The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread

polo007 · Post #361 » by **polo007** » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:57 pm

polo007 wrote:

Read on Twitter

Payroll416 · Post #362 » by **Payroll416** » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:34 pm

@Fairveiw. Its no coincidence that the Dodgers (AA) are dominating, Arizona (Thole) is in the playoffs and Upton's about to join a contender. Certain players are glue guys your obviously clueless also. I guess thats why u didn't respond.

Post #363 » by **Schad** » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:44 pm

Neither Thole nor Upton have even played in the majors this season. I'm particularly interested in the idea that Thole spending the entirety of the season on the DL in AAA has propelled the D-Backs to the playoffs.

Something tells me you don't actually believe that, though, and that you're someone's second account.

Fairview4Life · Post #364 » by **Fairview4Life** » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:42 am

Payroll416 wrote:@Fairveiw. Its no coincidence that the Dodgers (AA) are dominating, Arizona (Thole) is in the playoffs and Upton's about to join a contender. Certain players are glue guys your obviously clueless also. I guess thats why u didn't respond.

Skin Blues · Post #365 » by **Skin Blues** » Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:12 pm

Did anybody actually get past the name "Thole" on that list and think the guy was anything but a troll? A little more subtlety would have helped.

flatjacket1 · Post #366 » by **flatjacket1** » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:04 pm

Skin Blues wrote:Did anybody actually get past the name "Thole" on that list and think the guy was anything but a troll? A little more subtlety would have helped.

Thole to me was pretty good defensively. IMO better than Martin.

Like Martin had 2.6 DEF fielding+positional adjustments in 1069.1 innings in 2016, but Thole in 343 innings that year had 2.9 DEF. I understand he was below average with the stick but he still had a few good seasons early in his career and from a C perspective glove first backup makes most sense.

To me Thole was a good backup, but Jays fans obviously hated him due to the fact he caught Dickey. His whole career before he had strong defensive numbers and shown flashes with the bat. I kind of feel for him too in the sense that Dickey really ruined his chance to get regular AB's. He was labelled a personal catcher at a young age and you wonder how his career would have gone not playing every 5th day and running to the backstop every other pitch.

Skin Blues · Post #367 » by **Skin Blues** » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:57 pm

flatjacket1 wrote:
Skin Blues wrote:Did anybody actually get past the name "Thole" on that list and think the guy was anything but a troll? A little more subtlety would have helped.

Thole to me was pretty good defensively. IMO better than Martin.

Like Martin had 2.6 DEF fielding+positional adjustments in 1069.1 innings in 2016, but Thole in 343 innings that year had 2.9 DEF. I understand he was below average with the stick but he still had a few good seasons early in his career and from a C perspective glove first backup makes most sense.

To me Thole was a good backup, but Jays fans obviously hated him due to the fact he caught Dickey. His whole career before he had strong defensive numbers and shown flashes with the bat. I kind of feel for him too in the sense that Dickey really ruined his chance to get regular AB's. He was labelled a personal catcher at a young age and you wonder how his career would have gone not playing every 5th day and running to the backstop every other pitch.

Is this real life? haha. Thole was with the team for 4 years and had WAR values of -0.4, 0.0, -0.3, -0.5. 3 of those 4 seasons he had a wRC+ below 40. He was a decent defensive backup catcher for 40 games per year who was arguably the worst hitter in baseball for his entire tenure with the team. And as if that wasn't enough to prove the guy was trolling, Thole didn't have a single AB with the D'Backs this year because he tore two ligaments before the season started. He must be extremely effective "glue" if he was the difference maker!

North_of_Border · Post #368 » by **North_of_Border** » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:29 am

John McDonald was a glue guy. Russel Martin is a glue guy. Marcus Stroman might be a glue guy.

Thole?... Melvin?

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Post #369 » by **Schad** » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:40 am

I agree that McDonald was pretty well the definition of a solid vet and good clubhouse presence. For an idea of how much that means divorced from actual ability to play baseball, though: John McDonald appeared in the postseason only once, after we traded him to a postseason-bound team in August 2011.

What makes baseball teams good, predominantly, is having baseball players who are good. Thole and Upton are not.

flatjacket1 · Post #370 » by **flatjacket1** » Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:16 pm

Skin Blues wrote:Is this real life? haha. Thole was with the team for 4 years and had WAR values of -0.4, 0.0, -0.3, -0.5. 3 of those 4 seasons he had a wRC+ below 40. He was a decent defensive backup catcher for 40 games per year who was arguably the worst hitter in baseball for his entire tenure with the team. And as if that wasn't enough to prove the guy was trolling, Thole didn't have a single AB with the D'Backs this year because he tore two ligaments before the season started. He must be extremely effective "glue" if he was the difference maker!

0 fWAR is still a commodity, it's not like 25% of players who appear in a season don't have negative fWAR values. His career fWAR is positive but like I said he was terrible with the bat. Defensively he's actually good though. He has 3301.1 innings behind the dish in his career and accumulated Def value of 21.4 runs. Sure majority is offset by his bat but considering he caught Dickey which killed his def value he really wasn't bad back there.

I never said he was an All-Star or good or anything, but for a backup C I would have taken him back but since we got Salty (IMO much more upside if he can regain his bat) I was fine with leaving him. He not irreplaceable by any means, but 0.0 fWAR is not exactly a throw away. 36 catchers this year have a fWAR or 0.0 or lower, out of 92 total who have played. "Replacement level" is misleading.

As a glove first backup C I'm fine with Thole. He's not garbage. Maile (-0.8 fWAR) Salty (-0.6 fWAR) and even Montero (-0.1 fWAR) all aren't that great either. If any of them were actually good they wouldn't be a backup. I also think defensive stats for catchers are lagging. If Montero doesn't throw a guy out the negative value is quite limited. In reality you lost a potential out, thus spinning the dice an extra plate appearance for the inning as well as the WPA from runner on second vs first is almost as much as getting to first in the first place. Same deal with PB's and also WP's (50% of WP's are easy blocks, a few already this year Montero tried to pick and missed). Sure that's "on the pitcher" but if you can't make that play you shouldn't be a C. Defensively a really crappy C can really turn a game upside down and they really don't get slapped too hard in terms of advanced stats.

Anyways I know that last paragraph is more subjective, but in reality Thole isn't bad. Yeah I disagree with the OP you replied to (like it was pretty flat out wrong IMO), but I simply stated Thole isn't garbage. Which IMO he isn't. I don't tie to that post really at all, it was more of a reply to you.

Side note Sanchez and Travis both are hurt as well for us, are they bad? I don't think blaming him for tearing ligaments is a thing.

polo007 · Post #371 » by **polo007** » Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:30 am

Read on Twitter

Unfortunately, Toronto hasn’t been able to keep their good pitchers healthy and productive. Last year, the Jays only used seven different starters. They’ve already used 13 different starters this season. No team has enough depth to be able to go 13 deep and maintain any level of quality.

Only Marcus Stroman has lived up to or exceeded expectations among Toronto starters. Marco Estrada struggled mightily in June and July. J.A. Happ missed over a month with elbow soreness. It has been a lost season for Aaron Sanchez because of nagging blisters. Francisco Liriano missed a month with shoulder inflammation, then struggled and was traded to the Astros. Everything that could go wrong has gone wrong.

But the Jays will have Stroman, Sanchez and Happ back in 2018, which is a great foundation for a solid starting rotation. Ideally, I’d love to see the Jays add two good starters for 2018. More realistically, a single front-line starter would protect them if Sanchez’s blisters crop up again and the team needs to move him to the bullpen. A guy like Kansas City’s Jason Vargas would be a nice addition as a free-agent signing in the off-season. The Jays can figure out their fifth starter after that.

Toronto has tried six different batters in the one spot in the lineup.

Devon Travis was supposed to be the everyday leadoff hitter, but another knee injury has wiped out his season. Kevin Pillar has served the most games as the Jays primary table-setter, but Jose Bautista, Ezequiel Carrera, Nori Aoki and now Pearce have all had at-bats there as well.

Aoki, Pearce, Carrera and Pillar would all be adequate one-day replacements for a real leadoff hitter. The Jays need to find a catalyst for their offence to put in front of Josh Donaldson and Justin Smoak. They don’t currently have that player on their team.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Counting on Travis to be a key contributor is setting the Jays up to fail again. Guys like Zack Cozart, Eduardo Nunez and Lorenzo Cain could be reasonably priced options for the Jays to consider this off-season.

polo007 · Post #372 » by **polo007** » Tue Sep 5, 2017 5:07 pm

Read on Twitter

SharoneWright · Post #373 » by **SharoneWright** » Tue Sep 5, 2017 6:08 pm

Payroll416 wrote:@Fairveiw. Its no coincidence that the Dodgers (AA) are dominating, Arizona (Thole) is in the playoffs and Upton's about to join a contender. Certain players are glue guys your obviously clueless also. I guess thats why u didn't respond.

Not to mention Fukuoka leading the Pacific League with Muni rocking a .309 OBP.

polo007 · Post #374 » by **polo007** » Fri Sep 8, 2017 5:19 pm

Read on Twitter

The Toronto Blue Jays won’t consider trading Josh Donaldson unless they could find a trade that improves them for the 2018 season, sources tell FanRag Sports. Which is to say, he almost surely isn’t going anywhere.

There has been a lot of speculation about a deal for Donaldson, and it’s possible Toronto could look at trades this winter, but the reality is that he will stay put. Blue Jays people believe they can compete next year. And why not? They weren’t far out of the race this year, and they suffered more injuries to stars than anyone in the league, with Aaron Sanchez, Troy Tulowitzki, Devon Travis, J.A. Happ and Donaldson himself all missing significant time this year.

Toronto really does have a fine nucleus, and while Jose Bautista and Marco Estrada are among free agents following the season, most key guys are all back next year, including Donaldson, who has a .947 OPS in the second half.

Jays people also believe they’ll have more depth in the minors next year, which will fortify them for the inevitable injuries.

polo007 · Post #375 » by **polo007** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:04 pm

Read on Twitter

polo007 · Post #376 » by **polo007** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:12 pm

Read on Twitter

dagger · Post #377 » by **dagger** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:36 am

polo007 wrote:

Read on Twitter

They are not going to win until 2020 anyway.

polo007 · Post #378 » by **polo007** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:24 pm

Read on Twitter

SharoneWright · Post #379 » by **SharoneWright** » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:00 am

Heard the new PBP guy on the radio last night for about five minutes. Ben something? Seemed like a real pro. Liked him. I assume it's a succession plan for Jerry. I could only wish that Joe was gone next year as well.

polo007 · Post #380 » by **polo007** » Thu Nov 2, 2017 8:12 am

Read on Twitter