RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #44 (Dwight Howard)

[Outside]

I hate that my involvement is sporadic, but it is what it is.

I feel your pain. I'm in the same boat. Circumstances being what they are -- work, family, other obligations, life -- it's been harder than I expected to dedicate the necessary time to participate. It makes me appreciate the effort of those who are seeing it through.

[Outside]

7.1 Earthquake: Temporarily Still Alive & Uninjured In Mexico City

Makes my life obligations preventing me from participating here seem trivial. If you see the four horsemen coming down the street, I'll vote for Cousy just on general principles.

[Outside]

Seems like everyone is retreating into the corner of a different player and making a stand. First player to three votes wins the thread?

Looking at the nominees so far...

Bob Cousy - He's coming up soon for me. MVP, 10x first team all-league, six titles, great playmaker and leader. I'm hesitant to penalize guys like Cousy, Baylor, and Thurmond based on current notions of efficiency, because all those awards and titles seem to say that efficiency wasn't considered that big of a deal at the time.

Dwight Howard - The stats say he had a nice 8-year peak, but that includes the end at Orlando, a year with the Lakers, and a year in Houston, and those were not years to promote someone's candidacy on an all-time list. It's a tale of two careers with him -- he was really good through 2010-11 in Orlando, then the double whammy of his back injury and Dysfunctional Dwight hit, and he hasn't been the same since. There's some darkness in these recent years that take away a lot of the shine of the earlier years for me. I don't have him until much, much farther down the list

Allen Iverson - Tough dude, carried a team, incredible scorer. When people talk about his character issues, I think some conflate actual basketball character issues with the whole dreads/tats/rap/posse/urban vibe that he popularlized in the league. To me, the first part (the basketball issues) was a real thing, but the second part should be irrelevant to ranking him as a player (though I find it quite interesting). Everyone at this point is flawed in some fashion, but I'm conflicted about how much his flaws should count against him. Not the most efficient player, though I don't count it too much against him, for a variety of reasons (though I count it against him more than I do Cousy, who played in an era when efficiency was given far less importance).

Elvin Hayes - Another flawed player. Great longevity and production, but had issues meshing with teammates and wasn't known as a good defender. Hard to deny the numbers, but how to judge the chemistry issues?

Alex English - I'm not there yet with English. He was a great scorer, but those Issel/English teams could score with anybody and couldn't stop anybody. Fun to watch, but they always seemed harmless, and English's scoring had the feel of empty calories. Not much of a playoff resume.

Tracy McGrady - As I've mentioned before, I count postseason performance heavily, and the "didn't get out of the first round" thing is a thing for me. Sorry twolves.

Wes Unseld -- A lot to like, though I've pointed out his limitations. But unlike several others here, he shines in the BBIQ and chemistry/teammate areas. Hard for me to vote for him when I consider Thurmond significantly better, but I guess I need to get over that.

First cut -- Cousy, Iverson, Hayes, Unseld.

Not thrilled with my options here. My preference would be Thurmond, Cowens, Dominique, and maybe James Worthy, but those guys have no traction, and I don't want to add to a 15-way playoff, sooo...

Vote: Cousy
Alternate: Iverson

[euroleague]

Seems like everyone is retreating into the corner of a different player and making a stand. First player to three votes wins the thread?

Looking at the nominees so far...

Bob Cousy - He's coming up soon for me. MVP, 10x first team all-league, six titles, great playmaker and leader. I'm hesitant to penalize guys like Cousy, Baylor, and Thurmond based on current notions of efficiency, because all those awards and titles seem to say that efficiency wasn't considered that big of a deal at the time.

Dwight Howard - The stats say he had a nice 8-year peak, but that includes the end at Orlando, a year with the Lakers, and a year in Houston, and those were not years to promote someone's candidacy on an all-time list. It's a tale of two careers with him -- he was really good through 2010-11 in Orlando, then the double whammy of his back injury and Dysfunctional Dwight hit, and he hasn't been the same since. There's some darkness in these recent years that take away a lot of the shine of the earlier years for me. I don't have him until much, much farther down the list

Allen Iverson - Tough dude, carried a team, incredible scorer. When people talk about his character issues, I think some conflate actual basketball character issues with the whole dreads/tats/rap/posse/urban vibe that he popularlized in the league. To me, the first part (the basketball issues) was a real thing, but the second part should be irrelevant to ranking him as a player (though I find it quite interesting). Everyone at this point is flawed in some fashion, but I'm conflicted about how much his flaws should count against him. Not the most efficient player, though I don't count it too much against him, for a variety of reasons (though I count it against him more than I do Cousy, who played in an era when efficiency was given far less importance).

Elvin Hayes - Another flawed player. Great longevity and production, but had issues meshing with teammates and wasn't known as a good defender. Hard to deny the numbers, but how to judge the chemistry issues?

Alex English - I'm not there yet with English. He was a great scorer, but those Issel/English teams could score with anybody and couldn't stop anybody. Fun to watch, but they always seemed harmless, and English's scoring had the feel of empty calories. Not much of a playoff resume.

Tracy McGrady - As I've mentioned before, I count postseason performance heavily, and the "didn't get out of the first round" thing is a thing for me. Sorry twolves.

Wes Unseld -- A lot to like, though I've pointed out his limitations. But unlike several others here, he shines in the BBIQ and chemistry/teammate areas. Hard for me to vote for him when I consider Thurmond significantly better, but I guess I need to get over that.

First cut -- Cousy, Iverson, Hayes, Unseld.

Not thrilled with my options here. My preference would be Thurmond, Cowens, Dominique, and maybe James Worthy, but those guys have no traction, and I don't want to add to a 15-way playoff, sooo...

Vote: Cousy
Alternate: Iverson

We have mechanisms to handle ties. You shouldn't vote just to match others.

Also, your vote won't count if you aren't in the approved voting list.

[janmagn]

Vote: Bill Walton
2nd vote: Bob Cousy

Walton had a peak that none of the remaining guys can get close to. Dominant offensively, dominant defensively. Led his team to a championship. Got his prime cut by injuries, but could still be a valuable and producive player

Lähetetty minun LG-M250 laitteesta Tapatalkilla

[pandrade83]

Too early for Walton. He really only has that one year. Westbrook/Howard have a sustained peak.

Harden: 2 fewer high impact seasons vs. Westbrook/Tmac each; comparable peaks vs. each. His playoff behavior is troubling to me. Not to say that Westbrook's never had a bad playoff game, but I never get the sense that he stops trying. Harden has this bizzare behavior of just totally checking out - and Game 6 last year vs. the Spurs wasn't the first time. I'm not sure if it's because his game is more dependent on the refs or it's more gimmicky and easier to stop in a win or go home situation or what - but he's not a guy I want on my team in a Game 7. Keep in mind that Presti moved him over $4 M after the Miami Finals. I know Harden was only in year 3 but he was awful in that Finals. Westbrook legit competes every time.

Taking Wilkins over McGrady or Westbrook is reasonable. But it's reasonable on a longevity basis - saying that his peak is comparable to Tmac/Westbrook is a false equivalency; it's not just the eye test either or the raw stats.

Wilkins peaks at BPM +4.9, VORP 5.2 & WS 12.2.
Westbrook peaks at BPM +15.6, VORP 12.4 & WS 14. He has at least 2 years of higher scores in all categories better than Wilkins' best.
McGrady peaks at BPM +9.7, VORP 8.7 & 16.1 WS. He also has at least 2 years of higher scores in all categories better than Wilkins' best.

The driver of those results is that Westbrook/Tmac contribute in ways beyond scoring far beyond what Wilkins does.

Westbrook has scored very highly on RAPM; Top 5 finishes each of last 2 years, Top 10 finishes each of last 3. McGrady has lower RAPM scores; but in mediocre team situations with just one star who plays monster minutes, I'm always dubious of RAPM; I don't think Wilkins would've done well on the metric aside from his injury year.

[LA Bird]

1. Dwight Howard
One of the better remaining peaks and his top seasons aren't far off from somebody like Ewing who got voted in a while ago. Both his 2009 and 2011 season are around top 30 peaks all time and are more than enough to win the MVP in some seasons with weaker competition. Longevity is solid although his last few seasons are rather mediocre compared to his Orlando years. A top 15 defender all time and probably the best offensive player left among the defensive GOATs. Moved Howard up a few spots in my rankings the last few days since I didn't realize he had already played 950+ games.

Alternate: Dikembe Mutombo

[THKNKG]

Vote: Deke
2nd: Dwight

Deke is one of the best defenders ever, had a really big amount of impact, and did it for a long time. He stayed within his bounds, and did what he did well.

Zo would likely be my next choice, but I picked Dwight as he's the best of those currently being voted on IMO.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #48 (13 votes, requiring 7 for majority):

Bob Cousy - 3 (Outside, euroleague, Pablo Novi)
Dwight Howard - 2 (trex_8063, LABird)
Willis Reed - 1 (dhsilv2)
Allen Iverson - 1 (Winsome Gerbil)
Wes Unseld - 1 (pandrade83)
Tracy McGrady - 1 (twolves97)
Elvin Hayes - 1 (scabbarista)
Alex English - 1 (penbeast0)
Bill Walton - 1 (janmagn)
Dikembe Mutombo - 1 (micahclay)

So all of the one-vote recipients are eliminated. To the remaining two candidates, one vote transfers to Cousy, three transfer to Howard, the rest become ghost votes.

Howard - 5 (trex_8063, LABird, michaclay, pandrade83, dhsilv2)
Cousy - 4 (euroleague, Outside, Pablo Novi, janmagn)

The runoff between these two begins now. If you did not cast a ballot for either, please specify your preference and why.

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[penbeast0]

I was much higher on Howard in the last project. His last few years have soured me on him quite a bit. Cousy was also something of a weak link at times in the second half of his career (though not a locker room problem ever that I've heard) and his era where he was a legit All Time Great was appreciably weaker.

Runoff vote: Dwight Howard

[Outside]

Seems like everyone is retreating into the corner of a different player and making a stand. First player to three votes wins the thread?

Looking at the nominees so far...

Bob Cousy - He's coming up soon for me. MVP, 10x first team all-league, six titles, great playmaker and leader. I'm hesitant to penalize guys like Cousy, Baylor, and Thurmond based on current notions of efficiency, because all those awards and titles seem to say that efficiency wasn't considered that big of a deal at the time.

Dwight Howard - The stats say he had a nice 8-year peak, but that includes the end at Orlando, a year with the Lakers, and a year in Houston, and those were not years to promote someone's candidacy on an all-time list. It's a tale of two careers with him -- he was really good through 2010-11 in Orlando, then the double whammy of his back injury and Dysfunctional Dwight hit, and he hasn't been the same since. There's some darkness in these recent years that take away a lot of the shine of the earlier years for me. I don't have him until much, much farther down the list

Allen Iverson - Tough dude, carried a team, incredible scorer. When people talk about his character issues, I think some conflate actual basketball character issues with the whole dreads/tats/rap/posse/urban vibe that he popularlized in the league. To me, the first part (the basketball issues) was a real thing, but the second part should be irrelevant to ranking him as a player (though I find it quite interesting). Everyone at this point is flawed in some fashion, but I'm conflicted about how much his flaws should count against him. Not the most efficient player, though I don't count it too much against him, for a variety of reasons (though I count it against him more than I do Cousy, who played in an era when efficiency was given far less importance).

Elvin Hayes - Another flawed player. Great longevity and production, but had issues meshing with teammates and wasn't known as a good defender. Hard to deny the numbers, but how to judge the chemistry issues?

Alex English - I'm not there yet with English. He was a great scorer, but those Issel/English teams could score with anybody and couldn't stop anybody. Fun to watch, but they always seemed harmless, and English's scoring had the feel of empty calories. Not much of a playoff resume.

Tracy McGrady - As I've mentioned before, I count postseason performance heavily, and the "didn't get out of the first round" thing is a thing for me. Sorry twolves.

Wes Unseld -- A lot to like, though I've pointed out his limitations. But unlike several others here, he shines in the BBIQ and chemistry/teammate areas. Hard for me to vote for him when I consider Thurmond significantly better, but I guess I need to get over that.

First cut -- Cousy, Iverson, Hayes, Unseld.

Not thrilled with my options here. My preference would be Thurmond, Cowens, Dominique, and maybe James Worthy, but those guys have no traction, and I don't want to add to a 15-way playoff, sooo...

Vote: Cousy
Alternate: Iverson

We have mechanisms to handle ties. You shouldn't vote just to match others.

Also, your vote won't count if you aren't in the approved voting list.

I'll address your second point first -- As far as I know, I haven't been kicked off of the approved voting list, and in any case, the mods would be the ones to deal with that.

As for your first comment, I've already said that I'll argue for Thurmond again once he gains some hint of traction among the group. I do believe Thurmond is the best player not yet voted in, but it seems rude to be missing half the threads over the past couple of weeks, then pop in at the tail end of this one with Thurmond banners and noisemakers. If I'm going to promote Thurmond, which I will again at some point, it will be at the beginning of a thread so that others can consider his candidacy seriously, not as a last-minute vote of conscience, though I'll say something about him from time to time just to keep him in the collective consciousness of the group.

This whole process has been enjoyable, and the most interesting part has been seeing how others assess players and listening to arguments so that I can potentially look at individual players in a new light. The voting matters, but it's an outcome of the more interesting and important discussions. I try to look at each new thread anew (to an extent, anyway) and consider candidates with an open mind. We are in the midst of a group of players who are essentially interchangeable in the rankings and whose place depends on your criteria and your familiarity with each player. Each of these players has a case. I really do like Cousy; that is not a fake vote (even if I'd take a couple of other guys ahead of him). I had him higher on my original list, and I've moved him down based on arguments regarding his playoff performance and efficiency, but it's not a crime to vote in a guy with his resume. He was a great player, even if analysis of his numbers puts a few dings in his armor.

I base my rankings more on the eyeball test and my own judgment, which goes against the general approach of most people in the group. We happen to be at a point where I have a particular affinity for players like Thurmond, Cowens, and Worthy who might not be considered at this point based on stats alone. Worthy, for example, was a great, great player whose numbers were lower than they could've been because he played on such great teams, but he performed at an exceptional level on the highest stage, and I value him more than a guy who had better regular season numbers on teams that never sniffed a championship. But as far as I know, no one has considered him yet, maybe even mentioned him, and I'm going to be selective about promoting guys like him so that I don't just annoy everyone else like a gadfly at city council meetings.

So I'm fine voting for Cousy and Iverson, even if I grumble about it, but even my grumbling is strategic because it allows me to say a word for Thurmond, Cowens, and Worthy, laying the groundwork for getting them in later.

[dhsilv2]

For those picking Howard and people who are longevity guys T-Mac had an 8 year prime and 15 years total it's not great but it's solid. Howard voters why pick Howard when he has same longevity and lower peak with horrid intangibles?

Life isn't always fair. T-mac maybe did have a better peak than Howard, there's a good case for it. I however tend to think his 2011 was better than Tmac's 03. I value defensive bigs who can still score rather highly, until really the last few years (the trend has been going since 01, but the last 2-4 years have really accelerated it) I'd take a great big over a great small pretty easily. Anyway to the point I can't blame Tmac for losing in the playoffs, but I can't give him any credit for that either. Howard made it to an NBA finals. It sucks that T-mac never had the help he needed, but I don't like just assuming he would have done better with more help. I do think he'll get traction around 50-55 for me, but we still have MVPs on the board and guys who won titles as the best or second best guy.

I think I'm going to have to think hard about Tmac vs Westbrook. Westbrook is a guy I think has style issues, but his MVP and playoff success are there to rank him over Tmac. I do however think especially defensively that Tmac was the better player, just in the wrong era. That'll be one for me to think more on as we get close to those two.

You put T-Mac on the Spurs for ginobili or on the lakers for kobe or the pistons for chauncey or the or the celtics for pierce or the lakers for pau or the heat for wade or the mavs for terry or the warriors for klay or cavs for kyrie what happens? They win the championship and probably dominate more than before. I'm thinking about this as in a vacuum and is T-Mac better than all the names I've seen thus far in a vacuum, in my opinion yes. Yeah Howard made it to the finals, which he wouldn't have if KG stayed healthy and then we'd be talking about his 2nd round exit, but he had a roster perfectly molded to fit his skillset in a weak conference. You can't honestly believe T-Mac couldn't have done the same with a supporting cast of equal talent.
PS Howards offense is pretty clearly overrated it isn't that hard to finish dunks and lobs and score in transition. Let's be real Howard never had a great post game.

I am not sold that he was that good. We put so much value in winning playoff ganes, showing up when it matters. Well...a null set doesnt lend me to believe I should assume good things for him.

Do the spurs win in 05 with tmac ibstead if manu? I am not sure. Lakers in 03? I am not sure. And that is what it is.

[dhsilv2]

Life isn't always fair. T-mac maybe did have a better peak than Howard, there's a good case for it. I however tend to think his 2011 was better than Tmac's 03. I value defensive bigs who can still score rather highly, until really the last few years (the trend has been going since 01, but the last 2-4 years have really accelerated it) I'd take a great big over a great small pretty easily. Anyway to the point I can't blame Tmac for losing in the playoffs, but I can't give him any credit for that either. Howard made it to an NBA finals. It sucks that T-mac never had the help he needed, but I don't like just assuming he would have done better with more help. I do think he'll get traction around 50-55 for me, but we still have MVPs on the board and guys who won titles as the best or second best guy.

I think I'm going to have to think hard about Tmac vs Westbrook. Westbrook is a guy I think has style issues, but his MVP and playoff success are there to rank him over Tmac. I do however think especially defensively that Tmac was the better player, just in the wrong era. That'll be one for me to think more on as we get close to those two.

You put T-Mac on the Spurs for ginobili or on the lakers for kobe or the pistons for chauncey or the or the celtics for pierce or the lakers for pau or the heat for wade or the mavs for terry or the warriors for klay or cavs for kyrie what happens? They win the championship and probably dominate more than before. I'm thinking about this as in a vacuum and is T-Mac better than all the names I've seen thus far in a vacuum, in my opinion yes. Yeah Howard made it to the finals, which he wouldn't have if KG stayed healthy and then we'd be talking about his 2nd round exit, but he had a roster perfectly molded to fit his skillset in a weak conference. You can't honestly believe T-Mac couldn't have done the same with a supporting cast of equal talent.
PS Howards offense is pretty clearly overrated it isn't that hard to finish dunks and lobs and score in transition. Let's be real Howard never had a great post game.

Harden really showed last season he is capable of carrying a team. There was no other all-star on that team, and they won more games than LBJ/Irving/KLove.

Dominique Wilkins was on a top4 team in 1988, and was elite against the Celtics.

Hard to vote against either of those 2 in favor TMac/Dwight. If we are talking elite peaks, why not talk about Walton who actually won?

Walton is an interesting one, but his longevity gives me to much pause at this point.

[trex_8063]

For those picking Howard and people who are longevity guys T-Mac had an 8 year prime and 15 years total it's not great but it's solid. Howard voters why pick Howard when he has same longevity and lower peak with horrid intangibles?

Where longevity is concerned, I've more than once in this project stated it as "longevity/durability/consistency" (as they're all kinda related); I've also used the term "meaningful longevity". As such, when I was advocating for Pierce, you'll note I made a point of stating he has 17 seasons as an above average player......I didn't make mention of his 19 seasons played (except, iirc, to once note that his final two seasons were utterly meaningless in the grand scheme of things). Similarly for Howard (in post #2 itt), I noted how he's been an above average player all 13 of his seasons; more on that below.

wrt TMac, I disagree about him having eight prime years. I would say seven ('01-'07); imo there's too much decline in '08 to count that: his ppg fell by 3 pts from the previous year while his shooting efficiency hit the lowest it had ever been at that point in his career. Here are McGrady's [avg of '01-'07/single-season lowest in '01-'07] for the rate metrics: PER 25.0/21.9, WS/48 .183/.112, BPM +6.5/+4.8. For comparison, here are his rate metrics for '08: PER 18.4, .115 WS/48, +2.4 BPM.

As you can see, that's a heck of a decline. And I doubt you were counting '00 as part of his prime: though his rate metrics are a little better than they were in '08, they're still significantly below his '01-'07 standard and he wasn't playing star-level minutes that season (31.2 mpg); his raw averages that year were 15.4/6.3/3.3.......that's not what we think of when we think of prime TMac.

At any rate, if we are going to be liberal enough in our definition to include '08 as part of his prime, then it would only be fair to say that Dwight had a NINE-year prime ('06-'14) accounting for 686 rs games (vs 8 years and 557 rs games for TMac).


But again, I would suggest TMac's prime was seven years (491 rs games), and Howard's was probably six years ('07-'12, 457 rs games); note the very similar number of games for Howard, despite one less season, because McGrady so frequently would miss relevant time. And Howard had more other seasons than McGrady that were relatively close to "prime-level".

For their entire careers, it's worth noting that McGrady's tendency toward injury was somewhat consistent: despite playing two more seasons than Howard, he's got 938 rs games vs 954 for Howard.

And then there's that consideration of "meaningful" longevity. As I'd noted, Howard has been an above average player his entire career (13 years). His worst statistical season is likely his rookie year, in which he was a 17.2 PER, .131 WS/48, +1.0 BPM player in 32.6 mpg==>still clearly above average.
McGrady, otoh, was a clearly below average player in EACH of his final THREE seasons, and basically average (at best) in his rookie year, too. So he actually only has 11 seasons as a clearly above average player.


In summary, while it's not a huge gap, I actually consider Dwight Howard to have the edge in the spectrum of longevity/durability/consistency.

I agree McGrady peaked higher; however, his '03 season is such an outlier for him that I actually think Howard has at least two (and possibly three) seasons better than McGrady's 2nd-best year.

[SactoKingsFan]

Dwight gets my run-off vote. I'm just more impressed with what he accomplished against tougher competition and don't give players like Cousy extra credit for pioneer status. Although Howard didn't have a lengthy prime, career longevity is solid and his peak is arguably higher than any of the remaining guys with decent longevity.

Run-off vote: Dwight Howard

Sent from my ONEPLUS 3T using Tapatalk

[Winsome Gerbil]

Runoff: Cousy here. Long since time given his groundbreaking role for the iconic Celtics dynasty. He was THE first point guard in may ways. The iconic one. Long ago when I took up for his candidacy for a while I made a post where I pointed out that at the time of his retirement he had notched 50% more assists than any other player in league history. Kareem scored 40,000pts. Imagine the status of the guy who retired having scored 60,000?

But I don't think Howard is a bad candidate for a spot somewhere in here. Over in my "best of the rest" center thread I took some time to list out some stats and achievements on what is now a list of 24 more guys, and you can see the overall strength of Howard's case. I actually think several of the remaining centers were better players than Dwight, including Mourning. But they did not sustain for as long as he has, and he's going to continue to rack up more numbers before he's done. I think the question of course is just how important these numbers are going to be from now on out, but this board as a whole has a lot higher opinion of lingering around than I do, so I'm not sure if that distinction should be as important to others as it is to me.

Wes Unseld -- -- -- -- (1968-81) 10624pts 13769reb 16.0PER 5x All Star, 1x All-NBA (1/0), 1x MVP
Bill Walton -- -- -- -- -(1974-87) 6215pts 4923reb 20.0PER 2x All Star, 2x All-NBA (1/1), 2x All Defense (2/0), 1x MVP
Dave Cowens - -- -- --(1970-83) 13516pts 10444reb 17.0PER 8x All Star, 3x All-NBA (0/3), 3x All Defense (1/2), 1x MVP
Bob Lanier -- -- -- -- -(1970-84) 19248pts 9698reb 21.7PER 8x All Star
Dwight Howard - -- --(2004-17) 16652pts 12089reb 21.7PER 8x All Star, 8x All-NBA (5/1/2), 5x All Defense (4/1), 3x DPOY
Alonzo Mourning -- -- (1992-08) 14311pts 7137reb 21.2PER 7x All Star, 2x All-NBA (1/1/0), 2x All Defense (2/0), 2x DPOY
Dikembe Mutombo -- (1991-09) 11729pts 12359reb 17.2PER 8x All Star, 3x All-NBA (0/1/2), 6x All Defense (3/3), 4x DPOY
Bob McAdoo -- -- -- --(1972-86) 18787pts 8048reb 20.7PER 5x All Star, 2x All-NBA (1/1), 1x MVP
Walt Bellamy -- -- -- -(1961-74) 20941pts 14241reb 19.8PER 4x All Star
Nate Thurmond -- -- -(1963-77) 14437pts 14464reb 16.5PER 7x All Star, 5x All Defense (2/3)
Willis Reed -- -- -- -- -(1964-74) 12183pts 8414reb 18.6PER 7x All Star, 5x All-NBA (1/4), 1x All Defense (1/0), 1x MVP
Arvydas Sabonis -- -- -(1995-03) 5629pts 3436reb 21.2PER International
Yao Ming -- -- -- -- -- -(2002-11) 9247pts 4494reb 23.0PER 8x All Star, 5x All-NBA (0/2/3)
Robert Parish -- -- -- -(1976-97) 23334pts 14715reb 19.2PER 9x All Star, 2x All-NBA (0/1/1)
Ralph Sampson -- -- --(1984-92) 7039pts 4011reb 16.0PER 4x All Star, 1x All-NBA (0/1)
Brad Daugherty -- -- -(1986-94) 10389pts 5227reb 18.9PER 5x All Star, 1x All-NBA (0/0/1)
Jack Sikma -- -- -- -- -(1977-91) 17287pts 10816reb 17.3PER 7x All Star, 1x All Defense (0/1)
Ben Wallace -- -- -- -- (1996-12) 6254pts 10482reb 15.5PER 4x All Star, 5x All-NBA (0/3/2), 6x All Defense (5/1), 4x DPOY
Dan Issel -- -- -- -- -- -(1970-85) 27482pts 11133reb 21.4PER 1x All Star, 6x ABA All-Star, 5x All-ABA (1/4)
DeMarcus Cousins -- --(2010-17) 10308pts 5267reb 22.4PER 3x All Star, 2x All-NBA (0/2/0)

adds:
Zelmo Beaty -- (1963-75) 15207pts 9665reb 18.7PER 2x All Star, 3x ABA All-Star, 2x All-ABA (0/2)
Mel Daniels -- (1967-76) 11778pts 9528reb 20.1PER 7xABA All Star, 5x All-ABA (4/1), 2x ABA MVP
Neil Johnston -- (1951-59) 10023pts 5856reb 24.7PER 6x All Star, 5x All NBA (4/1)
Marc Gasol -- (2008-17) 9592pts 4895reb 18.8PER 3x All Star, 2x All NBA (1/1/0), 1x All Defense (0/1), 1x DPOY


I think the All-NBA's are a bit inflated by being the only in prime center worthy during his era, but combined productivity and accolades have him up as high as anybody on that list.

[pandrade83]

Runoff: Cousy here. Long since time given his groundbreaking role for the iconic Celtics dynasty. He was THE first point guard in may ways. The iconic one. Long ago when I took up for his candidacy for a while I made a post where I pointed out that at the time of his retirement he had notched 50% more assists than any other player in league history. Kareem scored 40,000pts. Imagine the status of the guy who retired having scored 60,000?

But I don't think Howard is a bad candidate for a spot somewhere in here. Over in my "best of the rest" center thread I took some time to list out some stats and achievements on what is now a list of 24 more guys, and you can see the overall strength of Howard's case. I actually think several of the remaining centers were better players than Dwight, including Mourning. But they did not sustain for as long as he has, and he's going to continue to rack up more numbers before he's done. I think the question of course is just how important these numbers are going to be from now on out, but this board as a whole has a lot higher opinion of lingering around than I do, so I'm not sure if that distinction should be as important to others as it is to me.

Wes Unseld -- -- -- -- (1968-81) 10624pts 13769reb 16.0PER 5x All Star, 1x All-NBA (1/0), 1x MVP
Bill Walton -- -- -- -- -(1974-87) 6215pts 4923reb 20.0PER 2x All Star, 2x All-NBA (1/1), 2x All Defense (2/0), 1x MVP
Dave Cowens - -- -- --(1970-83) 13516pts 10444reb 17.0PER 8x All Star, 3x All-NBA (0/3), 3x All Defense (1/2), 1x MVP
Bob Lanier -- -- -- -- -(1970-84) 19248pts 9698reb 21.7PER 8x All Star
Dwight Howard - -- --(2004-17) 16652pts 12089reb 21.7PER 8x All Star, 8x All-NBA (5/1/2), 5x All Defense (4/1), 3x DPOY
Alonzo Mourning -- -- (1992-08) 14311pts 7137reb 21.2PER 7x All Star, 2x All-NBA (1/1/0), 2x All Defense (2/0), 2x DPOY
Dikembe Mutombo -- (1991-09) 11729pts 12359reb 17.2PER 8x All Star, 3x All-NBA (0/1/2), 6x All Defense (3/3), 4x DPOY
Bob McAdoo -- -- -- --(1972-86) 18787pts 8048reb 20.7PER 5x All Star, 2x All-NBA (1/1), 1x MVP
Walt Bellamy -- -- -- -(1961-74) 20941pts 14241reb 19.8PER 4x All Star
Nate Thurmond -- -- -(1963-77) 14437pts 14464reb 16.5PER 7x All Star, 5x All Defense (2/3)
Willis Reed -- -- -- -- -(1964-74) 12183pts 8414reb 18.6PER 7x All Star, 5x All-NBA (1/4), 1x All Defense (1/0), 1x MVP
Arvydas Sabonis -- -- -(1995-03) 5629pts 3436reb 21.2PER International
Yao Ming -- -- -- -- -- -(2002-11) 9247pts 4494reb 23.0PER 8x All Star, 5x All-NBA (0/2/3)
Robert Parish -- -- -- -(1976-97) 23334pts 14715reb 19.2PER 9x All Star, 2x All-NBA (0/1/1)
Ralph Sampson -- -- --(1984-92) 7039pts 4011reb 16.0PER 4x All Star, 1x All-NBA (0/1)
Brad Daugherty -- -- -(1986-94) 10389pts 5227reb 18.9PER 5x All Star, 1x All-NBA (0/0/1)
Jack Sikma -- -- -- -- -(1977-91) 17287pts 10816reb 17.3PER 7x All Star, 1x All Defense (0/1)
Ben Wallace -- -- -- -- (1996-12) 6254pts 10482reb 15.5PER 4x All Star, 5x All-NBA (0/3/2), 6x All Defense (5/1), 4x DPOY
Dan Issel -- -- -- -- -- -(1970-85) 27482pts 11133reb 21.4PER 1x All Star, 6x ABA All-Star, 5x All-ABA (1/4)
DeMarcus Cousins -- --(2010-17) 10308pts 5267reb 22.4PER 3x All Star, 2x All-NBA (0/2/0)

adds:
Zelmo Beaty -- (1963-75) 15207pts 9665reb 18.7PER 2x All Star, 3x ABA All-Star, 2x All-ABA (0/2)
Mel Daniels -- (1967-76) 11778pts 9528reb 20.1PER 7xABA All Star, 5x All-ABA (4/1), 2x ABA MVP
Neil Johnston -- (1951-59) 10023pts 5856reb 24.7PER 6x All Star, 5x All NBA (4/1)
Marc Gasol -- (2008-17) 9592pts 4895reb 18.8PER 3x All Star, 2x All NBA (1/1/0), 1x All Defense (0/1), 1x DPOY


I think the All-NBA's are a bit inflated by being the only in prime center worthy during his era, but combined productivity and accolades have him up as high as anybody on that list.

This works against Cousy too - probably moreso than anyone. Cousy never had to deal with a single guy in his prime at guard who will make this list. And when Robertson & West came along they represented an incredible upgrade over Cousy.

[THKNKG]

There are quite a few guys I could have been persuaded to choose over Dwight, but Cousy is not one of them. I am really not sold on him, at all really. I feel he gets an unwarranted buff to his resume by virtue of being a pioneer.

[Winsome Gerbil]

There are quite a few guys I could have been persuaded to choose over Dwight, but Cousy is not one of them. I am really not sold on him, at all really. I feel he gets an unwarranted buff to his resume by virtue of being a pioneer.

I think being a pioneer is a great buff to a resume. Just a few picks ago it was being used to help justify Miller. At some level "greatrness" connote more than just "best".

[THKNKG]

There are quite a few guys I could have been persuaded to choose over Dwight, but Cousy is not one of them. I am really not sold on him, at all really. I feel he gets an unwarranted buff to his resume by virtue of being a pioneer.

I think being a pioneer is a great buff to a resume. Just a few picks ago it was being used to help justify Miller. At some level "greatrness" connote more than just "best".

Miller and Cousy are two different sorts of pioneers. Cousy existed in a league where at the start, players were SIGNIFICANTLY worse than they would become (doc has talked about the growth curve of the league matching this - I'll have to try to find the post). Reggie existed in an already established, high skill league, and managed to use a skill set that was more impactful and valuable than the majority of skill sets that existed in the 90's. It's apples to oranges.


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