Political Roundtable Part XV

[DCZards]

“I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian — for me — for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God’s in the mix.”
Sen. Obama
April 17, 2008,

Did Obama change his personal belief about marriage as stated above? I don't think so. In fact, Obama makes it clear that this is a personal belief when he says "for me as a Christian."

To his credit, what Obama didn't do was use his religious beliefs as a justification for opposing same-sex marriages, which the courts have upheld, btw.

I applaud Obama for not imposing his personal beliefs on those who might believe differently than he does.

[I_Like_Dirt]

In regards to the latter, I think you'd be surprised how many politicians (including some on the Right) lie about that.

I'm sure they lie about it, and lie a lot, but the real catch here is that the answers aren't mutually exclusive. You can believe something and not believe that you should force your beliefs onto someone else.

A lot of religious issues get pushed this direction, basically eliminating any depth from the issue and turning it into a yes/no question where you either have to be set for trying to force everyone to act the same way or you're against it, and reality is very different, but people love to judge and find an enemy so they can feel superior. I mean, just look at the pro-choice/pro-life thing. They aren't actually mutually exclusive options. You can be against the concept of abortions in general but still for having the option out and of the mind that others also have the right to make up their own minds. That kind of logic would support the idea of working towards improving the conditions that lead people to choose to have abortions rather than just outright banning it and cause a lot of divisive hatred, allowing both sides to be more focused on that issue and more likely to allow other issues to be manipulated so long as they get their way on that particular issue, which is a bit problem.

[Ruzious]

“I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian — for me — for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God’s in the mix.”
Sen. Obama
April 17, 2008,

Did Obama change his personal belief about marriage as stated above? I don't think so. In fact, Obama makes it clear that this is a personal belief when he says "for me as a Christian."

To his credit, what Obama didn't do was use his religious beliefs as a justification for opposing same-sex marriages, which the courts have upheld, btw.

I applaud Obama for not imposing his personal beliefs on those who might believe differently than he does.

And how do people not get this? Just because I have personal religious beliefs doesn't mean I think it makes sense to impose those beliefs on others... And personally, I don't "get" the attraction of males to other males, but it would be the height of assholeishness (I'll lobby Webster or just call it evil) to try to impose my view there on others who have different preferences.

[popper]

“I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian — for me — for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God’s in the mix.”
Sen. Obama
April 17, 2008,

Did Obama change his personal belief about marriage as stated above? I don't think so. In fact, Obama makes it clear that this is a personal belief when he says "for me as a Christian."

To his credit, what Obama didn't do was use his religious beliefs as a justification for opposing same-sex marriages, which the courts have upheld, btw.

I applaud Obama for not imposing his personal beliefs on those who might believe differently than he does.

Yes, he changed his position several times depending on what political advantage he could obtain.


Full circle

Obama was in favor of same-sex marriage before he was against it — and before he was for it again.

In 1996, as he ran for Illinois state Senate, Chicago’s Outlines gay newspaper asked candidates to fill out a questionnaire. Tracy Baim, the co-founder and publisher of Outlines, dug up a copy of the questionnaire in 2009, cataloging the president-elect’s shift.

He had written on the 1996 questionnaire, "I favor legalizing same-sex marriages, and would fight efforts to prohibit such marriages."

Just two years later, on another Outlines questionnaire, Obama wasn’t so sure. Did he favor legalizing same-sex marriage? "Undecided." Would he support a bill to repeal Illinois legislation prohibiting same-sex marriage? "Undecided." Would he co-sponsor it? "Undecided."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/may/11/barack-obama/president-barack-obamas-shift-gay-marriage/

[gtn130]

“I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian — for me — for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God’s in the mix.”
Sen. Obama
April 17, 2008,

Did Obama change his personal belief about marriage as stated above? I don't think so. In fact, Obama makes it clear that this is a personal belief when he says "for me as a Christian."

To his credit, what Obama didn't do was use his religious beliefs as a justification for opposing same-sex marriages, which the courts have upheld, btw.

I applaud Obama for not imposing his personal beliefs on those who might believe differently than he does.

Yes, he changed his position several times depending on what political advantage he could obtain.


Full circle

Obama was in favor of same-sex marriage before he was against it — and before he was for it again.

In 1996, as he ran for Illinois state Senate, Chicago’s Outlines gay newspaper asked candidates to fill out a questionnaire. Tracy Baim, the co-founder and publisher of Outlines, dug up a copy of the questionnaire in 2009, cataloging the president-elect’s shift.

He had written on the 1996 questionnaire, "I favor legalizing same-sex marriages, and would fight efforts to prohibit such marriages."

Just two years later, on another Outlines questionnaire, Obama wasn’t so sure. Did he favor legalizing same-sex marriage? "Undecided." Would he support a bill to repeal Illinois legislation prohibiting same-sex marriage? "Undecided." Would he co-sponsor it? "Undecided."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/may/11/barack-obama/president-barack-obamas-shift-gay-marriage/

Yes, along with every single democrat who has been around a while, Obama's social views have evolved along with the times.

You know what's worse than changing your position on same-sex marriage, abortion or LGBT rights? NOT changing your position on those issues.

[popper]

Did Obama change his personal belief about marriage as stated above? I don't think so. In fact, Obama makes it clear that this is a personal belief when he says "for me as a Christian."

To his credit, what Obama didn't do was use his religious beliefs as a justification for opposing same-sex marriages, which the courts have upheld, btw.

I applaud Obama for not imposing his personal beliefs on those who might believe differently than he does.

Yes, he changed his position several times depending on what political advantage he could obtain.


Full circle

Obama was in favor of same-sex marriage before he was against it — and before he was for it again.

In 1996, as he ran for Illinois state Senate, Chicago’s Outlines gay newspaper asked candidates to fill out a questionnaire. Tracy Baim, the co-founder and publisher of Outlines, dug up a copy of the questionnaire in 2009, cataloging the president-elect’s shift.

He had written on the 1996 questionnaire, "I favor legalizing same-sex marriages, and would fight efforts to prohibit such marriages."

Just two years later, on another Outlines questionnaire, Obama wasn’t so sure. Did he favor legalizing same-sex marriage? "Undecided." Would he support a bill to repeal Illinois legislation prohibiting same-sex marriage? "Undecided." Would he co-sponsor it? "Undecided."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/may/11/barack-obama/president-barack-obamas-shift-gay-marriage/

Yes, along with every single democrat who has been around a while, Obama's social views have evolved along with the times.

You know what's worse than changing your position on same-sex marriage, abortion or LGBT rights? NOT changing your position on those issues.

I'm for gay marriage gtn. But that fact and Obama's beliefs don't address the content of my original post. I simply pointed out to Jim that changing one's views 180 degrees is not something unique to the poster he was addressing. Our elected leadership do it quite often. In addition to the gay marriage quote, I posted two quotes from Obama regarding the national debt and how in his mind it was immoral and unpatriotic to increase it. I assume you realize that was just a ploy to demonize Bush and posture to make himself look like he was fiscally responsible.

[gtn130]

Yes, he changed his position several times depending on what political advantage he could obtain.


Full circle

Obama was in favor of same-sex marriage before he was against it — and before he was for it again.

In 1996, as he ran for Illinois state Senate, Chicago’s Outlines gay newspaper asked candidates to fill out a questionnaire. Tracy Baim, the co-founder and publisher of Outlines, dug up a copy of the questionnaire in 2009, cataloging the president-elect’s shift.

He had written on the 1996 questionnaire, "I favor legalizing same-sex marriages, and would fight efforts to prohibit such marriages."

Just two years later, on another Outlines questionnaire, Obama wasn’t so sure. Did he favor legalizing same-sex marriage? "Undecided." Would he support a bill to repeal Illinois legislation prohibiting same-sex marriage? "Undecided." Would he co-sponsor it? "Undecided."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/may/11/barack-obama/president-barack-obamas-shift-gay-marriage/

Yes, along with every single democrat who has been around a while, Obama's social views have evolved along with the times.

You know what's worse than changing your position on same-sex marriage, abortion or LGBT rights? NOT changing your position on those issues.

I'm for gay marriage gtn. But that fact and Obama's beliefs don't address the content of my original post. I simply pointed out to Jim that changing one's views 180 degrees is not something unique to the poster he was addressing. Our elected leadership do it quite often. In addition to the gay marriage quote, I posted two quotes from Obama regarding the national debt and how in his mind it was immoral and unpatriotic to increase it. I assume you realize that was just a ploy to demonize Bush and posture to make himself look like he was fiscally responsible.

Popper,

Stop playing dumb. There is a massive difference between running up the deficit to finance wars and tax cuts and running up the deficit to rehabilitate the economy because of said wars and tax cuts.

Get a clue.

[popper]

Yes, along with every single democrat who has been around a while, Obama's social views have evolved along with the times.

You know what's worse than changing your position on same-sex marriage, abortion or LGBT rights? NOT changing your position on those issues.

I'm for gay marriage gtn. But that fact and Obama's beliefs don't address the content of my original post. I simply pointed out to Jim that changing one's views 180 degrees is not something unique to the poster he was addressing. Our elected leadership do it quite often. In addition to the gay marriage quote, I posted two quotes from Obama regarding the national debt and how in his mind it was immoral and unpatriotic to increase it. I assume you realize that was just a ploy to demonize Bush and posture to make himself look like he was fiscally responsible.

Popper,

Stop playing dumb. There is a massive difference between running up the deficit to finance wars and tax cuts and running up the deficit to rehabilitate the economy because of said wars and tax cuts.

Get a clue.

Obama and congress raised taxes on the rich several times during the past eight years. Obama said Afghanistan was the right war. We both agree that Iraq was a terrible decision and cost this country greatly in terms of blood and money. We're currently running an annual deficit of approx 700 billion. How would you balance the budget going forward?

[gtn130]

I'm for gay marriage gtn. But that fact and Obama's beliefs don't address the content of my original post. I simply pointed out to Jim that changing one's views 180 degrees is not something unique to the poster he was addressing. Our elected leadership do it quite often. In addition to the gay marriage quote, I posted two quotes from Obama regarding the national debt and how in his mind it was immoral and unpatriotic to increase it. I assume you realize that was just a ploy to demonize Bush and posture to make himself look like he was fiscally responsible.

Popper,

Stop playing dumb. There is a massive difference between running up the deficit to finance wars and tax cuts and running up the deficit to rehabilitate the economy because of said wars and tax cuts.

Get a clue.

Obama and congress raised taxes on the rich several times during the past eight years. Obama said Afghanistan was the right war. We both agree that Iraq was a terrible decision and cost this country greatly in terms of blood and money. We're currently running an annual deficit of approx 700 billion. How would you balance the budget going forward?

Further tax the rich and cut military spending.

[popper]

Popper,

Stop playing dumb. There is a massive difference between running up the deficit to finance wars and tax cuts and running up the deficit to rehabilitate the economy because of said wars and tax cuts.

Get a clue.

Obama and congress raised taxes on the rich several times during the past eight years. Obama said Afghanistan was the right war. We both agree that Iraq was a terrible decision and cost this country greatly in terms of blood and money. We're currently running an annual deficit of approx 700 billion. How would you balance the budget going forward?

Further tax the rich and cut military spending.

Ok. I would support Bernie Sanders idea of an annual wealth tax of 1% for assets exceeding 21 million dollars in return for a balance budget amendment. I believe he said it would raise 1.3 trillion over ten years. Would you agree to that?

https://www.buzzfeed.com/rubycramer/with-popular-single-payer-plan-bernie-sanders-enters-new?utm_term=.fp2qE7Xebl#.ldm5gjNXz7

[gtn130]

Obama and congress raised taxes on the rich several times during the past eight years. Obama said Afghanistan was the right war. We both agree that Iraq was a terrible decision and cost this country greatly in terms of blood and money. We're currently running an annual deficit of approx 700 billion. How would you balance the budget going forward?

Further tax the rich and cut military spending.

Ok. I would support Bernie Sanders idea of an annual wealth tax of 1% for assets exceeding 21 million dollars in return for a balance budget amendment. I believe he said it would raise 1.3 trillion over ten years. Would you agree to that?

https://www.buzzfeed.com/rubycramer/with-popular-single-payer-plan-bernie-sanders-enters-new?utm_term=.fp2qE7Xebl#.ldm5gjNXz7

Uhhh, maybe? I'm not here to speculate over how best to minimize the deficit. I'm here to point out that your intimation that Obama increasing the deficit as some sort of sinister hypocrisy is wrong and silly.

And more importantly - the fiscal conservatives who decry all the LEFTIST SPENDING wind up massively increasing the deficit every time they're in power while simultaneously maintaining absolute silence on the issue of deficit spending. It's totally cynical and disingenuous on the part of conservatives, but the neocon fox news watchers continue to lap it up, so here we are.

[popper]

Further tax the rich and cut military spending.

Ok. I would support Bernie Sanders idea of an annual wealth tax of 1% for assets exceeding 21 million dollars in return for a balance budget amendment. I believe he said it would raise 1.3 trillion over ten years. Would you agree to that?

https://www.buzzfeed.com/rubycramer/with-popular-single-payer-plan-bernie-sanders-enters-new?utm_term=.fp2qE7Xebl#.ldm5gjNXz7

Uhhh, maybe? I'm not here to speculate over how best to minimize the deficit. I'm here to point out that your intimation that Obama increasing the deficit as some sort of sinister hypocrisy is wrong and silly.

And more importantly - the fiscal conservatives who decry all the LEFTIST SPENDING wind up massively increasing the deficit every time they're in power while simultaneously maintaining absolute silence on the issue of deficit spending. It's totally cynical and disingenuous on the part of conservatives, but the neocon fox news watchers continue to lap it up, so here we are.

Except that's not what I said or posted. My post pointed out that he went from "increasing the debt limit is immoral and unpatriotic " to supporting debt limit increases in perpetuity once he was elected. I blame R's just as much as I do D's for debt and deficits and my thoughts on the matter have nothing to do with Fox News or neocons.

[Ruzious]

I'm for gay marriage gtn. But that fact and Obama's beliefs don't address the content of my original post. I simply pointed out to Jim that changing one's views 180 degrees is not something unique to the poster he was addressing. Our elected leadership do it quite often. In addition to the gay marriage quote, I posted two quotes from Obama regarding the national debt and how in his mind it was immoral and unpatriotic to increase it. I assume you realize that was just a ploy to demonize Bush and posture to make himself look like he was fiscally responsible.

Popper,

Stop playing dumb. There is a massive difference between running up the deficit to finance wars and tax cuts and running up the deficit to rehabilitate the economy because of said wars and tax cuts.

Get a clue.

Obama and congress raised taxes on the rich several times during the past eight years. Obama said Afghanistan was the right war. We both agree that Iraq was a terrible decision and cost this country greatly in terms of blood and money. We're currently running an annual deficit of approx 700 billion. How would you balance the budget going forward?

There's still a lot of inefficiencies favoring the wealthy in the income tax system. Capital gains rates are still much lower than ordinary income, and look at the lifetime gift and estate tax exclusion. From 1997 to the present, it's gone from $600,000 to $5,490,000. And step-ups in cost basis are still aloud to reduce capital gains for the people inheriting property. These are all things that can reasonably be changed to make the tax code more equitable and increase taxes to the wealthy. And the poorer Trump supporters are for lining the pockets of billionaires... what a country, God love em.

[popper]

Popper,

Stop playing dumb. There is a massive difference between running up the deficit to finance wars and tax cuts and running up the deficit to rehabilitate the economy because of said wars and tax cuts.

Get a clue.

Obama and congress raised taxes on the rich several times during the past eight years. Obama said Afghanistan was the right war. We both agree that Iraq was a terrible decision and cost this country greatly in terms of blood and money. We're currently running an annual deficit of approx 700 billion. How would you balance the budget going forward?

There's still a lot of inefficiencies favoring the wealthy in the income tax system. Capital gains rates are still much lower than ordinary income, and look at the lifetime gift and estate tax exclusion. From 1997 to the present, it's gone from $600,000 to $5,490,000. And step-ups in cost basis are still aloud to reduce capital gains for the people inheriting property. These are all things that can reasonably be changed to make the tax code more equitable and increase taxes to the wealthy. And the poorer Trump supporters are for lining the pockets of billionaires... what a country, God love em.

I generally agree with you Ruz. I think the wealthy should pay more (I think the upper middle class will also eventually have to pay more as well.) Not sure what the best mechanism is though. Also I would like to see a balanced budget amendment done at the same time. Raise taxes sufficiently to accommodate spending while establishing constitutional protections against further debt.

Edit - I think Bernie Sanders wealth tax idea of 1% above 21 million in assets has merit

[dckingsfan]

Ruz/popper - the Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997 was bipartisan. Meaning that both the Ds and Rs voted to lower capital gains. There were many reasons for the tax breaks - but if there was one driving force behind the tax breaks, I would say it was the Ds from NY. And the Rs have passed tax cuts in the past without reducing spending - driving up our deficit spending. And don't forget tax breaks to deduct state and local income taxes - the Ds push that one as well.

And remember, we are now have 40% of our GDP in federal, state and local taxes. Federal taxes have stayed pretty solid at ~19% of GDP regardless of tax increases. I'll refer you to Zonk on why that is - we might be able to get to 20% but it will most likely it will just decrease our total tax receipts.

The issue is not that we have a taxing problem - we don't, we have a taxing fairness problem and both parties are equally complicit. And that is the complicating factor.

What we most certainly have is a spending problem. The last 5 years we have been spending more that 22% of GDP. That just isn't sustainable.

So, on balance we have more of a spending than taxing issue.

I find Bernie to be a more cleaver liar than Trump - but a liar none the less. He advocates increasing spending on SS, increase spending on Healthcare, increase spending on higher education and he has no way to pay for it. And there is no question that he knows that - he has been a senator for far too long for that to be lost on him - it is a vehicle to get elected.

[stilldropin20]

Obama and congress raised taxes on the rich several times during the past eight years. Obama said Afghanistan was the right war. We both agree that Iraq was a terrible decision and cost this country greatly in terms of blood and money. We're currently running an annual deficit of approx 700 billion. How would you balance the budget going forward?

Further tax the rich and cut military spending.

Ok. I would support Bernie Sanders idea of an annual wealth tax of 1% for assets exceeding 21 million dollars in return for a balance budget amendment. I believe he said it would raise 1.3 trillion over ten years. Would you agree to that?

https://www.buzzfeed.com/rubycramer/with-popular-single-payer-plan-bernie-sanders-enters-new?utm_term=.fp2qE7Xebl#.ldm5gjNXz7

I'm with popper my answer is yes

Sent from my SM-N920T using RealGM mobile app

[stilldropin20]

Yes, he changed his position several times depending on what political advantage he could obtain.


Full circle

Obama was in favor of same-sex marriage before he was against it — and before he was for it again.

In 1996, as he ran for Illinois state Senate, Chicago’s Outlines gay newspaper asked candidates to fill out a questionnaire. Tracy Baim, the co-founder and publisher of Outlines, dug up a copy of the questionnaire in 2009, cataloging the president-elect’s shift.

He had written on the 1996 questionnaire, "I favor legalizing same-sex marriages, and would fight efforts to prohibit such marriages."

Just two years later, on another Outlines questionnaire, Obama wasn’t so sure. Did he favor legalizing same-sex marriage? "Undecided." Would he support a bill to repeal Illinois legislation prohibiting same-sex marriage? "Undecided." Would he co-sponsor it? "Undecided."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/may/11/barack-obama/president-barack-obamas-shift-gay-marriage/

Yes, along with every single democrat who has been around a while, Obama's social views have evolved along with the times.

You know what's worse than changing your position on same-sex marriage, abortion or LGBT rights? NOT changing your position on those issues.

I'm for gay marriage gtn. But that fact and Obama's beliefs don't address the content of my original post. I simply pointed out to Jim that changing one's views 180 degrees is not something unique to the poster he was addressing. Our elected leadership do it quite often. In addition to the gay marriage quote, I posted two quotes from Obama regarding the national debt and how in his mind it was immoral and unpatriotic to increase it. I assume you realize that was just a ploy to demonize Bush and posture to make himself look like he was fiscally responsible.

Yes. Sanders had some good things that he campaigned on so does Trump

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[stilldropin20]

Popper,

Stop playing dumb. There is a massive difference between running up the deficit to finance wars and tax cuts and running up the deficit to rehabilitate the economy because of said wars and tax cuts.

Get a clue.

Obama and congress raised taxes on the rich several times during the past eight years. Obama said Afghanistan was the right war. We both agree that Iraq was a terrible decision and cost this country greatly in terms of blood and money. We're currently running an annual deficit of approx 700 billion. How would you balance the budget going forward?

Further tax the rich and cut military spending.

Weak military is a terrible idea we will never negotiate from a position of strength with a weak military.

Where do you think this country got its wealth from? Go check out historically when we've had the influxes of cash and of credit markets were wide open. Let me save you some time. after World War 1 and after World War 2. Go check out when we opened up Fort Knox and filled it with gold. Then go check and find out if the Gold's still there and when the last time that's been audited. Let me save you some time again. The Gold's gone.

News flash we're on the verge of World War 3 without careful negotiations from a position of strength we need the military to be strong. And we need to be firm. Or this whole things about to blow up. And if it does we're going to need a strong military for that too.

Sent from my SM-N920T using RealGM mobile app

[stilldropin20]

Further tax the rich and cut military spending.

Ok. I would support Bernie Sanders idea of an annual wealth tax of 1% for assets exceeding 21 million dollars in return for a balance budget amendment. I believe he said it would raise 1.3 trillion over ten years. Would you agree to that?

https://www.buzzfeed.com/rubycramer/with-popular-single-payer-plan-bernie-sanders-enters-new?utm_term=.fp2qE7Xebl#.ldm5gjNXz7

Uhhh, maybe? I'm not here to speculate over how best to minimize the deficit. I'm here to point out that your intimation that Obama increasing the deficit as some sort of sinister hypocrisy is wrong and silly.

And more importantly - the fiscal conservatives who decry all the LEFTIST SPENDING wind up massively increasing the deficit every time they're in power while simultaneously maintaining absolute silence on the issue of deficit spending. It's totally cynical and disingenuous on the part of conservatives, but the neocon fox news watchers continue to lap it up, so here we are.

My god grow up. You're here to rehash the past? We all know what happened in the past. We're 20 trillion in debt with issues all over the damn globe. Everyone sees that. What? You're here to sell us on your spun up version of History? The whole point of this discussion is to talk about the future.

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[payitforward]

lindsey graham, john mccain, and mike pence need to go away. In fact, most the entire far right republican "old guard" needs to go away.

They have been obstructing the trump train almost as much as the far left liberals. I haven't read the new ACA bill but i'm quite sure its just more hard-line, far right legislation.

that said this is what it will take to get Mccain to sign. so this might get done. I dont like much about the current ACA at all. but if it gets done this will l be a victory for the trump regime.

If trump caves on DACA (as he should) Aaand gets his wall funded (which he should as part of daca reform, this will be a resounding victory for both sides and all americans. Major victory.

This will lead right into tax reform. another major victory.

aaaaaaand if he removes the North Korean regime?? aaaand if he reworks the iranian deal to make the world safer??

trump does all this plus keeps the economy buzzing, and if he keeps us safe from a major terrorist attack, he will not only landslide win in 2020 but he is going to go down as one of the greatest presidents of the past 100 years. Top 5 easily. aaaaaand the far left just cant stand it. that a clown is pulling this off.

Not much point in responding to you, but still... first you say "if..." he does a bunch of stuff that he hasn't done & isn't likely to do, then you conclude that he "is pulling this off."

Why don't you start by listing 2 accomplishments of first almost 20% of his Presidency. Actually... start with 1. Something *he* has done, please -- not that the stock market has been good.