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John Paxson 670/1000 interviews

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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#121 » by Stratmaster » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:43 pm

League Circles wrote:One of the more bold moves we should have made, which I advocated for at the time, was to trade Noah in summer 2013. Value at all time high in a rather obvious way.


in 2013, or in 2014 after his DPOY? Wow, if Noah had been traded in 2014 after the season he had,and as popular as he was; there would have been riots in the streets. But you would have been correct to trade him then.

i will say though that until his last injury, Noah was playing a lot better than people gave him credit for. All of the advanced stats that many on here look to for player assessment looked favorable. Positive BPM and VORP. A PER over 15. Not the player he was by any stretch but not the liability he was being made out to be. Certainly not worth the contract he was given.
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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#122 » by League Circles » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:48 pm

Stratmaster wrote:I'm sorry. I can't agree that Barea would have made any difference, more or less a "poor man's" Barea. What in the world do you see in Barea that would have made a difference?

Ability to break down a defense drastically better than Kirk and Brooks, neither of whom can do it at all. Do you remember the 2011 NBA finals? I'm not saying it would have been the thing that put us over the edge, I'm saying the Bulls were making decisions based on an unreasonable likelihood of Rose being healthy often enough, and with a relative disregard for long term perimeter talent. Essentially, they went too "all in" during that time. Should have been taking a couple more flyers on younger, talented guys, despite it not being likely to yield any real difference at that time, because it might have yielded a difference later on when they clearly, and somewhat predictably, needed it.
The first 2 seasons Hinrich was back even Kirk was a better player than JJ.

I don't believe in better vs worse in the NBA once you get past the top 30 players or so. After that, better or worse is all about context. Furthermore, I've been specifically talking about their poor decision to re-sign him in 2014, not the decision to sign him as a UFA in 2012. That was much more reasonable, as Kirk was not only younger and better, but especially because Rose only had one injury then, and further yet because we had several more guards that projected to have a scoring and/or playmaking presence, in Nate, Marco, Teague (as a prospect), and RIP.
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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#123 » by AirP. » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:49 pm

Stratmaster wrote:They didn't get a reasonable offer a year earlier, and they valued the idea of building with Jimmy more a year earlier...before the 2nd season of drama. They tried to appease him with Wade, and Wade and Jimmy formed their clique and tried to run the team. EVERYTHING about the Bulls the last 2 seasons seemed to be about pleasing Jimmy Butler.

Huh... everything the last 2 seasons. Trading Taj and McDermott for crap and Marrow was about pleasing Butler? Firing Thibs and bringing in a coach that didn't match styles with Butler was for Butler? Didn't know that.
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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#124 » by RedBulls23 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:54 pm

AirP. wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:They didn't get a reasonable offer a year earlier, and they valued the idea of building with Jimmy more a year earlier...before the 2nd season of drama. They tried to appease him with Wade, and Wade and Jimmy formed their clique and tried to run the team. EVERYTHING about the Bulls the last 2 seasons seemed to be about pleasing Jimmy Butler.

Huh... everything the last 2 seasons. Trading Taj and McDermott for crap and Marrow was about pleasing Butler? Firing Thibs and bringing in a coach that didn't match styles with Butler was for Butler? Didn't know that.

Also, It's a flat out lie to say they went after Wade to appease Jimmy.

Jimmy only reached out to Wade after the fact it was clear that the FO was trying to sign him.

They wanted Wade since 2010 FA. That's why they went after him again when it was possible he could leave Miami.
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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#125 » by kingkirk » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:54 pm

Stratmaster wrote:EVERYTHING about the Bulls the last 2 seasons seemed to be about pleasing Jimmy Butler.


:lol:
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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#126 » by League Circles » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:55 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
League Circles wrote:One of the more bold moves we should have made, which I advocated for at the time, was to trade Noah in summer 2013. Value at all time high in a rather obvious way.


in 2013, or in 2014 after his DPOY? Wow, if Noah had been traded in 2014 after the season he had,and as popular as he was; there would have been riots in the streets. But you would have been correct to trade him then.

i will say though that until his last injury, Noah was playing a lot better than people gave him credit for. All of the advanced stats that many on here look to for player assessment looked favorable. Positive BPM and VORP. A PER over 15. Not the player he was by any stretch but not the liability he was being made out to be. Certainly not worth the contract he was given.

In 2013, when he was a year younger and with an additional year left on his deal, with the foresight to know that having him on the roster in summer 2014 would limit your options both due to his salary and due to him inevitably being part of recruiting guys like Melo and Gasol.
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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#127 » by League Circles » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:58 pm

RedBulls23 wrote:
AirP. wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:They didn't get a reasonable offer a year earlier, and they valued the idea of building with Jimmy more a year earlier...before the 2nd season of drama. They tried to appease him with Wade, and Wade and Jimmy formed their clique and tried to run the team. EVERYTHING about the Bulls the last 2 seasons seemed to be about pleasing Jimmy Butler.

Huh... everything the last 2 seasons. Trading Taj and McDermott for crap and Marrow was about pleasing Butler? Firing Thibs and bringing in a coach that didn't match styles with Butler was for Butler? Didn't know that.

Also, It's a flat out lie to say they went after Wade to appease Jimmy.

Jimmy only reached out to Wade after the fact it was clear that the FO was trying to sign him.

Truly honest question:

Were the Bulls trying to sign Wade, or did he self invite?

I never remember hearing a word or even rumor of Bulls trying to get him until a few days before he signed, and it seemed like he and his agent just called up the Bulls and said "remember that offer from 2010? We're ready now." I realize I must be wrong to some extent I don't know by missing something, but I've never felt like he was really a big sincere target for the Bulls. Had he been, IMO they'd have offered him more years.
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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#128 » by Stratmaster » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:59 pm

League Circles wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:I'm sorry. I can't agree that Barea would have made any difference, more or less a "poor man's" Barea. What in the world do you see in Barea that would have made a difference?

Ability to break down a defense drastically better than Kirk and Brooks, neither of whom can do it at all. Do you remember the 2011 NBA finals? I'm not saying it would have been the thing that put us over the edge, I'm saying the Bulls were making decisions based on an unreasonable likelihood of Rose being healthy often enough, and with a relative disregard for long term perimeter talent. Essentially, they went too "all in" during that time. Should have been taking a couple more flyers on younger, talented guys, despite it not being likely to yield any real difference at that time, because it might have yielded a difference later on when they clearly, and somewhat predictably, needed it.
The first 2 seasons Hinrich was back even Kirk was a better player than JJ.

I don't believe in better vs worse in the NBA once you get past the top 30 players or so. After that, better or worse is all about context. Furthermore, I've been specifically talking about their poor decision to re-sign him in 2014, not the decision to sign him as a UFA in 2012. That was much more reasonable, as Kirk was not only younger and better, but especially because Rose only had one injury then, and further yet because we had several more guards that projected to have a scoring and/or playmaking presence, in Nate, Marco, Teague (as a prospect), and RIP.


I'm not a fan of Barea, so we won't come to any mutual conclusions there. i agree with you on context, although some players are simply better than others regardless. I did misunderstand (actually, I just didn't read and think it through thoroughly) on Hinrich. I was more focused on "in my mind, until that last season Hinrich was way better than Barea".

I'm not sure who was available at that time for the dollars the Bulls spent on Hinrich...or Brooks. I can't imagine there was a difference maker available at PG for that price.
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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#129 » by Stratmaster » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:00 pm

Mark K wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:EVERYTHING about the Bulls the last 2 seasons seemed to be about pleasing Jimmy Butler.


:lol:

**** off


Oh oh. Someone got their feelings hurt.
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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#130 » by Stratmaster » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:01 pm

League Circles wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:
AirP. wrote:Huh... everything the last 2 seasons. Trading Taj and McDermott for crap and Marrow was about pleasing Butler? Firing Thibs and bringing in a coach that didn't match styles with Butler was for Butler? Didn't know that.

Also, It's a flat out lie to say they went after Wade to appease Jimmy.

Jimmy only reached out to Wade after the fact it was clear that the FO was trying to sign him.

Truly honest question:

Were the Bulls trying to sign Wade, or did he self invite?

I never remember hearing a word or even rumor of Bulls trying to get him until a few days before he signed, and it seemed like he and his agent just called up the Bulls and said "remember that offer from 2010? We're ready now." I realize I must be wrong to some extent I don't know by missing something, but I've never felt like he was really a big sincere target for the Bulls. Had he been, IMO they'd have offered him more years.


Agreed, and the idea that Jimmy and Wade never discussed it until after the Bulls made an offer seems outlandish to me.
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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#131 » by League Circles » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:03 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
I'm not sure who was available at that time for the dollars the Bulls spent on Hinrich...or Brooks. I can't imagine there was a difference maker available at PG for that price.

My point isn't that they should have got a better player. In fact, I'm basically advocating they should have got a worse player that had better fit for what we needed and/or some value as a prospect (somebody much younger with a little upside).

I'm a big believer in the value of continuity, but sometimes the Bulls have taken it a little too far IMO.
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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#132 » by kingkirk » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:03 pm

Stratmaster wrote:Oh oh. Someone got their feelings hurt.


You're either trolling, being ignorant or pedalling lies when you say something as provocative as the Bulls' actions over the last 2 years have been only to please Jimmy Butler.

What a load of **** crap.
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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#133 » by League Circles » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:05 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
Mark K wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:EVERYTHING about the Bulls the last 2 seasons seemed to be about pleasing Jimmy Butler.


:lol:

**** off


Oh oh. Someone got their feelings hurt.

Yeah I mean you're wrong that everything was about Jimmy the last two years, but you're just mistaken. Doesn't mean you have to **** off haha. Anyone who posts as much as we all do is going to be wrong at least once a week, including me, you, and maybe even others. :D
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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#134 » by RedBulls23 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:06 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
League Circles wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:Also, It's a flat out lie to say they went after Wade to appease Jimmy.

Jimmy only reached out to Wade after the fact it was clear that the FO was trying to sign him.

Truly honest question:

Were the Bulls trying to sign Wade, or did he self invite?

I never remember hearing a word or even rumor of Bulls trying to get him until a few days before he signed, and it seemed like he and his agent just called up the Bulls and said "remember that offer from 2010? We're ready now." I realize I must be wrong to some extent I don't know by missing something, but I've never felt like he was really a big sincere target for the Bulls. Had he been, IMO they'd have offered him more years.


Agreed, and the idea that Jimmy and Wade never discussed it until after the Bulls made an offer seems outlandish to me.

There is only proof of rumors.coming out that Jimmy was in talks with Wade after the fact the FO had already reached out to him and his agent.
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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#135 » by jnrjr79 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:09 pm

Mark K wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:Because EVERYTHING is the front office's fault.

A hall-of-fame player claimed he was coming here to be a professional and mentor Butler and the young players, and then instead was a pompous prima donna who seemed to purposely cause drama and rifts. That's not Wade's fault. It's the Bulls front offices fault. The fact that he put his arm around Butler and told him how the coach, the rest of the team and the front office all sucked is the front office's fault. Not Wade's fault. Wade's unwillingness to accept and work with Rondo was the front office's fault, not Wade's fault.

I mean, for 24 mil a season, what did the Bulls expect? That the person they were paying it to would actually try to perform and act in a way that HELPED the franchise? What were they thinking and how dare they call any player out for accepting their millions and millions of dollars and then trashing the team publicly?

It seems many forget that these players are getting PAID by someone. There aren't any organizations in the world that will pay an employee huge bucks and put up with the kind of comments some of these NBA players make.


No one is suggesting Wade is blameless. Do you think Bulls fans actually like defending Wade or enjoy bypassing the blame from him to someone else?

What is happening here is people are rightfully identifying the root cause for his drama: management.

Wade is a douche and deserves his share of the blame, but it's more on management than him. After all, he opted into the contract they gave him.



Actually, I think laying blame on the two parties and trying to say who is more or less at fault is the wrong way of looking at it. At fault for what? Wade being an ok basketball player who makes too much money? Who cares? All the Bulls need to be focused on now is maximizing the chance of rebuilding successfully.

If you think Wade is good enough that he'll cause you to win a couple of extra games, then you want him gone. If you think his relationship with the younger players is so poor it's going to screw up their development, then you want him gone. If you think Wade's presence means wasting perfectly good minutes on a guy who doesn't fit when they could be used to improve young players, then you want him gone. If you think he's going to be an effective veteran mentor, then you might want to keep him. I do not think he's going to be an effective veteran mentor, though I also don't expect him to be a full-on cancer.

Nobody should be mad at Wade for opting in because he wanted his money. But he apparently wants to have his cake and eat it, too - get his money but also be free to go play for a team that isn't at the very outset of a rebuild. The Bulls, knowing he wants to be free, want to save a few bucks. I don't really begrudge them giving it a shot, though after selling a draft pick, I'm less sympathetic than ever. What I'd like to see, though, is that when push comes to shove, they let him go on terms that are favorable to Wade if that's what it takes. It makes the rebuild process a lot cleaner and gets rid of noise in the locker room. Let Hoiberg play pace-and-space with the young guys without any Wade-related distractions. Treat the buyout as the cost of doing business when you blew it up. Prioritize the rebuild over saving a few shekles and saving face.

Put another way, I think it's wrong and Wade is at fault for wanting his full salary from the Bulls, yet wanting to be released from his contract before playing a single game this season. If he wants out, he should be willing to give up something to secure his freedom. But I don't think it makes sense for the Bulls to pick a big fight over it. Let him screw you over if it allows you to focus on rebuilding. Nothing else matters.
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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#136 » by RememberLu » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:09 pm

I like this thread. It's feisty.
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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#137 » by Stratmaster » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:11 pm

Mark K wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:Oh oh. Someone got their feelings hurt.


You're either trolling, being ignorant or pedalling lies when you say something as provocative as the Bulls' actions over the last 2 years have been only to please Jimmy Butler.

What a load of **** crap.


From your reaction, telling me to **** off, you are obviously way too emotionally invested in Jimmy Butler to have anything remotely close to an objective view of anything having to do with Jimmy Butler.

It's all we have heard for the last few seasons. Jimmy demands to be more and more of the offense. Jimmy says he can play PG. Jimmy declares it his team. Jimmy wants the coach to coach harder. Jimmy wants Dwayne Wade. Jimmy wants other players to try harder. I have heard "we can't waste Jimmy's prime" ad nauseum for the last 2 seasons.

Your head is in the sand if you can't see it. You may agree with it if you think Jimmy is just such a superstar that he DESERVES all that attention. But there is no way you can reasonably deny it. So take your "**** off" somewhere else. You think you can say anything you want to anyone you want. You must be a real piece of...work.
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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#138 » by kingkirk » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:15 pm

Stratmaster wrote:From your reaction, telling me to **** off, you are obviously way too emotionally invested in Jimmy Butler to have anything remotely close to an objective view of anything having to do with Jimmy Butler.


Wrong again!

I was very outspoken about wanting to trade Butler.
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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#139 » by Stratmaster » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:17 pm

Mark K wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:From your reaction, telling me to **** off, you are obviously way too emotionally invested in Jimmy Butler to have anything remotely close to an objective view of anything having to do with Jimmy Butler.


Wrong again!

I was very outspoken about wanting to trade Butler.


Oh. I forgot the best one. A hall of fame player had to declare it "Jimmy's team" before he could join. :violin:
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Re: John Paxson 670/1000 interviews 

Post#140 » by Stratmaster » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:21 pm

jnrjr79 wrote:
Mark K wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:Because EVERYTHING is the front office's fault.

A hall-of-fame player claimed he was coming here to be a professional and mentor Butler and the young players, and then instead was a pompous prima donna who seemed to purposely cause drama and rifts. That's not Wade's fault. It's the Bulls front offices fault. The fact that he put his arm around Butler and told him how the coach, the rest of the team and the front office all sucked is the front office's fault. Not Wade's fault. Wade's unwillingness to accept and work with Rondo was the front office's fault, not Wade's fault.

I mean, for 24 mil a season, what did the Bulls expect? That the person they were paying it to would actually try to perform and act in a way that HELPED the franchise? What were they thinking and how dare they call any player out for accepting their millions and millions of dollars and then trashing the team publicly?

It seems many forget that these players are getting PAID by someone. There aren't any organizations in the world that will pay an employee huge bucks and put up with the kind of comments some of these NBA players make.


No one is suggesting Wade is blameless. Do you think Bulls fans actually like defending Wade or enjoy bypassing the blame from him to someone else?

What is happening here is people are rightfully identifying the root cause for his drama: management.

Wade is a douche and deserves his share of the blame, but it's more on management than him. After all, he opted into the contract they gave him.



Actually, I think laying blame on the two parties and trying to say who is more or less at fault is the wrong way of looking at it. At fault for what? Wade being an ok basketball player who makes too much money? Who cares? All the Bulls need to be focused on now is maximizing the chance of rebuilding successfully.

If you think Wade is good enough that he'll cause you to win a couple of extra games, then you want him gone. If you think his relationship with the younger players is so poor it's going to screw up their development, then you want him gone. If you think Wade's presence means wasting perfectly good minutes on a guy who doesn't fit when they could be used to improve young players, then you want him gone. If you think he's going to be an effective veteran mentor, then you might want to keep him. I do not think he's going to be an effective veteran mentor, though I also don't expect him to be a full-on cancer.

Nobody should be mad at Wade for opting in because he wanted his money. But he apparently wants to have his cake and eat it, too - get his money but also be free to go play for a team that isn't at the very outset of a rebuild. The Bulls, knowing he wants to be free, want to save a few bucks. I don't really begrudge them giving it a shot, though after selling a draft pick, I'm less sympathetic than ever. What I'd like to see, though, is that when push comes to shove, they let him go on terms that are favorable to Wade if that's what it takes. It makes the rebuild process a lot cleaner and gets rid of noise in the locker room. Let Hoiberg play pace-and-space with the young guys without any Wade-related distractions. Treat the buyout as the cost of doing business when you blew it up. Prioritize the rebuild over saving a few shekles and saving face.

Put another way, I think it's wrong and Wade is at fault for wanting his full salary from the Bulls, yet wanting to be released from his contract before playing a single game this season. If he wants out, he should be willing to give up something to secure his freedom. But I don't think it makes sense for the Bulls to pick a big fight over it. Let him screw you over if it allows you to focus on rebuilding. Nothing else matters.


I am on board with this line of thought. I won't lose any sleep if the Bulls give him the majority of his contract to shed him. I don't think they necessarily should have to. I think 16 mil, for example, is too much. But if they give him that much...at least he is gone.

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