Alex Len

[ATTL]

Exactly. Trading for soon-to-be FA's is also a guaranteed road to success. That worked out super well for LA with Dwight.

Dwight was also a super douche. There is no best way to build a team, it takes a ton of luck, players being in the right place at the right time, having the right coach, etc.. You can draft high every year, doesn't mean you'll be a success. Free agency/trades are also hit or miss.

Seems like we do much better drafting out out of the top 5.

Booker 13
Warren 14
Marion 9
Stoudemire 9
Nash 15
Finley 21
Majerle 14
Nance 20

Also we have been blessed to be bad in years with bad drafts, other than this past year. It probably would have benefitted us to be a bit better in the year we drafted Len. Maybe we do draft Giannis or gobert if we fell to the end of the lotto instead.

[AtheJ415]

Or a certified all-star like Kyrie Irving.

Exactly. Trading for soon-to-be FA's is also a guaranteed road to success. That worked out super well for LA with Dwight.

Dwight was also a super douche. There is no best way to build a team, it takes a ton of luck, players being in the right place at the right time, having the right coach, etc.. You can draft high every year, doesn't mean you'll be a success. Free agency/trades are also hit or miss.

Exactly. Kind of my point, which is why I don't understand some posters who want to harp about draft pick odds as if they really prove anything. Trading is as likely to be winning/losing. In our scenario, youth is the key factor.

[bigfoot]

Exactly. Trading for soon-to-be FA's is also a guaranteed road to success. That worked out super well for LA with Dwight.

Dwight was also a super douche. There is no best way to build a team, it takes a ton of luck, players being in the right place at the right time, having the right coach, etc.. You can draft high every year, doesn't mean you'll be a success. Free agency/trades are also hit or miss.

Exactly. Kind of my point, which is why I don't understand some posters who want to harp about draft pick odds as if they really prove anything. Trading is as likely to be winning/losing. In our scenario, youth is the key factor.

You're against free agents
You're against trades

All you post is tanking to get a good draft pick. You are fool to think that the only way to develop a team is through the draft. All you do is bitch and whine about other peoples ideas you crazy one-track douche.

Attack the post, not the poster. Personal attacks is not tolerated. -LF22

[AtheJ415]

Dwight was also a super douche. There is no best way to build a team, it takes a ton of luck, players being in the right place at the right time, having the right coach, etc.. You can draft high every year, doesn't mean you'll be a success. Free agency/trades are also hit or miss.

Exactly. Kind of my point, which is why I don't understand some posters who want to harp about draft pick odds as if they really prove anything. Trading is as likely to be winning/losing. In our scenario, youth is the key factor.

You're against free agents
You're against trades

All you post is tanking to get a good draft pick. You are fool to think that the only way to develop a team is through the draft. All you do is bitch and whine about other peoples ideas you crazy one-track douche.

Nope. I'm against the free agents YOU WANT and the trades YOU WANT, because they lack all common sense given the make up of the rest of the team. At least I back up my stuff with some sense of rational thought and complete stats. You post like a wind up doll. I don't even have to read your posts to know what you are going to say, and it is almost always a half story that doesn't even consider any other side. I don't need to resort to name-calling because the quality of your posts on here speak for themselves.

[Saberestar]

Read on Twitter

[Frank Lee]

Of any top 5 draft pick the Suns have ever made I think Alex Len may be the worst.

Bender 4
Jackson 4
Len 5
Armen Gilliam 2
Walter Davis 5
Alvin Adams 4
Jon Shumate 4
Corky Calhoun 4
Neal Walk 2

For the tanking fans (cough) out there it's 2 out of 7 chance of getting a good-great players (Adams - 1 all star appearance / Davis 6 - all star appearances). Damn I hope both Bender and Jackson pan out.

Good point. That's why it's a much better deal to rebuild via trade by trading the youngsters for rising stars like Brandon Knight.

I sense myopic sarcasm there....You want to criticize the methods of rebuilding by pointing out the worst trade to date, so be it. Of course, the FO followed up that trade with what appears a wasted 70 mill contract...Thus a double whammy. Bad trade bad signing. But our past successes have always been a blend of player acquisitions. You can easily argue we have added as many or more quality impact players via trade or free agency than through the draft. We have hit gold a couple times picking these youngsters, but the one and done landscape of the draft has turned it into a 2-3 year crap shoot. As repeatedly discussed, and largely agreed upon, after the first 2-3 players.... you have an equal chance at finding a valid contributing pro up through the teens and occasionally beyond.

The difficulty of today is, you may not know how good/bad your rook is until 2-3 years in... and as with Len... his grace period has expired. I think what we have ended up with is very little options but to embrace the draft as we have hit a dry spell in attracting FAs... and we do not have but picks to trade. I would imagine, eventually McD will stumble onto a deal that sends some of the 'pony' express down the trail for who knows what.... but by that time... may be one more kid steps up to deserve starter minutes. You just hope it happens before you have to re-up his deal. (see Warren and the upcoming decision with him) Of course the kid then becomes a trade asset. This is an ongoing crazy circle caused by the 2 to 3 year delay between what we think a young player CAN be, and what he really is. I have no problems with where we are. McDo tried to snag some superstar/allstar talent... but no takers. Next best thing is to hope he drafted one. Lets find out and soon. Im sure eventually he'll quit kissing his sister and land someone. But he got stung with Knight, and stung hard. More to lose than gain in free agency ? Certainly more expensive than drafting.


On a larger coffee inspired avenue...... It seems like the entire league has been turned upside down with the CBA/TV deal and the disgusting lustful search for the next superstar(s) your team can over hype and market around. The narcissistic behavior of these players (well, society in general...) has inflated egos and self importance. The have formed a fraternity that no longer has built in animosity based on the jersey you wear. Fans are rivals, players aren't. The player/owner/agent relationship has been polluted with collusion and greed. TV money has made it easier for the NBA owner to survive... so they can be mediocre and still profit. It allows Owners to take bigger risks with whacked FA signings and even go all in tank mode. Sell the fans on drafting the next ? year after year. Christ.... we are already talking about drafting next year. There is so much hype and promise put on these 19-20 year olds....its the glitz and glam game now... flash equals cash.

The true focus should be, IMO, is finding a high quality coach. But coaches dont SELL tickets... they dont SELL jerseys. Case in point, name the top 5 coaches.... unless you are a junked up NBA addict... its hard. Pops, Thibs, Stevens? .... um.... um.... Spolstra..... hmmmm Carlisle dare I say D'Ant? ..... heck if it wasn't for the revolving coach door here and our castoffs, I dont think I could name 10.

However, I can't fault the players for grabbing as much dough as they can.... its these owners who are allowed to operate by putting a shabby team on the court year end and out. Is the talent pool so watered down now ? I can't remember the last time a team/owner was in jeopardy of losing the franchise due to bottom line difficulties. It seems no longer does attendance matter. Just keep selling the corporate seats. Attendance is not an important revenue source it once was (I make an assumption here thinking it once WAS) The owners look to be economically insulated from making bad decisions. And now we are soon to have sponsors on the jerseys??? Here Mr Owner, yet another source of revenue to offset your inability to field a good team. Who cares if your arena is 2/3's empty. They have built in profitability and virtually no risk at losing money.


I may be thumping the 'old school', 'back in the day' gavel here , but the whole NBA equation has changed to a model that I find harder and harder to accept. Suck bad enough and eventually you will be better. Get three superstars together or you will lose the one you have. ugh. Take your family to the game for $400+

Gotta go.... there is a kid in my yard.

[NavLDO]

For the tanking fans (cough) out there it's 2 out of 7 chance of getting a good-great players (Adams - 1 all star appearance / Davis 6 - all star appearances). Damn I hope both Bender and Jackson pan out.

Good point. That's why it's a much better deal to rebuild via trade by trading the youngsters for rising stars like Brandon Knight.

I sense myopic sarcasm there....You want to criticize the methods of rebuilding by pointing out the worst trade to date, so be it. Of course, the FO followed up that trade with what appears a wasted 70 mill contract...Thus a double whammy. Bad trade bad signing. But our past successes have always been a blend of player acquisitions. You can easily argue we have added as many or more quality impact players via trade or free agency than through the draft. We have hit gold a couple times picking these youngsters, but the one and done landscape of the draft has turned it into a 2-3 year crap shoot. As repeatedly discussed, and largely agreed upon, after the first 2-3 players.... you have an equal chance at finding a valid contributing pro up through the teens and occasionally beyond.

The difficulty of today is, you may not know how good/bad your rook is until 2-3 years in... and as with Len... his grace period has expired. I think what we have ended up with is very little options but to embrace the draft as we have hit a dry spell in attracting FAs... and we do not have but picks to trade. I would imagine, eventually McD will stumble onto a deal that sends some of the 'pony' express down the trail for who knows what.... but by that time... may be one more kid steps up to deserve starter minutes. You just hope it happens before you have to re-up his deal. (see Warren and the upcoming decision with him) Of course the kid then becomes a trade asset. This is an ongoing crazy circle caused by the 2 to 3 year delay between what we think a young player CAN be, and what he really is. I have no problems with where we are. McDo tried to snag some superstar/allstar talent... but no takers. Next best thing is to hope he drafted one. Lets find out and soon. Im sure eventually he'll quit kissing his sister and land someone. But he got stung with Knight, and stung hard. More to lose than gain in free agency ? Certainly more expensive than drafting.


On a larger coffee inspired avenue...... It seems like the entire league has been turned upside down with the CBA/TV deal and the disgusting lustful search for the next superstar(s) your team can over hype and market around. The narcissistic behavior of these players (well, society in general...) has inflated egos and self importance. The have formed a fraternity that no longer has built in animosity based on the jersey you wear. Fans are rivals, players aren't. The player/owner/agent relationship has been polluted with collusion and greed. TV money has made it easier for the NBA owner to survive... so they can be mediocre and still profit. It allows Owners to take bigger risks with whacked FA signings and even go all in tank mode. Sell the fans on drafting the next ? year after year. Christ.... we are already talking about drafting next year. There is so much hype and promise put on these 19-20 year olds....its the glitz and glam game now... flash equals cash.

The true focus should be, IMO, is finding a high quality coach. But coaches dont SELL tickets... they dont SELL jerseys. Case in point, name the top 5 coaches.... unless you are a junked up NBA addict... its hard. Pops, Thibs, Stevens? .... um.... um.... Spolstra..... hmmmm Carlisle dare I say D'Ant? ..... heck if it wasn't for the revolving coach door here and our castoffs, I dont think I could name 10.

However, I can't fault the players for grabbing as much dough as they can.... its these owners who are allowed to operate by putting a shabby team on the court year end and out. Is the talent pool so watered down now ? I can't remember the last time a team/owner was in jeopardy of losing the franchise due to bottom line difficulties. It seems no longer does attendance matter. Just keep selling the corporate seats. Attendance is not an important revenue source it once was (I make an assumption here thinking it once WAS) The owners look to be economically insulated from making bad decisions. And now we are soon to have sponsors on the jerseys??? Here Mr Owner, yet another source of revenue to offset your inability to field a good team. Who cares if your arena is 2/3's empty. They have built in profitability and virtually no risk at losing money.


I may be thumping the 'old school', 'back in the day' gavel here , but the whole NBA equation has changed to a model that I find harder and harder to accept. Suck bad enough and eventually you will be better. Get three superstars together or you will lose the one you have. ugh. Take your family to the game for $400+

Gotta go.... there is a kid in my yard.

Sorry, Frank, didn't know that was your yard...

Seriously though, I don't think Len's 'grace period' should yet be expired; he's never been allotted an entire season starting to know for sure. He's not blameless; I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that between injuries, inconsistent expectations of his play, favoritism, and his own inability to not foul out early--all have combined to prevent us from really ever getting to see Len as a starter for a full season.

AtheJ had an interesting-ish idea in the other thread on Len; and actually, if we are just going to play the youth anyway this year, we should bring back Len in some capacity, regardless of the contract type. If he comes back on the QO, fine; if we give him a 2-3 year deal at back-up money ($8M per), that's fine, too. Or, we could sign him to starter money for one season...say $12M, with a PO in year 2 at $8M. If he sucks, he pay him $8M next season to be our back-up; he'll still be better than Mozgov, Mahinmi, Plumlee, Asik, Leonard, etc. If he shows to be a good starter, he can rip up the paper, and we still got a good starting Center for $12M...or we paid a back-up-level Center for $12M, whatever...we're paying BK and Chandler $13M, what's the difference if we are tanking anyway?

The point is, all these other 'great' Centers from that class have all had a chance to start for an entire season; Len has never started more than 46 games or 23 mpg in a season...I don't really call that him being allotted an entire season of 70+ games and 28+ MPG to see how he fares. Sometimes, guys just need that opportunity. Again, he's blown some of the opportunities himself, but a lot has been due to injury or our HC.

[Saberestar]

McDonough said nothing has changed regarding the status of restricted free-agent center Alex Len, who has until Oct. 1 to sign the Suns’ one-year, $4.2 million qualifying offer.

Center Nerlens Noel recently signed his one-year, $4.1 million qualifying offer from the Dallas Mavericks but when asked if he thought that might affect Len’s position, McDonough said, “You’ll have to ask Alex.”

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2017/08/30/phoenix-suns-davon-reed-ryan-mcdonough-peter-jok-josh-jackson-devin-booker/617035001/

[Sreister]

Good point. That's why it's a much better deal to rebuild via trade by trading the youngsters for rising stars like Brandon Knight.

I sense myopic sarcasm there....You want to criticize the methods of rebuilding by pointing out the worst trade to date, so be it. Of course, the FO followed up that trade with what appears a wasted 70 mill contract...Thus a double whammy. Bad trade bad signing. But our past successes have always been a blend of player acquisitions. You can easily argue we have added as many or more quality impact players via trade or free agency than through the draft. We have hit gold a couple times picking these youngsters, but the one and done landscape of the draft has turned it into a 2-3 year crap shoot. As repeatedly discussed, and largely agreed upon, after the first 2-3 players.... you have an equal chance at finding a valid contributing pro up through the teens and occasionally beyond.

The difficulty of today is, you may not know how good/bad your rook is until 2-3 years in... and as with Len... his grace period has expired. I think what we have ended up with is very little options but to embrace the draft as we have hit a dry spell in attracting FAs... and we do not have but picks to trade. I would imagine, eventually McD will stumble onto a deal that sends some of the 'pony' express down the trail for who knows what.... but by that time... may be one more kid steps up to deserve starter minutes. You just hope it happens before you have to re-up his deal. (see Warren and the upcoming decision with him) Of course the kid then becomes a trade asset. This is an ongoing crazy circle caused by the 2 to 3 year delay between what we think a young player CAN be, and what he really is. I have no problems with where we are. McDo tried to snag some superstar/allstar talent... but no takers. Next best thing is to hope he drafted one. Lets find out and soon. Im sure eventually he'll quit kissing his sister and land someone. But he got stung with Knight, and stung hard. More to lose than gain in free agency ? Certainly more expensive than drafting.


On a larger coffee inspired avenue...... It seems like the entire league has been turned upside down with the CBA/TV deal and the disgusting lustful search for the next superstar(s) your team can over hype and market around. The narcissistic behavior of these players (well, society in general...) has inflated egos and self importance. The have formed a fraternity that no longer has built in animosity based on the jersey you wear. Fans are rivals, players aren't. The player/owner/agent relationship has been polluted with collusion and greed. TV money has made it easier for the NBA owner to survive... so they can be mediocre and still profit. It allows Owners to take bigger risks with whacked FA signings and even go all in tank mode. Sell the fans on drafting the next ? year after year. Christ.... we are already talking about drafting next year. There is so much hype and promise put on these 19-20 year olds....its the glitz and glam game now... flash equals cash.

The true focus should be, IMO, is finding a high quality coach. But coaches dont SELL tickets... they dont SELL jerseys. Case in point, name the top 5 coaches.... unless you are a junked up NBA addict... its hard. Pops, Thibs, Stevens? .... um.... um.... Spolstra..... hmmmm Carlisle dare I say D'Ant? ..... heck if it wasn't for the revolving coach door here and our castoffs, I dont think I could name 10.

However, I can't fault the players for grabbing as much dough as they can.... its these owners who are allowed to operate by putting a shabby team on the court year end and out. Is the talent pool so watered down now ? I can't remember the last time a team/owner was in jeopardy of losing the franchise due to bottom line difficulties. It seems no longer does attendance matter. Just keep selling the corporate seats. Attendance is not an important revenue source it once was (I make an assumption here thinking it once WAS) The owners look to be economically insulated from making bad decisions. And now we are soon to have sponsors on the jerseys??? Here Mr Owner, yet another source of revenue to offset your inability to field a good team. Who cares if your arena is 2/3's empty. They have built in profitability and virtually no risk at losing money.


I may be thumping the 'old school', 'back in the day' gavel here , but the whole NBA equation has changed to a model that I find harder and harder to accept. Suck bad enough and eventually you will be better. Get three superstars together or you will lose the one you have. ugh. Take your family to the game for $400+

Gotta go.... there is a kid in my yard.

Sorry, Frank, didn't know that was your yard...

Seriously though, I don't think Len's 'grace period' should yet be expired; he's never been allotted an entire season starting to know for sure. He's not blameless; I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that between injuries, inconsistent expectations of his play, favoritism, and his own inability to not foul out early--all have combined to prevent us from really ever getting to see Len as a starter for a full season.

AtheJ had an interesting-ish idea in the other thread on Len; and actually, if we are just going to play the youth anyway this year, we should bring back Len in some capacity, regardless of the contract type. If he comes back on the QO, fine; if we give him a 2-3 year deal at back-up money ($8M per), that's fine, too. Or, we could sign him to starter money for one season...say $12M, with a PO in year 2 at $8M. If he sucks, he pay him $8M next season to be our back-up; he'll still be better than Mozgov, Mahinmi, Plumlee, Asik, Leonard, etc. If he shows to be a good starter, he can rip up the paper, and we still got a good starting Center for $12M...or we paid a back-up-level Center for $12M, whatever...we're paying BK and Chandler $13M, what's the difference if we are tanking anyway?

The point is, all these other 'great' Centers from that class have all had a chance to start for an entire season; Len has never started more than 46 games or 23 mpg in a season...I don't really call that him being allotted an entire season of 70+ games and 28+ MPG to see how he fares. Sometimes, guys just need that opportunity. Again, he's blown some of the opportunities himself, but a lot has been due to injury or our HC.

This. I'll just add that Centers from the same mold as Len (see ROLO) typically take a while to play well, and then only do so for about 3 seasons. I don't want to lock him up SUPER long term, but he's serviceable and the longer he waits, the better it is for us.

If he bets on himself and signs the QO, Chandler stands in his way to blow up this year and get a huge contract. If he signs with us, it should be 3 years or so for ~8m a year, give or take. Unfortunately, he's in kind of a bad position in that way. We have a lot of leverage.

[garrick]

Dwight was also a super douche. There is no best way to build a team, it takes a ton of luck, players being in the right place at the right time, having the right coach, etc.. You can draft high every year, doesn't mean you'll be a success. Free agency/trades are also hit or miss.

Seems like we do much better drafting out out of the top 5.

Booker 13
Warren 14
Marion 9
Stoudemire 9
Nash 15
Finley 21
Majerle 14
Nance 20

Also we have been blessed to be bad in years with bad drafts, other than this past year. It probably would have benefitted us to be a bit better in the year we drafted Len. Maybe we do draft Giannis or gobert if we fell to the end of the lotto instead.

Also
Cedric Ceballos (2nd round)
Oliver Miller
Richard Dumas

[Mulhollanddrive]

Len won't even play (behind Chandler and Williams) and then he risks being out of the league and having to go overseas.

He's in a tough position unless another team gaurantees him playing time even for minimum salary.

[Saberestar]

Len won't even play (behind Chandler and Williams) and then he risks being out of the league and having to go overseas.

He's in a tough position unless another team gaurantees him playing time even for minimum salary.

He has an offer on the table to play next year for $4.2M, so I don't think he is in a "tough" position.

At this point I do not want him on the team anymore.

He is not an exciting player, not a talented/skilled player who loves/breathes basketball. He is just a tall guy who is a good athlete for his size...that is the only reason why he is in the NBA.
He probably will never understand or love basketball ala Tyler Ulis, Booker or Warren.

I like that this type of players are not big rewarded this offseason like in the past.

[Phystic]

Has there been ANY word on Len signing? I haven't seen any reports of negotiations or anything about him since the season ended.

[sunsbum]

Len died yesterday in a fatal rebounding accident.

[Revived]

After Noel took the QO, I can see Len doing the same thing and hoping he has a big year next season to get paid later.

[lilfishi22]

I wonder if we ever made any "reasonable" offers to him earlier in the offseason. Sometihng like $5-7m a year for 4

[Mulhollanddrive]

64 players last season averaged a double-double per 36 minutes.

That might explain why Williams and Len didn't get better offers despite their own stats looking good.

Some of the other guys include - Marjanovic, Dedmon, O'Quinn, McGee, Pachulia, Reed, Black, Felicio, Baynes.

[LukasBMW]

It's gonna be the QO or a "Sauce style" deal.

If I'm Len, I just take the QO. That way if I play well this year, I can get paid next year.

If I play like trash or get hurt, even if I signed the "sauce style" 3 year deal, I'd still get cut since the last two years are not guaranteed.

[Damkac]

Now when Sauce is injured Len has his last chance to show he has future with the team. I hope he won't waste it.

[Mulhollanddrive]

He just got a big break.