The Legend of Joel Embiid

[ProcessDoctor]

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He's freaking huge...

[LongLiveHinkie]

no need to rush him

If 6 months is rushing a guy who is 100% healthy, what isn't rushing? a year?

I still don't understand by what standard they are being conservative. They said there are criteria ("criterion", actually, because BC gon BC) that he has to accomplish. That implies there is some sort of objective test that he has to pass because he can play 5 on 5. They are acting like this test is some sort of passive thing that just sort of happens out of mid air, when it actuality their medical staff is the one that chooses when and where he takes this test.

I am wondering whether they tried to make him take these tests, and failed, which implies some sort of setback (Even if its just something like, "go x amount of days without pain" it seems like that sort of thing should have been accomplished in 6 months of normal slow healing). Or if they have just decided from a while back that he wasn't going to take all of these tests until a certain date with the idea that he does not have to be ready until opening night. (For example, "squat your body weight 10 times without pain", and they haven't let him near a squat rack)

If the latter was actually their plan all along, it would sure be nice if they said that, because it would imply that they have some sort of control over the situation.

Well, unless I read incorrectly, this is all the information I have gathered about Embiid from media day. Assuming all were speaking truthfully:

-Embiid claims to be and feel 100%
-Feels great, feels ready for basketball
-Has spent the offseason learning how to land better and not be more reckless diving for loose balls
-Every scan and test has come back perfect
-No setbacks
-No additional procedures
-No additional swelling

If that doesn't check every box on some list of protocols before letting him play, what else is left? Are they gonna throw him out of the rafters like a test dummy to see if he can handle the fall like they do at crime scenes? I mean c'mon here already, Sixers.

[sixerhp3]

If 6 months is rushing a guy who is 100% healthy, what isn't rushing? a year?

I still don't understand by what standard they are being conservative. They said there are criteria ("criterion", actually, because BC gon BC) that he has to accomplish. That implies there is some sort of objective test that he has to pass because he can play 5 on 5. They are acting like this test is some sort of passive thing that just sort of happens out of mid air, when it actuality their medical staff is the one that chooses when and where he takes this test.

I am wondering whether they tried to make him take these tests, and failed, which implies some sort of setback (Even if its just something like, "go x amount of days without pain" it seems like that sort of thing should have been accomplished in 6 months of normal slow healing). Or if they have just decided from a while back that he wasn't going to take all of these tests until a certain date with the idea that he does not have to be ready until opening night. (For example, "squat your body weight 10 times without pain", and they haven't let him near a squat rack)

If the latter was actually their plan all along, it would sure be nice if they said that, because it would imply that they have some sort of control over the situation.

Well, unless I read incorrectly, this is all the information I have gathered about Embiid from media day. Assuming all were speaking truthfully:

-Embiid claims to be and feel 100%
-Feels great, feels ready for basketball
-Has spent the offseason learning how to land better and not be more reckless diving for loose balls
-Every scan and test has come back perfect
-No setbacks
-No additional procedures
-No additional swelling

If that doesn't check every box on some list of protocols before letting him play, what else is left? Are they gonna throw him out of the rafters like a test dummy to see if he can handle the fall like they do at crime scenes? I mean c'mon here already, Sixers.

Maybe they want to improve his cardiovascular fitness or have him drop some weight before 5 on 5? there are various factors that the medical team could have him focusing on in order to increase likelihood of a healthy career. This might mean strengthening his lower body, improving his balance/landing, etc. It's not as simple as you guys think, especially when this guy has HOF potential.. you need to give him the best chance at being healthy and I believe they are trying to get it right.

[Sixerscan]

I still don't understand by what standard they are being conservative. They said there are criteria ("criterion", actually, because BC gon BC) that he has to accomplish. That implies there is some sort of objective test that he has to pass because he can play 5 on 5. They are acting like this test is some sort of passive thing that just sort of happens out of mid air, when it actuality their medical staff is the one that chooses when and where he takes this test.

I am wondering whether they tried to make him take these tests, and failed, which implies some sort of setback (Even if its just something like, "go x amount of days without pain" it seems like that sort of thing should have been accomplished in 6 months of normal slow healing). Or if they have just decided from a while back that he wasn't going to take all of these tests until a certain date with the idea that he does not have to be ready until opening night. (For example, "squat your body weight 10 times without pain", and they haven't let him near a squat rack)

If the latter was actually their plan all along, it would sure be nice if they said that, because it would imply that they have some sort of control over the situation.

Well, unless I read incorrectly, this is all the information I have gathered about Embiid from media day. Assuming all were speaking truthfully:

-Embiid claims to be and feel 100%
-Feels great, feels ready for basketball
-Has spent the offseason learning how to land better and not be more reckless diving for loose balls
-Every scan and test has come back perfect
-No setbacks
-No additional procedures
-No additional swelling

If that doesn't check every box on some list of protocols before letting him play, what else is left? Are they gonna throw him out of the rafters like a test dummy to see if he can handle the fall like they do at crime scenes? I mean c'mon here already, Sixers.

Maybe they want to improve his cardiovascular fitness or have him drop some weight before 5 on 5? there are various factors that the medical team could have him focusing on in order to increase likelihood of a healthy career. This might mean strengthening his lower body, improving his balance/landing, etc. It's not as simple as you guys think, especially when this guy has HOF potential.. you need to give him the best chance at being healthy and I believe they are trying to get it right.

Again, people seem to be conflating being upset with the Sixers for not rushing Embiid back with being upset with the Sixers for misleading people about the injury situation. I am fine with them being as conservative with Embiid as they need to be. Not ok with them pissing on my leg and telling me it's raining.

I am not saying it's simple. I am asking if this was the plan all along for him to reach these goals by the first game, and they never planned on him being ready for camp. Or if they planned on him being ready for camp but he suffered a setback so now they are trying to get him ready by opening night.

Their current position, that he didn't suffer a setback but we didn't know he wouldn't be ready for camp until 24 hours before, makes no freaking sense. Assuming he didn't suffer a setback, I guarantee they knew 2 weeks ago that he wouldn't be ready for 5 on 5 for training camp, if not two months ago.

[LongLiveHinkie]

I generally agree. All this aggravation could be prevented if they just came out and said "Embiid will not play 5 on 5 yet because..." and then tell us why. Because he's out of shape. Because he still feels some soreness. Because we want to limit the general wear and tear on his body, so we'll be practicing him less than the other players. Whatever. Just tell us what the reason is, not sure why this is some Area 51 secret here. It's not like they're revealing some last second game plan that you want to withhold from your opponent.

Clear answers would create less confusion.

[Ericb5]

If 6 months is rushing a guy who is 100% healthy, what isn't rushing? a year?

I still don't understand by what standard they are being conservative. They said there are criteria ("criterion", actually, because BC gon BC) that he has to accomplish. That implies there is some sort of objective test that he has to pass because he can play 5 on 5. They are acting like this test is some sort of passive thing that just sort of happens out of mid air, when it actuality their medical staff is the one that chooses when and where he takes this test.

I am wondering whether they tried to make him take these tests, and failed, which implies some sort of setback (Even if its just something like, "go x amount of days without pain" it seems like that sort of thing should have been accomplished in 6 months of normal slow healing). Or if they have just decided from a while back that he wasn't going to take all of these tests until a certain date with the idea that he does not have to be ready until opening night. (For example, "squat your body weight 10 times without pain", and they haven't let him near a squat rack)

If the latter was actually their plan all along, it would sure be nice if they said that, because it would imply that they have some sort of control over the situation.

Well, unless I read incorrectly, this is all the information I have gathered about Embiid from media day. Assuming all were speaking truthfully:

-Embiid claims to be and feel 100%
-Feels great, feels ready for basketball
-Has spent the offseason learning how to land better and not be more reckless diving for loose balls
-Every scan and test has come back perfect
-No setbacks
-No additional procedures
-No additional swelling

If that doesn't check every box on some list of protocols before letting him play, what else is left? Are they gonna throw him out of the rafters like a test dummy to see if he can handle the fall like they do at crime scenes? I mean c'mon here already, Sixers.

Absolutely. I could imagine that all of what you said is true, but they want him to practice with the team, up his endurance, and get him ready for the season still.

I’m fine with that. If that is the case then, by the start of the regular season, he should at least be back to 24-28 minutes of nba basketball, and then steady improvement from there.


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[Simmons25]

Exactly. There is no legitimate reason to be offering Embiid anywhere near the max right NOW. We hold all the cards.

* Embiid signs on at a discount now for $70 mill over 3 years (Which I think he would do otherwise he is stupid)
* Embiid doesn't sign and gambles that entire $70 mill just to make $90 mill instead at the end of the year.. and if injured walk away with almost $0 (Which I don't think he will be stupid enough to do)
* Embiid doesn't sign and has a great year and plays most games and I'd be happy to match any deal and pay him the max.

Either way it goes... we are in no position to be offering him anything but a heavily discounted deal at this moment.

Here's the thing. His camp would not cooperate with our precautionary stance if we don't offer him the max. Thats how I see it.

Embiid will ask for the max. His camp would make it know their disappointment if we dont give him an offer while we continue to put him on restriction. Other teams will also offer Embiid the max with the consideration that they are exchanging just mere cap space for him. I'm pretty sure teams would rather have a 50-60 game Embiid than 2 Amir Johnsons.

The way I see it. Accept reality. Give Embiid what he wants. Let him know that big money means big responsibility like being more mature with how he treat his health. While on our end, we just prepare ourselves with a 50-60 games per year Embiid with a constant supply of bigs which is pretty easy to do nowadays.

Exactly. You give him what he wants, period. You cannot treat this Embiid situation with rational normal approach. You keep him happy under any circumstance. If you get burnt, oh well. He's "that" guy.

If he hadn't played 30 games in 3 years I would say go for it... give him absolutely the max and more... but his health must be taken into account.

Besides did you hear Embiid when asked about whether his contract was the reason he was not playing... he basically laughed at it but at the same time said that he basically has no bargaining power anyway in this contract as a RFA. He is not stupid... he knows the 76ers are going to want a discount because of his injury history.. just like the Warriors did with Steph Curry. If they didn't the deal would have been signed sealed and delivered weeks ago.

[76ciology]

Here's the thing. His camp would not cooperate with our precautionary stance if we don't offer him the max. Thats how I see it.

Embiid will ask for the max. His camp would make it know their disappointment if we dont give him an offer while we continue to put him on restriction. Other teams will also offer Embiid the max with the consideration that they are exchanging just mere cap space for him. I'm pretty sure teams would rather have a 50-60 game Embiid than 2 Amir Johnsons.

The way I see it. Accept reality. Give Embiid what he wants. Let him know that big money means big responsibility like being more mature with how he treat his health. While on our end, we just prepare ourselves with a 50-60 games per year Embiid with a constant supply of bigs which is pretty easy to do nowadays.

Exactly. You give him what he wants, period. You cannot treat this Embiid situation with rational normal approach. You keep him happy under any circumstance. If you get burnt, oh well. He's "that" guy.

If he hadn't played 30 games in 3 years I would say go for it... give him absolutely the max and more... but his health must be taken into account.

Besides did you hear Embiid when asked about whether his contract was the reason he was not playing... he basically laughed at it but at the same time said that he basically has no bargaining power anyway in this contract as a RFA. He is not stupid... he knows the 76ers are going to want a discount because of his injury history.. just like the Warriors did with Steph Curry. If they didn't the deal would have been signed sealed and delivered weeks ago.

Yeah, thats why nothing gets done yet. Because Sixers is asking for discount but both parties think its very likely Biid asks for max. Biid has leverage, he can not follow the restrictions or voice out regarding this which I doubt he will say during media day

[76ciology]

FWIW, im now buying into the notion that Biid’s issue is MORE with his contract than with his health but both are present issues.

[Simmons25]

Exactly. You give him what he wants, period. You cannot treat this Embiid situation with rational normal approach. You keep him happy under any circumstance. If you get burnt, oh well. He's "that" guy.

If he hadn't played 30 games in 3 years I would say go for it... give him absolutely the max and more... but his health must be taken into account.

Besides did you hear Embiid when asked about whether his contract was the reason he was not playing... he basically laughed at it but at the same time said that he basically has no bargaining power anyway in this contract as a RFA. He is not stupid... he knows the 76ers are going to want a discount because of his injury history.. just like the Warriors did with Steph Curry. If they didn't the deal would have been signed sealed and delivered weeks ago.

Yeah, thats why nothing gets done yet. Because Sixers is asking for discount but both parties think its very likely Biid asks for max. Biid has leverage, he can not follow the restrictions or voice out regarding this which I doubt he will say during media day

Of course Biid asks for the max... I mean Nerlens Noel demanded the max and now he is being dropped back to the bench by the Mavs (Where he belonged all along)

As I said before... Embiid probably has an offer of $20 to $25 mill a year on the table if he signs now. Does he really want to risk $75 to $100 million dollars and being set up for life... or does he want to go into this season without another contract with the hope he doesn't get another career ending foot injury before he signs that deal.

All that risk just so he can get the max and make an extra $5 mill a year at the end of this year? Financial stupidity on his part if he did... and his agent should be sacked if he gives him that advice.

[Foshan]

FWIW, im now buying into the notion that Biid’s issue is MORE with his contract than with his health but both are present issues.

I can't see how it would be so hard to agree on some health conditions in the contract. Like if he plays more than 60 whatever games, he gets his full max salary. If he doesn't he drops down to the 20 whatever mil a year. that can't be that bad a deal for him, can it?

[76ciology]

FWIW, im now buying into the notion that Biid’s issue is MORE with his contract than with his health but both are present issues.

I can't see how it would be so hard to agree on some health conditions in the contract. Like if he plays more than 60 whatever games, he gets his full max salary. If he doesn't he drops down to the 20 whatever mil a year. that can't be that bad a deal for him, can it?

Its a bad deal for both. For him, he risks not getting paid the max. I'm 100% sure he's a legit max player if he's a FA. And he knows it.

For us, he'll risk playing games that aren't advisable. He would play and not tell the team that he isn't feeling good or something.

Pay him but tell him that there are responsibilities that comes along with it like taking care of his health like diet and being honest when he's not ready. Help one another to make each other happy.

[kanga]

God, I can't wait for the "he only played 30 games in three years" narrative to end.

Ready for the "95 games in four years" era!

[76ciology]

God, I can't wait for the "he only played 30 games in three years" narrative to end.

Ready for the "95 games in four years" era!

Who knows.. Maybe the play is for him to play each season incrementally like 30-60-90(including playoffs)

[Ericb5]

FWIW, im now buying into the notion that Biid’s issue is MORE with his contract than with his health but both are present issues.

I can't see how it would be so hard to agree on some health conditions in the contract. Like if he plays more than 60 whatever games, he gets his full max salary. If he doesn't he drops down to the 20 whatever mil a year. that can't be that bad a deal for him, can it?

You can’t put games played into an incentive when the team sits him on some days.

The only way to put health in the contract that I can think of would be to have an out for the Sixers if he breaks his navicular again, or something like that.

I would just offer him a contract today of 90% of the max, and if he doesn’t take it then go into RFA next year and max him if he is healthy.


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[James40]

FWIW, im now buying into the notion that Biid’s issue is MORE with his contract than with his health but both are present issues.

I can't see how it would be so hard to agree on some health conditions in the contract. Like if he plays more than 60 whatever games, he gets his full max salary. If he doesn't he drops down to the 20 whatever mil a year. that can't be that bad a deal for him, can it?

You can’t put games played into an incentive when the team sits him on some days.

The only way to put health in the contract that I can think of would be to have an out for the Sixers if he breaks his navicular again, or something like that.

I would just offer him a contract today of 90% of the max, and if he doesn’t take it then go into RFA next year and max him if he is healthy.


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Are "outs" like that even allowed in NBA contracts? I know there are outs for doing something like sky diving, or riding dirt bikes, whatever, but injury wise I don't remember seeing a contract out for injuries.

If he's unwilling to do something like Curry did then they should wait to see how many games he plays this year.

On Embiid's side though maybe the Sixers only plan on him playing 50-55 games max anyway. How do you fairly complete a contract then?

He's such a great player when he's on the court that unless the Sixers really low ball him, is anyone really going to be wrong in terms of what he gets?

[TankCommander17]

Guys for fantasy basketball purposes when do you expect Embiid to play and for how many games? Last I heard he is still rehabbing which is sorta worrisome. But I think he might be a fantasy steal.

[TankCommander17]

FWIW, im now buying into the notion that Biid’s issue is MORE with his contract than with his health but both are present issues.

I can't see how it would be so hard to agree on some health conditions in the contract. Like if he plays more than 60 whatever games, he gets his full max salary. If he doesn't he drops down to the 20 whatever mil a year. that can't be that bad a deal for him, can it?

He won't sign that type of deal. When we signed Amare way back when we knew he might not play in year 4 and 5 of his contract. Everyone including him knew this and yet he still demanding a max contract. Players know that they have one shot at a huge payday they don't agree to restrictions on that.

[Sixerscan]

FWIW, im now buying into the notion that Biid’s issue is MORE with his contract than with his health but both are present issues.

I can't see how it would be so hard to agree on some health conditions in the contract. Like if he plays more than 60 whatever games, he gets his full max salary. If he doesn't he drops down to the 20 whatever mil a year. that can't be that bad a deal for him, can it?

He won't sign that type of deal. When we signed Amare way back when we knew he might not play in year 4 and 5 of his contract. Everyone including him knew this and yet he still demanding a max contract. Players know that they have one shot at a huge payday they don't agree to restrictions on that.

I don't think the Knicks should be used as an example of how contracts work.

[bball4life]

If they wanted to include incentives in the contract some incentives that aren't directly tied to health but would only be accomplished by playing enough to earn them could be: All Star Game appearance, 1st or 2nd All NBA team. So say a contract that starts at 90% of the max, and if he makes an all star game increases by 5% and all nba another 5%. Personally, I think your're matching an RFA offer anyways and I'd rather foster goodwill now and sign whatever deal it takes to get it done than wait and get some goofy poison pill type max deal you need to match.