history. What you write and what you claim to believe in is full of contradictions.

[dckingsfan]

The Obama Administration brought this country's economy back from the brink of a recession...

I wish you had left this part out - his administration put together one of the worst stimulus bills (think Solyndra) ever put into place. It did very little to actually get the economy going. The later part of his administration was much more stable in terms of continued growth.

We can debate whether it was the stimulus or something else that turned around the economy, but there is no debating that the economy was in terrible shape when Obama took office in 2009 and it was in MUCH better shape when he left the WH earlier this year.

Zards - the reasons of why and how are key. When have we gone into a recession and not come out of a recession? What caused the recession? How do you prevent it in the future.

That stimulus bill killed our debt load to the tune of nearly $1T. Not as much as the $24T from the Bush wars but still - there was a lot of waste there.

The why was a collusion between government and private industry on loans. We all agreed that to big to fail was a problem. So what did we get - more legislation that made it near to impossible to start small banks.

Like I said - I wish you didn't go there...

[Wizardspride]

One man's opinion.

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[dckingsfan]

Bottom line: Dems(libs) need to get off of identity politics as[b] almost their (sole?) platform. and then name calling the opposition. (such as racist, misogynist, elitists, etc.) Its a disgusting brand of politics to be honest. This is where the countries divide was born. Not anything Trump said or did. Indentity politics and name labelling the opposition is where the divide actually occurs.[/b]

There are two problems with this part of your post. The first is to lump all Democrats into the same pot. The second is to say that identity politics is there sole platform. It isn't.

Democrats have stayed together on the federal level as a voting block - but there is quite a bit of angst about where the party is headed - you need only watch the DNC battling to see who would be it head to understand this.

And you can go to their party platform to see what they try to stand for:
https://www.democrats.org/party-platform

[cammac]

Where I disagree with you is that I think it is time for the Democrats to be fiscally conservative but socially progressive and that isn't a oxymoron.

yes!!

Fiscally Conservative Moves
#1 Corporate Tax Reform yes the rate should be reduced to 15 to 20% but at the same time all the other deductions and special deals on reducing taxes to be eliminated. The reality is that the tax income for corporations especially financial institutions, energy sector, pharmaceuticals and agribusiness would likely pay more taxes. On the other hand small businesses would be rewarded.

yes

#2 Inheritance Taxes have it tax free to a level such as $2 million but then have a sliding scale starting at 25% to 50% this would create a substantial income stream.

good enough

#3 Put in a Harmonized Sales Tax lets say 3% which is basically a consumption tax but with things like food, children's clothes , rent, houses exempt and then States could add sales taxes to it. For low in#5come residence a roll back is available.
#4 Currently the USA pays 3.7 Trillion on healthcare freeze introduce a single payer system but not Bernie's plan which is much more intensive than the Canadian Plan. Utilizing Employer and Employee contributions. Over time the % of GDP on healthcare will decrease.

good enough for me.

Bottom line: Dems(libs) need to get off of identity politics as[b] almost their (sole?) platform. and then name calling the opposition. (such as racist, misogynist, elitists, etc.) Its a disgusting brand of politics to be honest. This is where the countries divide was born. Not anything Trump said or did. Indentity politics and name labelling the opposition is where the divide actually occurs.[/b]

Libs used to actually run on something. Not any more. identity politics and labeling conservatives racists is about all they got. And its disgusting. the entire liberal platform is built on entitlements which have proven to keep people down more than lift them up. Libs dont care though so long as the show up every 4 years and keep getting the votes. When Donald trump said, "what else do you have to lose!!??" the generationally poor began to scratch their heads and be like, really "what DO we have to lose?" And I dont advocate cutting off entitlements abruptly or anything...too many people are too entrenched in entitlements as a life style and life choice. But I also dont see any point in encouraging people to NOT work. and entitlement do that. and to have children that clearly cant afford. entitlements do that. I mean you have to be 16 to drive and pass a class and a few tests. 18 to join the military. and 21 to drink. But you can have a child at 13? 14? 15? With no way to pay for that child? We need to issue some type of "license" to procreate and entitlements. But to the libs, it looks like they see them kids growing up on entitlement as more voters. Thats why they want open boarders. More voters.

and this is where conservatives(cons) have issues as well. Birth control is a good thing. Perhaps even early term abortions 4 months or earlier?). The GOP should not only respect the women's right to choose but in fact encourage it. If you are not ready to have children you simply should not have them. Cons. need to get off the bible thumping bull crap platform and get right with science as well. to that end. We clearly need some type of "license" to have children. You must prove that you can afford those children and are mature enough to raise them or have the support system. If not, state controlled birth control??

Conservatives should also get on board with (somewhat) identity politics at least a bit if not fully support LBGTQ life style, etc, etc.This will help take the wind out the liberal's sails. But this will be tough for the Cons. base in entrenched in this silly religion. basically the bible belt needs to be slowly educated and brought around to the 21st century of mutual respect. it may not be for you, but everyone should fully respect everyone else. How ever they choose to live or feel so long as it doesn't impose those choices on others.

And there you have it folks, let someone talk long enough and the true Bernie Bro comes out. It boils down to white mens feels. The fact is that that Republican policies have been proven to target certain races/genders/sexual orientations and the right use white identity politics to create the scary straw man of the scary black person, scary Mexican, scary Muslim etc. If you think ignoring the very real issues facing half the Democratic party in order to protect white people's feelings is a sound strategy well you'll definitely get your wish of burning America to a trash heap because you literally would have handed the country to Republicans (and we see how well that goes)

I have a hard time believing that you're a Bernie supporter because Bernie would have been the biggest entitlement President in history. What you write and what you claim to believe in is full of contradictions.[/quote]

I think Bernie is a breath of fresh air in American politics and while I disagree with many including how he proposes single payer which is much more generous and expensive than other advanced social democracies. Socialism isn't a boogy man it is a way of advancing society making a educated forward thinking society. I hate to tell you that a strong federal government is more important than a hodge podge of states rights. Trump is bowing to business stripping financial restrictions, EPA and climate change which will just lead to another financial crash. If you look back to the financial collapse only Canada and Australia weren't affected like other major countries because of strong federal restrictions on financial institutions.

The USA trail most advanced democracies in civil rights in that abortion is still a topic of debate and at the same time many states restriction education contraception and safe sex. I could list a litany of other areas where the USA trails the world. The one glaring issue is how to deal with 13 million illegal residents. Yes likely DACA will be resolved but in most cases those illegal residents are benefiting American society doing jobs that Americans will not do. Is it not better to legalize them let them pay taxes and take the children who in most cases are born in the USA out of the shadows. Yes border security is important and needs to be addressed and Canada is affected in that if the current flow continues we will have over 50,000 refugees crossing the border from the USA into Canada. In August over 6000 crossed the undefended border.

[montestewart]

Bottom line: Dems(libs) need to get off of identity politics as[b] almost their (sole?) platform. and then name calling the opposition. (such as racist, misogynist, elitists, etc.) Its a disgusting brand of politics to be honest. This is where the countries divide was born. Not anything Trump said or did. Indentity politics and name labelling the opposition is where the divide actually occurs.[/b]

There are two problems with this part of your post. The first is to lump all Democrats into the same pot. The second is to say that identity politics is there sole platform. It isn't.

Democrats have stayed together on the federal level as a voting block - but there is quite a bit of angst about where the party is headed - you need only watch the DNC battling to see who would be it head to understand this.

And you can go to their party platform to see what they try to stand for:
https://www.democrats.org/party-platform

It confused me too, because I can usually keep track of general positions, and it didn't seem like a Pointgod statement. Look closer, it was actually a quote of STD20's post.

[payitforward]

...The Dems can't put up boring policy wonk stiffs like Al Gore and Michael Dukakis and Hillary Clinton. When a Bernie comes along, you hitch your wagon to that train. Lurch to the left if that's what it takes.

Just hope Bernie is staying healthy, as I think the Democrats will run him in'20 & that he'll boot the current a'hole out with ease.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

...Our criminal justice system is unquestionably flawed and we incarcerate far too many people (of all races) for non violent crimes and misdemeanors that arguably shouldn't be crimes at all. We would do better if we spent some of that money on more preventative measures like drug treatment and mental institutions. But let's not act like this would be some kind of magic bullet. The crime rate in several U.S. cities is appallingly high and letting out minor criminals and non-violent criminals isn't going to fix the problem.

What we really need are more jobs for the unskilled workers. Employed people don't have time to commit crime, and they have more to lose if they get caught. Also, having a job provides a sense of self-fulfillment and more of a sense of belonging to the community. This is why I favor Trump's economic policies of trade protectionism and restriction of low skill immigrants.

There are no magic bullets when it comes to issues like these. But lowering incarceration rates would be a good thing all the same. For one thing, jail time doesn't make it more likely that once out of jail a person is likely to find a job.

One terribly complex problem is that there just are not going to be "more jobs for the unskilled workers." Protectionist trade policies won't help with that -- how would they? Moreover, they tend to raise costs. For example, have you looked at what Trump's protectionism has done to the price of lumber?

As to "low skill immigrants," I take you to be pointing mostly at Hispanic immigrants from Mexico and/or Central America -- is that right? If so, it's unclear to me where they have taken jobs from from anyone. Certainly a large proportion of them do jobs others won't seek or accept -- agricultural labor, for example. At the same time, I'm sure there are some cases where you would be right.

But the big issue is that low-skill jobs are going away. & this trend is structural; it's based on technology; it's not changing; it's certainly not something that trade policies can change. All protectionism can do is artificially buoy up our ability to do things economically in the US that we can't do at a competitive level of efficiency. Since all economic growth is based on increased productivity, that's a poor idea.

In short, it would be better to say that what we need is more jobs for high-skill workers! & social policies in every field that help us increase the percentage of our citizenry that has those skills.

I liked your post payitforward yes education is one of the keys to racial harmony. Nate can use statistics which is nice and are accurate but they are also just numbers that do not take social factors and the ability of people to change their place in life. It is interesting in the NAFTA process the USA negotiators are hounding Mexico about its unfair labor policies and using monetary incentives to lure business and factories to Mexico. At the same time many right to work states and most states compete to give significant benefits to companies. A prime example is the proposed Foxconn investment in Wisconsin which is likely a fraud. The Trump administration is also working at warp speed to eliminate workers safety and EPA regulations that protect society.

The reality is that education is inferior in minority areas of the USA which does create major problems in that it doesn't allow upwards mobility of people. Does a student in South East Chicago get a similar education to a student in North East Chicago. Lack of future and the inability of getting a job creates the reality that illegal practices are one of the few ways to move up the ladder.

Yes this is over simplified but isn't different than utilizing statistics that are just numbers without context.

Miscegenation
Pluralism
Malleable
Intractable
Stratification
Striation
One point
A spectrum

I just had 8 things on my mind...



No, seriously, I just had some thoughts that were on my mind and those are eight particular words, or terms, or concepts which I wish everyone had clarity about as to meaning.

Why?

Just because.




Sent from my Moto G (4) using RealGM mobile app

[payitforward]

Thats said, obama was just a great politician so i thought it would translate to great world leader and lead america back into being a world power and creating real opportunity for all americans. I thought he would get stuff done that moved the needle. Things didn't really change and instead costs kind of skyrocketed. In the end made Obama a closet socialist/globalist-which i dont necessarily oppose.

The Obama Administration brought this country's economy back from the brink of a recession, dramatically reduced the unemployment rate, and put in place a law that has reduced the percentage of Americans without health insurance to the lowest level ever.

I'd call that "putting America first."

Thus far, Trump has been all bluster and threats. Get back to me when he has actually accomplished something.

the economy has been 100% trump. the dow. the credit markets. the money supply. employment participation. unempoloyment. everything began to turn hard right away from the recession on November 8th because trump campaigned on 15% corporate tax rate which would repatriate trillions of (american business) dollars currently paying as low as 10% in countries like Ireland (Apple). as well as bring back manufacturing. keeping current manufacturing in place. get out of bad paris accord where the US who has 1/100th the carbon foot print of India and china yet have more restrictions. etc. etc.

these are the reasons your 401K was down in october 2017 from its high in 2008 and instead of being down in now 10-15% higher depending on how aggressive your holdings. These are all Trump. The economy has all been trump. No way around that. None.

I'm sorry. I rarely feel moved to write in quite this way, but, stilldropin20, you are an utter idiot.

Trump has had no effect whatever on the economy. If anything his anti-nafta moves have raised prices (e.g. on Canadian lumber -- making houses more expensive to build).

The economy didn't "begin to turn" one bit after his election, & it hasn't since his election. The economy kept going along as it has. Employment continued to raise modestly month by month -- as it had under Obama -- & economic growth hasn't changed either.

Above all, to confuse a rise in the dow with "the economy" is just too dimwitted to let pass. Nor were we "in a recession" when Trump was elected. Nor do you have the slightest notion (b/c no one could) of what the Dow would have done had Clinton been elected. Or Sanders, had he been the candidate.

Your analysis of why the dow was down from its '08 high is also idiotic -- you made it up!

There is no tax policy that would repatriate trillions of dollars. & manufacturing, globally, is losing jobs every single day & won't stop losing jobs. China today, vs. 10 years ago, has 25% fewer people working in manufacturing.

Any thoughts as to why that is? Actually... any thoughts at all?

[payitforward]

...Since im a licensed realtor and have been developing small scale real estate projects in chicago for 25 years I can speak intelligently on this. As many of you know I am also a dentist. ...

1. What an asinine claim! Being a licensed realtor, on its own, is no reason to think you can speak intelligently on this or any subject.

2. I'm glad for you that your dental practice is thriving again. I really don't think that's a piece of economic evidence about... anything at all.

Old saying: 'the less you know the better a "know it all" you are in a position to be.' Congratulations on contributing some proof points to that. Yikes!

[stilldropin20]

Trump quickly changed his tune on Saudi Arabia when they showered him with gifts and a billion dollar arms deal. Not to mention we know that daddy Putin completely owns him considering Trumps tough talk is non existent when Russia comes up.

its a good thing if foreign countries buy american weapons.
1. american companies profit which should trickle down to the american worker and the US Government collects a tax on the transaction.
2. Its good that our "allies" are armed and can defend themselves so as to minimize US involvement in foreign conflict when possible but still further the american agenda as much as possible (via allies) by supplying the desired advanced weaponry should give the US some if not a lot of leverage in the region.
3. By supplying the weaponry to allies we remain at a tactical advantage when/if those allies become foes.


Putin:

Trump likes or thinks he can play ball with Putin because Putin is a nationalist. Like trump. The (english)royal family (via BP) and European banking tyrants have controlled most of the middle east's oil since the end of WW1. Just like western Europeans carved up africa to exploit the land and labor. these same banking tyrants have been implementing a central banking system the world over since ww1. Putin wants to control the oil in his region(the middle east). he has the most people in the area and therefore the biggest army and would take it if he could fund himself for the WW3. he cant fund himself however, cuz european bankers control(ed) the central banks. thats why he nationalized the central banks in russia last summer. (look it up). He still needs a stable economy and therefore a money supply to stay in office.

Speaking of the middle east and its oil reserves. If the area is destabilized (due to previous US and U.N. foreighn policy btw) and it takes russian or american forces to re-stabilize why should russia and america not benefit? Why are we protecting BP's oil reserves???? Or any other billionaire's oil reserves? and not be "paid" for the lives and tax dollars it cost to stabilize the area? Thats why trump said why not keep the oil? Putin clearly wants to keep as much of the oil reserves as well. So its common interest that Putin and trump share. British (BP) and European bankers formed most of the companies that own middle eastern oil reserves. Some of the control and profits have been given up to "royal" middle eastern families so as to ease the raping of the middle east's oil for European profits. Obviously "american" (aka international) bankers and american oil companies have also acquired interests in the middle east as well since then. But this all started out in WW1. And the brits dominated the middle east with firm graps and frankly have NOT eased that grip. Putin knows that. Trumps knows that. thats why he hired a career "Oil man" and former head of exxon to be secretary of state. The end game is control as much of the middle eastern oil as possible. If the brits cant do it anymore russia will. there is no reason for the US to continue give up control to either country. The middle east doesn't seem to have the ability to control the region on their own. at least responsibly.

And thats why Trump wanted to reset with Russia and thats why the rest of the world is vehemently against it. because the same international banking cartel that owns the oil fields also own part or most of the world wide media outlets via there investment banking outreach. To control the narrative. trump naively took all this (and much more) on when he simply and naively said, "why not keep the oil?"

When obama took office we were 10 trillion in debt. when he left we were 20 trillion in debt. those are real tax dollars that americans are going to pay. So we are paying for it. Both in dollars and lives. We bombed the crap out of the bank(middle east) with those tax dollars. So why not loot the safe(take the oil)? Why continue to let foreign bankers and BP (as well as some american oil companies) continue to loot the safe? Makes no sense. Obviously a larger mechanism is at play that doesn't appear to benefit the american people. Trump gets that. or the russian people for that matter. Putin gets that.

And frankly better energy exists. why are we even still stuck on oil? We are clearly still stuck on oil cuz banking tyrants still want us to consume their oil.

see these are big ball issue. These are real issues. In fact the only issues. whether or not someone stayed at mara-lago for a weekend for a miserable $1000 aint jack shxt. I dont care if they spent $10,000. trump is already a billionaire many times over. It would take hundred of millions to buy his influence. and its just a ruse to keep americans squabbling over complete and utter bullshxt. let's wake dafuk up!! and look at what is really happening in the world.

Wow I'm going to attempt to parse this world salad.

Saudi Arabia:
1. Look closer at the deal and realize that it a not what it's advertised to be. The majority of the benefits will go to hi tech workers at the defense contractors while the factory and majority of spending defense spending will eventually be in Saudi Arabia.

http://fortune.com/2017/05/24/saudi-us-saudi-arabi-weapons-deal/

2. Saudi Arabia is the causing a humanitarian crises in Yemen right now and they're the biggest state sponsor of terrorism. Them having more power and influence in the middle East is only going to further destabilize the region.

3. Trump has completely backed off his tough talk from the campaign. He talked a lot of crap about radical Islamic terrorism only to act like a bitch when he visited Saudi Arabia. This is just one example of how he can t be trusted and will say anything to make himself look good. Words matter and going back on a campaign promise not even a year into the presidency shows his true character.

4. Trump is a complete hypocrite. He blasted Hillary for Saudi Arabia donating 25 million to the Clinton foundation although she had zero ties it yet Saudi Arabia donates 100 million to Ivanka Trump's cause. The problem is that Ivanka Trump is a Senior Advisor to the White House, this looks like a clear example of buying influence, but I wouldn't care either except for the fact that Trump and his lemmings viciously attacked Clinton when her case was less dubious.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ivanka-trump-world-bank-womens-entrepreneur-fund-saudi-arabia-united-arab-emirates-100-million-a7748501.html


Putin:
You claim a lot of wild conspiracy theories about a secret group of bankers that run the world. I would actually like to see your sources because what we do know about Putin is that he is a wanna be dictator that has killed journalists, political opponents and most likely rigged elections. The reason that there are so many sanctions on him is precisely for this reason and the fact that he wants to destabilize Europe. Just like he will act in his best interests (like Trump the Nationalism is an act he puts on for gullible lemmings) I don't blame the rest of Europe for acting in their own interests. Putin is playing Trump to lift sanctions and gain access to oil in the attic, but Trump is too much of a moron to realize this. And no you just can't steal a countries oil, that goes against multiple treaties and is illegal. That's just a completely uninformed position.

In general your posts are uninformed, for example, a lot of the debt under Obama were a result of the Bush era policies while Obama actually reduced the deficit. In the majority of the years he was in office he reduced the deficit.

https://www.thebalance.com/national-debt-under-obama-3306293

Finally I can't take you seriously if you're not able to call Trump out for profiting off the Presidency. Not only has revenue from his resort increased by around 8 million, he's also costing you the taxpayer roughly 25 million dollars so far because he would rather golf than work. How is that making America great again?

this is an 8th grade history class level understanding of the world. Which makes it hard to discuss with you. I grew out of this level of understanding when i was 18 and in the US NAvy serving aboard the the USS Parche as an ET/CT tech (now intelligence officer). That was nearly 30 years ago. Sorry, I'm calling rank here. You need to read more. learn more. Try not to look for the gotchya moment when reading and learning. Just absorb. For decades. just absorb.

[stilldropin20]

Bottom line: Dems(libs) need to get off of identity politics as[b] almost their (sole?) platform. and then name calling the opposition. (such as racist, misogynist, elitists, etc.) Its a disgusting brand of politics to be honest. This is where the countries divide was born. Not anything Trump said or did. Indentity politics and name labelling the opposition is where the divide actually occurs.[/b]

There are two problems with this part of your post. The first is to lump all Democrats into the same pot. The second is to say that identity politics is there sole platform. It isn't.

Democrats have stayed together on the federal level as a voting block - but there is quite a bit of angst about where the party is headed - you need only watch the DNC battling to see who would be it head to understand this.

And you can go to their party platform to see what they try to stand for:
https://www.democrats.org/party-platform

It confused me too, because I can usually keep track of general positions, and it didn't seem like a Pointgod statement. Look closer, it was actually a quote of STD20's post.

my mind wanders. i often ramble on tangential topics without much explanation. What is confusing? I'll try to explain.

[stilldropin20]

...Since im a licensed realtor and have been developing small scale real estate projects in chicago for 25 years I can speak intelligently on this. As many of you know I am also a dentist. ...

1. What an asinine claim! Being a licensed realtor, on its own, is no reason to think you can speak intelligently on this or any subject.

2. I'm glad for you that your dental practice is thriving again. I really don't think that's a piece of economic evidence about... anything at all.

Old saying: 'the less you know the better a "know it all" you are in a position to be.' Congratulations on contributing some proof points to that. Yikes!

i cant offer my anecdotal evidence as part of the conversation? I mean, do we have a bunch of scientists with scientific evidence supporting all of their positions in this thread? Did i enter the mensa board? No? Wait. No? We're all just rando guys down the street with an opinion? Cool. Thats just my "got a dime for a cup of coffee" opinion then. If that's OK with you?

[montestewart]

Spoiler:

The Obama Administration brought this country's economy back from the brink of a recession, dramatically reduced the unemployment rate, and put in place a law that has reduced the percentage of Americans without health insurance to the lowest level ever.

I'd call that "putting America first."

Thus far, Trump has been all bluster and threats. Get back to me when he has actually accomplished something.

the economy has been 100% trump. the dow. the credit markets. the money supply. employment participation. unempoloyment. everything began to turn hard right away from the recession on November 8th because trump campaigned on 15% corporate tax rate which would repatriate trillions of (american business) dollars currently paying as low as 10% in countries like Ireland (Apple). as well as bring back manufacturing. keeping current manufacturing in place. get out of bad paris accord where the US who has 1/100th the carbon foot print of India and china yet have more restrictions. etc. etc.

these are the reasons your 401K was down in october 2017 from its high in 2008 and instead of being down in now 10-15% higher depending on how aggressive your holdings. These are all Trump. The economy has all been trump. No way around that. None.

I'm sorry. I rarely feel moved to write in quite this way, but, stilldropin20,

you are an utter idiot.

Spoiler:

Trump has had no effect whatever on the economy. If anything his anti-nafta moves have raised prices (e.g. on Canadian lumber -- making houses more expensive to build).

The economy didn't "begin to turn" one bit after his election, & it hasn't since his election. The economy kept going along as it has. Employment continued to raise modestly month by month -- as it had under Obama -- & economic growth hasn't changed either.

Above all, to confuse a rise in the dow with "the economy" is just too dimwitted to let pass. Nor were we "in a recession" when Trump was elected. Nor do you have the slightest notion (b/c no one could) of what the Dow would have done had Clinton been elected. Or Sanders, had he been the candidate.

Your analysis of why the dow was down from its '08 high is also idiotic -- you made it up!

There is no tax policy that would repatriate trillions of dollars. & manufacturing, globally, is losing jobs every single day & won't stop losing jobs. China today, vs. 10 years ago, has 25% fewer people working in manufacturing.

Any thoughts as to why that is? Actually... any thoughts at all?

PIF, I assumed you or Zonker would respond to this. There's an element of baiting happening here, and you're way too smart to fall for it. Try to skip the name calling, because your arguments (which I agree with) do the job just fine.

I'll admit, there is comedy gold in, "When you need a realtor who's also a dentist, call..."

[stilldropin20]

I wish you had left this part out - his administration put together one of the worst stimulus bills (think Solyndra) ever put into place. It did very little to actually get the economy going. The later part of his administration was much more stable in terms of continued growth.

We can debate whether it was the stimulus or something else that turned around the economy, but there is no debating that the economy was in terrible shape when Obama took office in 2009 and it was in MUCH better shape when he left the WH earlier this year.

Zards - the reasons of why and how are key. When have we gone into a recession and not come out of a recession? What caused the recession? How do you prevent it in the future.

That stimulus bill killed our debt load to the tune of nearly $1T. Not as much as the $24T from the Bush wars but still - there was a lot of waste there.

The why was a collusion between government and private industry on loans. We all agreed that to big to fail was a problem. So what did we get - more legislation that made it near to impossible to start small banks.

Like I said - I wish you didn't go there...

i'd add that small banks get their moeny form big banks. Big banks lend money to small banks when they have confidence in the markets to repay. Then there is "hard" money lenders that get their money often from private individuals who also need confidence in the markets. There is more to it than this, obviously.

Then on the flip side, there is also world (and US) politics at play when international big banks open or constrict the money supply.