Where is Jahlil Okafor?

[Sixerscan]

Maybe if we could go more than 1 page without someone saying Okafor is going to average 25 points per game or some other aggressive projection there would be less "hate" on him.

If people still compared Stauskas to klay Thompson he would get "hated" a lot too.

His track record is his track record. Let him earn a spot in the rotation in camp and preseason. Glad he is actually playing some 5 on 5 now.

[spikeslovechild]

Even though I started this thread I haven't really stayed up to date with the hoopla surrounding big Jah. Someone inform me on why the dude has been hated on so hard in this city. He put some fantastic numbers as a rookie. Then dealt with injuries all season last year. Of course I know about his defensive and sometimes rebounding issues. However, he's a 3rd year player who is entering camp in seemingly the best shape of his life. He hasn't raised a lip to his troubles which I really respect. Let's give the guy a shot.

He quit last year we all saw the games. You can blame the results last year partially due to injuries not the lack of effort.

[Mik317]

I wouldn;t say he quit at all. That play that got blown up was just poor awareness more than anything. Jah has a ton of flaws but I'm not going to call the guy a quitter.

[TTP]

Even though I started this thread I haven't really stayed up to date with the hoopla surrounding big Jah. Someone inform me on why the dude has been hated on so hard in this city. He put some fantastic numbers as a rookie. Then dealt with injuries all season last year. Of course I know about his defensive and sometimes rebounding issues. However, he's a 3rd year player who is entering camp in seemingly the best shape of his life. He hasn't raised a lip to his troubles which I really respect. Let's give the guy a shot.

You're overlooking the offensive issues too because you're fooled by the counting stats. Even in his rookie year, he completely cratered the offense when he was on the floor.

The Sixers offensive points per 100 possessions when Jah was on the floor:

2015-16: 94.6
2016-17: 98.0

The Sixers offensive points per 100 possessions when Jah was off the floor:

2015-16: 102.1
2016-17: 105.5

The NBA team medians in those years were ~106.7 and ~109.1. Jah was the difference in our offense going from the bottom of the league to historically putrid.

Every time I see Jah's "good rookie season" pre-injury referenced, I just shake my head in disbelief.

[Andrew McCeltic]

How much can be attributed to rotations, who did he play the most minutes with? There could be some hidden variable, like that he played a lot with poor three point shooters, so kick outs from the post led to misses, or the offense slowed because it featured a low post scorer playing with bad guards who took an extra five seconds to feed him the ball in poor position.

[Sixerscan]

How much can be attributed to rotations, who did he play the most minutes with? There could be some hidden variable, like that he played a lot with poor three point shooters, so kick outs from the post led to misses, or the offense slowed because it featured a low post scorer playing with bad guards who took an extra five seconds to feed him the ball in poor position.

His most common teammates were the guys that played the most minutes on the team (Covington, Stauskas, Dario, McConnell). He had chances to start and chances to come off the bench.

Obviously those guys aren't all stars and no one is expecting him to singlehandedly make the team competitive the way Embiid did. But the team did much better even with the other centers on the court (Holmes, Noel, even Long). Somehow it's only when Okafor is on the court that the team fell off a cliff. And the fact that it's happened two years in a row at this point isn't great, only so many excuses can be made... especially when a lot of people watch him play and see someone that can get his points but bogs down the offense in the process...

His first two years he was one of the worst (or at least, most negative) players in the NBA. I think the most (reasonable) positive spin you can put on it is that his rookie year, he was a rookie, last year he was hurt, and both years he was out of shape. Now he's (theoretically) healthy. And vegan. And hopefully willing to adjust his game to fit in better within the system, and has something that approaches defensive awareness. Otherwise I am not really sure how he playing over the other 3 centers on the roster.

[Andrew McCeltic]

How much can be attributed to rotations, who did he play the most minutes with? There could be some hidden variable, like that he played a lot with poor three point shooters, so kick outs from the post led to misses, or the offense slowed because it featured a low post scorer playing with bad guards who took an extra five seconds to feed him the ball in poor position.

His most common teammates were the guys that played the most minutes on the team (Covington, Stauskas, Dario, McConnell). He had chances to start and chances to come off the bench.

Obviously those guys aren't all stars and no one is expecting him to singlehandedly make the team competitive the way Embiid did. But the team did much better even with the other centers on the court (Holmes, Noel, even Long). Somehow it's only when Okafor is on the court that the team fell off a cliff. And the fact that it's happened two years in a row at this point isn't great, only so many excuses can be made...

Yeah, I get that. And I agree his defense needs major work - but about his net offensive impact, I'm a little more cautious. It's possible those teammates are better at running the pick and roll than feeding the post and moving off the ball, or that the offense slowed because it involved giving Okafor the ball and standing around while he got a basket. Or any other number of variables that aren't Jahlil's fault. I haven't looked at the data enough (thanks for the line-up link), and don't know the Sixers' personnel enough to say for sure, but it's one seemingly damning data point I'd take with a few grains of salt.

I hope Boston takes a gamble on him, don't know what we'd give up - I think given his age, and circumstances, he's been scapegoated and underrated out of proportion to his actual talent and potential.

[TTP]

How much can be attributed to rotations, who did he play the most minutes with? There could be some hidden variable, like that he played a lot with poor three point shooters, so kick outs from the post led to misses, or the offense slowed because it featured a low post scorer playing with bad guards who took an extra five seconds to feed him the ball in poor position.

His most common teammates were the guys that played the most minutes on the team (Covington, Stauskas, Dario, McConnell). He had chances to start and chances to come off the bench.

Obviously those guys aren't all stars and no one is expecting him to singlehandedly make the team competitive the way Embiid did. But the team did much better even with the other centers on the court (Holmes, Noel, even Long). Somehow it's only when Okafor is on the court that the team fell off a cliff. And the fact that it's happened two years in a row at this point isn't great, only so many excuses can be made...

Yeah, I get that. And I agree his defense needs major work - but about his net offensive impact, I'm a little more cautious. It's possible those teammates are better at running the pick and roll than feeding the post and moving off the ball, or that the offense slowed because it involved giving Okafor the ball and standing around while he got a basket. Or any other number of variables that aren't Jahlil's fault. I haven't looked at the data enough (thanks for the line-up link), and don't know the Sixers' personnel enough to say for sure, but it's one seemingly damning data point I'd take with a few grains of salt.

I hope Boston takes a gamble on him, don't know what we'd give up - I think given his age, and circumstances, he's been scapegoated and underrated out of proportion to his actual talent and potential.

It's definitely Jahlil's fault that his first instinct after receiving the ball is to palm it away from his body and move it around, rather than looking to make a quick move to the basket, a quick pass to an open teammate, or anything resembling playing within the flow of an offense.

It's also his fault that he doesn't know how to do anything on offense when he doesn't have the ball - he literally just stands in one spot with his hands up waiting for the ball.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Noticing he played a lot of minutes with McConnell, who shot 20 percent from 3 last year. Covington, who shot 39 percent from the field and 33 percent from 3. The league average from 3 last year was 35.8 percent. Stauskas shot one percent point above that.

So if you have bad perimeter shooters and a low-post center, defenders are going to sag off the three-point line and make things harder for the guy with the ball, Okafor's going to get buckets anyway, but because it's less likely that he'll pass out to the perimeter and assist on an open look, the over-supply of two-point baskets, even at a high percentage, is going to be reduced. Poor spacing also means fewer openings for players to cut to the rim and receive a pass - and the offense will bog down generally. Teams will know what's coming, they'll fail to stop Okafor, but they'll live with his high degree of difficulty 2's because they can make up for it on the other end.

And it would make sense for the offense to perform better without him, because even if Noel or Holmes can't score in the post or stretch the floor, they're much much better as roll men, and the pick and roll creates openings for the ballhandlers.

So Okafor needs to get better at the pick and roll, and hopefully develop an outside shot - but again, that's never been his primary skill-set, and the Sixers knew that when they drafted him.

So there's a little bit of a square peg/round hole situation - he needs to improve significantly, he's not a good match for "the modern NBA" as is, and he needs to sand away some of his rough edges - but he's also in a horrible situation for his talent, development, ability, and morale.

You guys like Marcus Morris?

[Baller1234a]

Noticing he played a lot of minutes with McConnell, who shot 20 percent from 3 last year. Covington, who shot 39 percent from the field and 33 percent from 3. The league average from 3 last year was 35.8 percent. Stauskas shot one percent point above that.

So if you have bad perimeter shooters and a low-post center, defenders are going to sag off the three-point line and make things harder for the guy with the ball, Okafor's going to get buckets anyway, but because it's less likely that he'll pass out to the perimeter and assist on an open look, the over-supply of two-point baskets, even at a high percentage, is going to be reduced. Poor spacing also means fewer openings for players to cut to the rim and receive a pass - and the offense will bog down generally. Teams will know what's coming, they'll fail to stop Okafor, but they'll live with his high degree of difficulty 2's because they can make up for it on the other end.

And it would make sense for the offense to perform better without him, because even if Noel or Holmes can't score in the post or stretch the floor, they're much much better as roll men, and the pick and roll creates openings for the ballhandlers.

So Okafor needs to get better at the pick and roll, and hopefully develop an outside shot - but again, that's never been his primary skill-set, and the Sixers knew that when they drafted him.

So there's a little bit of a square peg/round hole situation - he needs to improve significantly, he's not a good match for "the modern NBA" as is, and he needs to sand away some of his rough edges - but he's also in a horrible situation for his talent, development, ability, and morale.

You guys like Marcus Morris?

We better be getting some value back because I see ok4 as a negative value because we would have to pick up his option

[Andrew McCeltic]

His most common teammates were the guys that played the most minutes on the team (Covington, Stauskas, Dario, McConnell). He had chances to start and chances to come off the bench.

Obviously those guys aren't all stars and no one is expecting him to singlehandedly make the team competitive the way Embiid did. But the team did much better even with the other centers on the court (Holmes, Noel, even Long). Somehow it's only when Okafor is on the court that the team fell off a cliff. And the fact that it's happened two years in a row at this point isn't great, only so many excuses can be made...

Yeah, I get that. And I agree his defense needs major work - but about his net offensive impact, I'm a little more cautious. It's possible those teammates are better at running the pick and roll than feeding the post and moving off the ball, or that the offense slowed because it involved giving Okafor the ball and standing around while he got a basket. Or any other number of variables that aren't Jahlil's fault. I haven't looked at the data enough (thanks for the line-up link), and don't know the Sixers' personnel enough to say for sure, but it's one seemingly damning data point I'd take with a few grains of salt.

I hope Boston takes a gamble on him, don't know what we'd give up - I think given his age, and circumstances, he's been scapegoated and underrated out of proportion to his actual talent and potential.

It's definitely Jahlil's fault that his first instinct after receiving the ball is to palm it away from his body and move it around, rather than looking to make a quick move to the basket, a quick pass to an open teammate, or anything resembling playing within the flow of an offense.

It's also his fault that he doesn't know how to do anything on offense when he doesn't have the ball - he literally just stands in one spot with his hands up waiting for the ball.

Right, but he's young - that's coachable. Jayson Tatum over-dribbled in summer league this year, and Boston fans remember Doc's multi-year tug of war with Paul Pierce getting him to make a quick move instead of taking too long to face up.

This stuff is all coachable, and in a different setting, these would been seen as flaws he needed to work on, things that could be improved on over time. But because he was thrown into the deep end, and blamed for not being an Embiid-level instant-impact superstar, instead of getting limited opportunities and having flaws, he's been over-exposed.

[TTP]

Yeah, I get that. And I agree his defense needs major work - but about his net offensive impact, I'm a little more cautious. It's possible those teammates are better at running the pick and roll than feeding the post and moving off the ball, or that the offense slowed because it involved giving Okafor the ball and standing around while he got a basket. Or any other number of variables that aren't Jahlil's fault. I haven't looked at the data enough (thanks for the line-up link), and don't know the Sixers' personnel enough to say for sure, but it's one seemingly damning data point I'd take with a few grains of salt.

I hope Boston takes a gamble on him, don't know what we'd give up - I think given his age, and circumstances, he's been scapegoated and underrated out of proportion to his actual talent and potential.

It's definitely Jahlil's fault that his first instinct after receiving the ball is to palm it away from his body and move it around, rather than looking to make a quick move to the basket, a quick pass to an open teammate, or anything resembling playing within the flow of an offense.

It's also his fault that he doesn't know how to do anything on offense when he doesn't have the ball - he literally just stands in one spot with his hands up waiting for the ball.

Right, but he's young - that's coachable. Jayson Tatum over-dribbled in summer league this year, and Boston fans remember Doc's multi-year tug of war with Paul Pierce getting him to make a quick move instead of taking too long to face up.

This stuff is all coachable, and in a different setting, these would been seen as flaws he needed to work on, things that could be improved on over time. But because he was thrown into the deep end, and blamed for not being an Embiid-level instant-impact superstar, instead of getting limited opportunities and having flaws, he's been over-exposed.

Absolutely not.

If Okafor did a lot of things decently well but had a few big weaknesses, I might agree that he could improve those weaknesses and eventually be a serviceable player. He's being blamed because he was terrible at just about everything that's required of him to be a useful player.

These things that you're arguing are coachable are things that are supposed to be his strengths. We haven't even addressed his weaknesses. When a player has so many weaknesses, it's tough to imagine that you're going to be able to just coach them all away.

[Sixerscan]

You guys like Marcus Morris?

Didn't Ainge basically choose to trade Bradley for Morris over Okafor? Would be curious to see him double back now (And annoying because I would have loved to have Bradley here)

[Andrew McCeltic]

You guys like Marcus Morris?

Didn't Ainge basically choose to trade Bradley for Morris over Okafor? Would be curious to see him double back now (And annoying because I would have loved to have Bradley here)

I didn’t know Bradley for Okafor was on the table. The rumor we heard was that BC tried to give us Okafor in an Amir sign and trade. And that we turned it down, but partly because we had to keep a max slot for Hayward.

[Andrew McCeltic]

But because he was thrown into the deep end, and blamed for not being an Embiid-level instant-impact superstar, instead of getting limited opportunities and having flaws, he's been over-exposed.

Absolutely not.

If Okafor did a lot of things decently well but had a few big weaknesses, I might agree that he could improve those weaknesses and eventually be a serviceable player. He's being blamed because he was terrible at just about everything that's required of him to be a useful player.

These things that you're arguing are coachable are things that are supposed to be his strengths. We haven't even addressed his weaknesses. When a player has so many weaknesses, it's tough to imagine that you're going to be able to just coach them all away.

That’s the point, though, he was overhyped and oversold in the first place. And he’s a great scorer, the “coachable” things are very common developmental flaws in young players. Don’t let the ball stick, make quick reads, etc.

He’s great at one thing, mediocre or bad at everything else. Given his potential long-term upside, his age, and the way he’s been coached and developed, I’d do everything in my power to try to make him good or mediocre at everything else before writing him off. Happy to have Boston try.

He’s getting in shape, which shows a good work ethic. Defensive awareness, like decent shooting, is usually something you can reliably get with a good work ethic. To improve on the boards is less likely, but adding strength is one way to help.

[rzzzzz]

Happy to have Boston try.

i happier to keep him around for a little more insurance, and then if we do let him go for a bag of beans, i'd rather give him either to Pops, who would have the best chance figuring him, or Chicago to make his own Pop happy. because the one thing he does real well could be real good for Boston, especially in the playoffs, i don't want him anywhere near there.

[TTP]

Happy to have Boston try.

i happier to keep him around for a little more insurance, and then if we do let him go for a bag of beans, i'd rather give him either to Pops, who would have the best chance figuring him, or Chicago to make his own Pop happy. because the one thing he does real well could be real good for Boston, especially in the playoffs, i don't want him anywhere near there.

He's unplayable vs good teams in the playoffs, just like Kanter is. He'd just get PnR'd to death.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Happy to have Boston try.

i happier to keep him around for a little more insurance, and then if we do let him go for a bag of beans, i'd rather give him either to Pops, who would have the best chance figuring him, or Chicago to make his own Pop happy. because the one thing he does real well could be real good for Boston, especially in the playoffs, i don't want him anywhere near there.

Embiid is much much better than Jahlil and always will be. But Okafor’s career is weird, and the market for him is weird - you’re stuck hoping he shows enough progress this preseason that teams pick up the phone.

Boston, Chicago and San Antonio are my three ideal destinations for him, on a human level, for his career. Maybe LA. Think the Bulls get him, and that because they’re rebuilding, he puts up 20+ a night but doesn’t improve at anything.

[76ciology]

Happy to have Boston try.

i happier to keep him around for a little more insurance, and then if we do let him go for a bag of beans, i'd rather give him either to Pops, who would have the best chance figuring him, or Chicago to make his own Pop happy. because the one thing he does real well could be real good for Boston, especially in the playoffs, i don't want him anywhere near there.

Embiid is much much better than Jahlil and always will be. But Okafor’s career is weird, and the market for him is weird - you’re stuck hoping he shows enough progress this preseason that teams pick up the phone.

Boston, Chicago and San Antonio are my three ideal destinations for him, on a human level, for his career. Maybe LA. Think the Bulls get him, and that because they’re rebuilding, he puts up 20+ a night but doesn’t improve at anything.

He clogs the paint, not a positive floor spacer and slows down ball movement. If you look at the top guys in ORPM, guys like Jokic, Towns, Gasol and Lopez plays the opposite of what I described Jah in my first statement.

Jah is a skilled offensive player but his mentality on offense needs radical change. He needs to learn how to play offense in the context of the team than individual scoring. If you ask me, he needs to model his game like Diaw, Jokic or Marc Gasol, more like a PG type center. While for Embiid, since he is more athletic, he needs to play like a wing. Play in the flow of the offense then use that ISO/POST as last option or only use that to punish teams whenever they opt to switch on screens. And the ISO/POST skillset I believe should see some increase in value going forward with most teams switching screens.

Nevertheless, I do believe he is not a lost cause because he is a highly skilled center with decent basketball IQ. But I just don't think Sixers is a team that has the time to wait for his development.

Defensively, the biggest issue for him IMO is his slow reads on defense (which should improve with more experience and better mobility; could be an injury and endurance issue) and lack of aggressiveness in grabbing rebounds. If you ask me, the past 2-3 seasons, the Sixers defensive scheme is built around a defensive anchor C unlike top teams like Warriors, Cavs or Spurs. That said, his limitations on D was magnified but it certainly doesn't justify his limitations.

[Chris76]

Happy to have Boston try.

i happier to keep him around for a little more insurance, and then if we do let him go for a bag of beans, i'd rather give him either to Pops, who would have the best chance figuring him, or Chicago to make his own Pop happy. because the one thing he does real well could be real good for Boston, especially in the playoffs, i don't want him anywhere near there.

He's unplayable vs good teams in the playoffs, just like Kanter is. He'd just get PnR'd to death.

He wasn't taught how to defend a NBA PnR. He could improve with coaching and experience.
Team defense should be his #1 priority.

Offensively, he should be a great finisher with better guards to feed him.
Simmons and Fultz could use a big man that can finish strong, his elite skill.

In the playoffs, Embiid and Okafor should get other teams in foul trouble.
No way, Kevin Love, Draymond, Horford, Adams, and other centers can defend their size, a big advantage.