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Around the league 2017-2018

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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#521 » by Ericb5 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:26 pm

TTP wrote:
Chris76 wrote:
Ericb5 wrote:
Kobe and MJ were bigger, faster, and way better defenders though.


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Kobe and MJ we're tenacious at defense, Draymond plays that way.

Obviously Fultz shouldn't be compared to hall of famers. However, he should have some of their elite skills.
He could be our late in the shot clock scorer. He easily gets quick looks with his hesitation moves.


Kobe's defense was probably pretty overrated due to subjective awards. Even though he made nine defensive 1st teams (and three 2nd teams), it's more likely he was a negative defender than an all-time great defender, as that resume would suggest.


Kobe wasn't an alltime great defender, but he was clearly a very good defensive player. I watched him his whole career, and while he couldn't stop Iverson one on one, as nobody could, he did as good a job as any player that ever tried.
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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#522 » by TTP » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:35 pm

Ericb5 wrote:
TTP wrote:
Chris76 wrote:

Kobe and MJ we're tenacious at defense, Draymond plays that way.

Obviously Fultz shouldn't be compared to hall of famers. However, he should have some of their elite skills.
He could be our late in the shot clock scorer. He easily gets quick looks with his hesitation moves.


Kobe's defense was probably pretty overrated due to subjective awards. Even though he made nine defensive 1st teams (and three 2nd teams), it's more likely he was a negative defender than an all-time great defender, as that resume would suggest.


Kobe wasn't an alltime great defender, but he was clearly a very good defensive player. I watched him his whole career, and while he couldn't stop Iverson one on one, as nobody could, he did as good a job as any player that ever tried.


I'm not sure how clear it was. His teams weren't really better defensively when he was on the court.

For years where we have data prior to his injury, here's his opponent's on/off points/100 split. Negative means the opposing team scored less while Kobe was on the court.

00-01: -3.3
01-02: +8.9
02-03: -1.0
03-04: +0.7
04-05: +2.3
05-06: +6.4
06-07: -1.0
07-08: -0.8
08-09: +1.5
09-10: -3.4
10-11: +4.4
11-12: -2.9
12-13: +4.3

His team's defense was better when he was on the court for 6 out of 13 seasons. Throughout this entire sample, the Lakers' defense was 1.2 points worse when he was on the court.

Maybe he was good at certain aspects of defense but it doesn't seem to have resulted in the Lakers defense actually being better over a massive sample of minutes, which isn't the case for similarly regarded elite guard/wing defenders like LeBron, Bowen, Kidd, Kawhi, Tony Allen, etc.

It seems more likely that he was a merely average defender, which is understandable given how much energy he expended on the other end.
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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#523 » by Ericb5 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:45 am

TTP wrote:
Ericb5 wrote:
TTP wrote:
Kobe's defense was probably pretty overrated due to subjective awards. Even though he made nine defensive 1st teams (and three 2nd teams), it's more likely he was a negative defender than an all-time great defender, as that resume would suggest.


Kobe wasn't an alltime great defender, but he was clearly a very good defensive player. I watched him his whole career, and while he couldn't stop Iverson one on one, as nobody could, he did as good a job as any player that ever tried.


I'm not sure how clear it was. His teams weren't really better defensively when he was on the court.

For years where we have data prior to his injury, here's his opponent's on/off points/100 split. Negative means the opposing team scored less while Kobe was on the court.

00-01: -3.3
01-02: +8.9
02-03: -1.0
03-04: +0.7
04-05: +2.3
05-06: +6.4
06-07: -1.0
07-08: -0.8
08-09: +1.5
09-10: -3.4
10-11: +4.4
11-12: -2.9
12-13: +4.3

His team's defense was better when he was on the court for 6 out of 13 seasons. Throughout this entire sample, the Lakers' defense was 1.2 points worse when he was on the court.

Maybe he was good at certain aspects of defense but it doesn't seem to have resulted in the Lakers defense actually being better over a massive sample of minutes, which isn't the case for similarly regarded elite guard/wing defenders like LeBron, Bowen, Kidd, Kawhi, Tony Allen, etc.

It seems more likely that he was a merely average defender, which is understandable given how much energy he expended on the other end.


Are old enough to have watched his entire career, or do you only remember the late part of his career?




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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#524 » by TTP » Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:36 am

Ericb5 wrote:
TTP wrote:
Ericb5 wrote:
Kobe wasn't an alltime great defender, but he was clearly a very good defensive player. I watched him his whole career, and while he couldn't stop Iverson one on one, as nobody could, he did as good a job as any player that ever tried.


I'm not sure how clear it was. His teams weren't really better defensively when he was on the court.

For years where we have data prior to his injury, here's his opponent's on/off points/100 split. Negative means the opposing team scored less while Kobe was on the court.

00-01: -3.3
01-02: +8.9
02-03: -1.0
03-04: +0.7
04-05: +2.3
05-06: +6.4
06-07: -1.0
07-08: -0.8
08-09: +1.5
09-10: -3.4
10-11: +4.4
11-12: -2.9
12-13: +4.3

His team's defense was better when he was on the court for 6 out of 13 seasons. Throughout this entire sample, the Lakers' defense was 1.2 points worse when he was on the court.

Maybe he was good at certain aspects of defense but it doesn't seem to have resulted in the Lakers defense actually being better over a massive sample of minutes, which isn't the case for similarly regarded elite guard/wing defenders like LeBron, Bowen, Kidd, Kawhi, Tony Allen, etc.

It seems more likely that he was a merely average defender, which is understandable given how much energy he expended on the other end.


Are old enough to have watched his entire career, or do you only remember the late part of his career?




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Yes I'm in my 30s but I'm not sure how relevant that is. Eye test and human judgement ends up with a lot of bias which leads to Kobe being named 1st team All Defense 9 times. It should be alarming to the eye testers that the numbers don't back up the narrative over a massive sample of minutes.

Also being good at defending one on one does not necessarily mean someone is a good defender. It's still possible for Kobe to be great at defending his man and still be a negative defender if he's horrendous at all of the other aspects of team defense. I don't think humans (or statistics really) are great at understanding or measuring this, but at least looking at on/off defensive splits gives us a decent idea of whether a player actually makes his team's defense better.
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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#525 » by Ericb5 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:48 am

Forget the numbers. Kobe was a really good defender. Eye test is all that you need.


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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#526 » by 76ciology » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:39 am

I hope Melo sign with Cavs.

GSW-Cavs part 3 should be epic
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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#527 » by Mrcrockpots » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:24 pm

76ciology wrote:I hope Melo sign with Cavs.

GSW-Cavs part 3 should be epic


Add another variable to the Sixers winning 45-50 games this year. If/when the Knicks trade Carmelo, they are easily the among the worst teams in the NBA. Better yet, we play the Knicks twice at home after the trade deadline this year. Add 2 easy Ws to the list.
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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#528 » by smittybanton » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:33 pm

Carmelo in OKC! Nice.

Doug McDermott & Enes Kanter to NYK.

Pelicans need a SF, since Solomon Hill went down. McDermott off the market improves the market for Justin Anderson.

Pelicans were interested in Okafor. Enes Kanter off the market improves the market for Jahlil.

On one hand, Jrue Holiday gets half a mil if he plays 66games, on the other hand, they want him to guard the Paul George's and Kevin Durant's?

Since no other Western Conference team threw in the towel, NO is looking at the outside of hte playoffs, and losing Demarcus Cousins to free agency next summer.

Justin Anderson and Jahlil Okafor for NO18(unprotected). Two players who fill roles for the team this year, and can surround Anthony Davis if/when Boogie leaves.
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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#529 » by smittybanton » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:04 pm

OKC may need a) a backup center, since they gave up Kanter, who needs to be young, since there's a chance they have to rebuild; and b) salary cap relief, since they're even more over the luxury tax line ($28M), and have to pay these guys even more next year.

If Abrines has surpassed Andre Roberson, OKC may want to move his K ($9M/yr).
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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#530 » by the_process » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:19 pm

smittybanton wrote:Carmelo in OKC! Nice.

Doug McDermott & Enes Kanter to NYK.

Pelicans need a SF, since Solomon Hill went down. McDermott off the market improves the market for Justin Anderson.

Pelicans were interested in Okafor. Enes Kanter off the market improves the market for Jahlil.

On one hand, Jrue Holiday gets half a mil if he plays 66games, on the other hand, they want him to guard the Paul George's and Kevin Durant's?

Since no other Western Conference team threw in the towel, NO is looking at the outside of hte playoffs, and losing Demarcus Cousins to free agency next summer.

Justin Anderson and Jahlil Okafor for NO18(unprotected). Two players who fill roles for the team this year, and can surround Anthony Davis if/when Boogie leaves.


Last year the rumor was NOP offered Asik and a top 20 protected 1st for Okafor. Even if they doubled their offer with Anderson attached... that’s still eating Asik and a top 10 protected 1st. Which if you get declining protections instead of two 2nds could be worth it.

smittybanton wrote:OKC may need a) a backup center, since they gave up Kanter, who needs to be young, since there's a chance they have to rebuild; and b) salary cap relief, since they're even more over the luxury tax line ($28M), and have to pay these guys even more next year.

If Abrines has surpassed Andre Roberson, OKC may want to move his K ($9M/yr).


Anderson and Okafor for Singler and Ferguson.
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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#531 » by Ericb5 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:57 pm

smittybanton wrote:Carmelo in OKC! Nice.

Doug McDermott & Enes Kanter to NYK.

Pelicans need a SF, since Solomon Hill went down. McDermott off the market improves the market for Justin Anderson.

Pelicans were interested in Okafor. Enes Kanter off the market improves the market for Jahlil.

On one hand, Jrue Holiday gets half a mil if he plays 66games, on the other hand, they want him to guard the Paul George's and Kevin Durant's?

Since no other Western Conference team threw in the towel, NO is looking at the outside of hte playoffs, and losing Demarcus Cousins to free agency next summer.

Justin Anderson and Jahlil Okafor for NO18(unprotected). Two players who fill roles for the team this year, and can surround Anthony Davis if/when Boogie leaves.


Westbrook and Melo are a horrible combination.


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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#532 » by Negrodamus » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:05 pm

I hope Westbrook enjoys his MVP trophy, because there's no way he's winning another one with Melo and Paul George on the team.
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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#533 » by GoSixersBro » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:36 pm

76ciology wrote:I hope Melo sign with Cavs.

GSW-Cavs part 3 should be epic


Part 4*
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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#534 » by Negrodamus » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:54 pm

Negrodamus wrote:I hope Westbrook enjoys his MVP trophy, because there's no way he's winning another one with Melo and Paul George on the team.


But don't get me wrong, they will be an offensive juggernaut. Carmelo will be in his natural position of PF in OKC. With Adams at C, George at SF, and Westbrook at PG, there aren't many teams that will be able to keep up with them. Defensively, however, they will probably suck.
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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#535 » by Chris76 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:21 pm

Negrodamus wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:I hope Westbrook enjoys his MVP trophy, because there's no way he's winning another one with Melo and Paul George on the team.


But don't get me wrong, they will be an offensive juggernaut. Carmelo will be in his natural position of PF in OKC. With Adams at C, George at SF, and Westbrook at PG, there aren't many teams that will be able to keep up with them. Defensively, however, they will probably suck.


Melo could have a heart attack chasing Simmons around!
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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#536 » by Chris76 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:21 pm

Negrodamus wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:I hope Westbrook enjoys his MVP trophy, because there's no way he's winning another one with Melo and Paul George on the team.


But don't get me wrong, they will be an offensive juggernaut. Carmelo will be in his natural position of PF in OKC. With Adams at C, George at SF, and Westbrook at PG, there aren't many teams that will be able to keep up with them. Defensively, however, they will probably suck.


Melo could have a heart attack chasing Simmons around!
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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#537 » by Sixerscan » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:59 am

Negrodamus wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:I hope Westbrook enjoys his MVP trophy, because there's no way he's winning another one with Melo and Paul George on the team.


But don't get me wrong, they will be an offensive juggernaut. Carmelo will be in his natural position of PF in OKC. With Adams at C, George at SF, and Westbrook at PG, there aren't many teams that will be able to keep up with them. Defensively, however, they will probably suck.


Adams, George and Roberson are all very good. Westbrook will be better now that he can take a step back again. Patterson will be their 6th man and he's solid.

Also on the plus side they won't be playing Kanter or McDermott
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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#538 » by Sixerscan » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:28 am

Oh forgot they have Jerami too. Thunder haven't been below average defensively since westbrooks rookie year, they'll be fine on that end.

More curious as to how good the offense will be. Probably need to get to like top 8 to really be dangerous.
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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#539 » by LloydFree » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:38 am

Negrodamus wrote:I hope Westbrook enjoys his MVP trophy, because there's no way he's winning another one with Melo and Paul George on the team.

Why would he care? One is all you need. It punches your ticket to the Hall of Fame and gets you a 200 million dollar super-max offer. He's already won at life.
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Re: Around the league 2017-2018 

Post#540 » by Negrodamus » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:28 am

LloydFree wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:I hope Westbrook enjoys his MVP trophy, because there's no way he's winning another one with Melo and Paul George on the team.

Why would he care? One is all you need. It punches your ticket to the Hall of Fame and gets you a 200 million dollar super-max offer. He's already won at life.


I don't know Russell Westbrook personally, but he doesn't strike me as a person that is easily content. All of those things are great, but I feel he strives to be the greatest.

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