"A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ The Equality & Other Issues Thread

[claycarver]

This was from an interview from Colin Kaepernick back when it all started:
"To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000691077/article/colin-kaepernick-explains-why-he-sat-during-national-anthem

Is this still what the protests are about? The protests are like a thing all their own now, but they have a reason behind them. It looks like Colin was protesting the police killings...I'm thinking it was about the unjustified killing of unarmed black people?

I really don't know at this point. Is this still what the protests are addressing or is it more about Trump now that he inserted himself in it?

[Andrew McCeltic]

This was from an interview from Colin Kaepernick back when it all started:
"To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000691077/article/colin-kaepernick-explains-why-he-sat-during-national-anthem

Is this still what the protests are about? The protests are like a thing all their own now, but they have a reason behind them. It looks like Colin was protesting the police killings...I'm thinking it was about the unjustified killing of unarmed black people?

I really don't know at this point. Is this still what the protests are addressing or is it more about Trump now that he inserted himself in it?

All politicians have moments of demagoguery, but this is why critics say Trump is a demagogue - he confuses issues by pushing buttons and activating strong emotions that muddy the waters. Police brutality seems like a legitimate problem, and even the misperception of it would be a problem. That was the protest.

By snarling and inserting insults and moral postures, Trump has created a swirling and emotional conversation about:

Overpaid athletes
Disrespect for the flag
The first amendment
Disrespect for veterans
Appropriate patriotism
Workplace politics
Appropriate protest
Racial bias

[Taget]

I have a few different views on this which probably puts me somewhere between most people here.

Spoiler:

I'm not sure how to navigate this thread and whether I am crossing any lines as far as being too political. If I have PLEASE just delete this message.

1) I can't say I like the idea of showing disrespect for the country. America is not perfect. Never has, never will be. But more than a lot of other countries it contains both avenues and aspirations to improve. It almost seems a dodge just to simply condemn. Because it is nearly as empty as to mindlessly praise. The real question is always how you can change and improve something.

2) That said I can see value in making a one time protest for publicity to try to get attention to an issue. It just becomes a distraction when it is done in an ongoing basis. I had no trouble with Kaepernick kneeling for one game. When he started doing it for every game it became tiresome. The attention stopped being on what Kaepernick was protesting but on the right to kneel. And Kaepernick was trying to promote ideas that went beyond how horizontal his body was during the national anthem. Like occupy Wall Street. They got a lot of publicity occupying a park. Then for months they never left. So instead of whatever ideas propelled them the issue became that stupid little park.

3) There was no epidemic of people protesting during the national anthem. Donald Trump created the entire issue with his intentionally inflammatory attacks meant to distract from all the other problems he has been having. People are now kneeling to respond to his attacks and his over the top rhetoric. It only tangentially has much to do with Black Lives Matter or anything else. Those doing it are not even saying very much about the National Anthem or much else beyond responding to Trump and perhaps standing up for "free speech." And I must add one must qualify that statement since nobody is talking about the government restricting speech. Just whether owners of private property should "restrict" what is done on their own property.

4) It also shows how stupid a lot of the media is and in particular many Democrats are. They are letting Trump bait them into having a different conversation than they ought to be having. Instead of talking about what Trump is doing and what Trump has done they are instead having a "cultural" conversation about "feelings." One side can talk about how they "feel" and the other can respond. A conversation framed in a way that only works in Trump's favor. In this case on the "important" issue of whether someone stands or kneels during the introduction to a game of concussion ball.

I don't blame the athletes. They feel attacked and want the right to make any political statement they wish available to him. As for the rest of us... North Korea, Russia, Puerto Rico and THIS is what gets people hot and bothered?

[truth18]

I have a few different views on this which probably puts me somewhere between most people here.

Spoiler:

I'm not sure how to navigate this thread and whether I am crossing any lines as far as being too political. If I have PLEASE just delete this message.

1) I can't say I like the idea of showing disrespect for the country. America is not perfect.

4) It also shows how stupid a lot of the media is and in particular many Democrats are. They are letting Trump bait them into having a different conversation than they ought to be having. Instead of talking about what Trump is doing and what Trump has done they are instead having a "cultural" conversation about "feelings." One side can talk about how they "feel" and the other can respond. A conversation framed in a way that only works in Trump's favor. In this case on the "important" issue of whether someone stands or kneels during the introduction to a game of concussion ball.

1. Kneeling was never intended to show disrespect against America. Kaepernick's green beret team mate, Nate Boyer, suggested it as a good middle ground of respect and protest. Before that, Kaepernick was sitting on the bench during the anthem. A quote from Boyer:

"Soldiers take a knee in front of a fallen brother's grave, you know, to show respect. When we're on a patrol, you know, and we go into a security halt, we take a knee, and we pull security."

Boyer never knelt himself but stood with his arm on Kaep's shoulder to show support. They are friends.

4. It shows how stupid and easily manipulated everyone is. There are many republicans burning jerseys and season tickets over this, just Google it.

All your points on Trump are correct. He has turned a protest about police funding and training reform into something entirely different that is largely about him. It sucks.

[London2Boston]

Americans and the uber patriotism always makes me laugh abit as an outsider. I mean, half of us in England don't even like our national anthem. The only time I ever even acknowledge or sing it is when I'm drunk as **** before an International Football Match.

Hell, a leader of one of our main political parties openly doesn't even sing it and he's currently the most popular politician in the popularity polls

It's not even that we are super liberal or anything as we are far from it, but I suppose we aren't as in your face patriotic for this to have become such a big story here.

[truth18]

Americans and the uber patriotism always makes me laugh abit as an outsider. I mean, half of us in England don't even like our national anthem. The only time I ever even acknowledge or sing it is when I'm drunk as **** before an International Football Match.

Hell, a leader of one of our main political parties openly doesn't even sing it and he's currently the most popular politician in the popularity polls

It's not even that we are super liberal or anything as we are far from it, but I suppose we aren't as in your face patriotic for this to have become such a big story here.

It's a **** song as well honestly. America the Beautiful, on the other hand, is a **** banger.

[165bows]

I have a few different views on this which probably puts me somewhere between most people here.

Spoiler:

I'm not sure how to navigate this thread and whether I am crossing any lines as far as being too political. If I have PLEASE just delete this message.

1) I can't say I like the idea of showing disrespect for the country. America is not perfect.

4) It also shows how stupid a lot of the media is and in particular many Democrats are. They are letting Trump bait them into having a different conversation than they ought to be having. Instead of talking about what Trump is doing and what Trump has done they are instead having a "cultural" conversation about "feelings." One side can talk about how they "feel" and the other can respond. A conversation framed in a way that only works in Trump's favor. In this case on the "important" issue of whether someone stands or kneels during the introduction to a game of concussion ball.

1. Kneeling was never intended to show disrespect against America. Kaepernick's green beret team mate, Nate Boyer, suggested it as a good middle ground of respect and protest. Before that, Kaepernick was sitting on the bench during the anthem. A quote from Boyer:

"Soldiers take a knee in front of a fallen brother's grave, you know, to show respect. When we're on a patrol, you know, and we go into a security halt, we take a knee, and we pull security."

Boyer never knelt himself but stood with his arm on Kaep's shoulder to show support. They are friends.

4. It shows how stupid and easily manipulated everyone is. There are many republicans burning jerseys and season tickets over this, just Google it.

All your points on Trump are correct. He has turned a protest about police funding and training reform into something entirely different that is largely about him. It sucks.

Why do you feel people being upset with the protest equates to being manipulated?

[truth18]

I have a few different views on this which probably puts me somewhere between most people here.

Spoiler:

I'm not sure how to navigate this thread and whether I am crossing any lines as far as being too political. If I have PLEASE just delete this message.

1) I can't say I like the idea of showing disrespect for the country. America is not perfect.

4) It also shows how stupid a lot of the media is and in particular many Democrats are. They are letting Trump bait them into having a different conversation than they ought to be having. Instead of talking about what Trump is doing and what Trump has done they are instead having a "cultural" conversation about "feelings." One side can talk about how they "feel" and the other can respond. A conversation framed in a way that only works in Trump's favor. In this case on the "important" issue of whether someone stands or kneels during the introduction to a game of concussion ball.

1. Kneeling was never intended to show disrespect against America. Kaepernick's green beret team mate, Nate Boyer, suggested it as a good middle ground of respect and protest. Before that, Kaepernick was sitting on the bench during the anthem. A quote from Boyer:

"Soldiers take a knee in front of a fallen brother's grave, you know, to show respect. When we're on a patrol, you know, and we go into a security halt, we take a knee, and we pull security."

Boyer never knelt himself but stood with his arm on Kaep's shoulder to show support. They are friends.

4. It shows how stupid and easily manipulated everyone is. There are many republicans burning jerseys and season tickets over this, just Google it.

All your points on Trump are correct. He has turned a protest about police funding and training reform into something entirely different that is largely about him. It sucks.

Why do you feel people being upset with the protest equates to being manipulated?

I don't, in any sort of overarching sense . I was responding directly to what Taget said about Trump. All sides here are being manipulated it's not "particularly democrats".

If you're referring to the jersey burning comment, I've considered that dumb behavior for some time entirely outside of this issue. Its their property but I'm going to call a spade a spade: it's **** stupid.

I completely understand being uncomfortable with the protest. It only gets muddy when people say they shouldn't be able to.

No one here is saying that as far as I understand.

[Andrew McCeltic]

I have a few different views on this which probably puts me somewhere between most people here.

Spoiler:

I'm not sure how to navigate this thread and whether I am crossing any lines as far as being too political. If I have PLEASE just delete this message.

1) I can't say I like the idea of showing disrespect for the country. America is not perfect.

4) It also shows how stupid a lot of the media is and in particular many Democrats are. They are letting Trump bait them into having a different conversation than they ought to be having. Instead of talking about what Trump is doing and what Trump has done they are instead having a "cultural" conversation about "feelings." One side can talk about how they "feel" and the other can respond. A conversation framed in a way that only works in Trump's favor. In this case on the "important" issue of whether someone stands or kneels during the introduction to a game of concussion ball.

1. Kneeling was never intended to show disrespect against America. Kaepernick's green beret team mate, Nate Boyer, suggested it as a good middle ground of respect and protest. Before that, Kaepernick was sitting on the bench during the anthem. A quote from Boyer:

"Soldiers take a knee in front of a fallen brother's grave, you know, to show respect. When we're on a patrol, you know, and we go into a security halt, we take a knee, and we pull security."

Boyer never knelt himself but stood with his arm on Kaep's shoulder to show support. They are friends.

4. It shows how stupid and easily manipulated everyone is. There are many republicans burning jerseys and season tickets over this, just Google it.

All your points on Trump are correct. He has turned a protest about police funding and training reform into something entirely different that is largely about him. It sucks.

Why do you feel people being upset with the protest equates to being manipulated?

I think a lot of people have that reaction because the protests were on no one's mind until Trump dug them up - it was last year's story, they were ongoing, but under the radar. He stirred the pot in order to control the news cycle and make sure no one paid attention to other issues.

[Ed Pinkney]

Read on Twitter

Even as a white Australian living on the other side of the world, I continue to be in awe of this man. He is the greatest.




I thought this piece from Trevor Noah on the Daily Show did a good job of succinctly capturing the grotesque absurdity of the whole situation.

Watch on YouTube

[return2glory]

Who elected Trump?

Who was the other choice?

McDonald's or Burger King?

In America, we have "Freedom of choice." But look at th choices and look at who allows us to pick what?

Who was the main person funding black lives matter? Look it up if you don't know? You think that person gives a **** about black lives? Think again. He is an evil person.

Politics is a big illusion. When they are focusing on racism and all the attention is there, they are hiding something else, something bigger.

[Slartibartfast]

...
As to California... I really should move to L.A. for career reasons. But while I'm coming around on the city as not horrible, it's unappealing for a whole host of reasons. I'm a wine nut so Santa Barbara appeals. I could just drive down south when I needed to. If I had a choice, I'd probably live in SF. But that's out of the question.

...
LA is cool, but maaaaaan, the traffic is just something else. I know many people who have carved out awesome lives there, living and working in places like Silver Lake or Santa Monica/Venice, but it's just not for me. Santa Barbara also a no, but San Luis Obispo is sweet if you don't mind college kids. The Sierra Nevada are pretty awesome, and I am glad that I'm getting a chance to experience them. Currently own a truck and do wilderness ****. When I look back at living in Boston, and miserably riding the Red Line to work in an office with other miserable people in the middle of a miserable winter, I just laugh. Why would anyone live that way? Why did I, for so long?

All in all, despite the flaws and costs of living, I can't really imagine NOT living in California. And if you are within walking distance of a beach, well... you don't really need much else. For my money, the best places to live are not actually the cities, but places near them or smaller cities (Marin/Sonoma counties, Chico, SLO, Tahoe). Anyhow, hit me up if you pull the trigger on it or if you have any questions.

That's the big if here - California that's not within 10 miles of the beach is nothing special. I've lived in Sacramento, OC, LA and the IE, and really only one place didn't mostly suck (Westminster). And I had to move out of there when I wanted to buy a house because property values were so insane (not like Westminster is a beach town either - blue collar ville).

If you make great money, avoid commutes longer than 10 miles and live with 10 miles of the beach, California is great. If not, it feels a lot like Arizona or Nevada only ridiculously overpriced and overcrowded.

[Slax]

4. It shows how stupid and easily manipulated everyone is. There are many republicans burning jerseys and season tickets over this, just Google it.

All part of the NFL's plans.

[Froob]

Americans and the uber patriotism always makes me laugh abit as an outsider. I mean, half of us in England don't even like our national anthem. The only time I ever even acknowledge or sing it is when I'm drunk as **** before an International Football Match.

Hell, a leader of one of our main political parties openly doesn't even sing it and he's currently the most popular politician in the popularity polls

It's not even that we are super liberal or anything as we are far from it, but I suppose we aren't as in your face patriotic for this to have become such a big story here.

It's a **** song as well honestly. America the Beautiful, on the other hand, is a **** banger.

I never understood why this is such a popular opinion lol I think it sounds great (when they don't butcher the ending), I think Canada's sounds far worse. But, I would prefer a song that wasn't about war..there's too much glorifying that as it is. That's what leads to little questioning of tossing more money into Afghanistan with seemingly no strategy or clear goal...instead of healthcare, education, literally anything else hell I'd rather buy gold toilet seats for everyone. But guess that's one for another thread.

[ZeroTolerance]

Who elected Trump?

Who was the other choice?

McDonald's or Burger King?

In America, we have "Freedom of choice." But look at the choices and look at who allows us to pick what?

Who was the main person funding black lives matter? Look it up if you don't know? You think that person gives a **** about black lives? Think again. He is an evil person.

Politics is a big illusion. When they are focusing on racism and all the attention is there, they are hiding something else, something bigger.

Personally, I'd love to be able to boycott politics....Trouble is that if you do this, it will probably mean someone is going to poke it to you....

We can't ever just look the other way....and if anything, we need to become even more political in order to stem the tide of what a relatively small group of fed up people and their "dictator like" (and I'm trying to be nice here) leader have been able to do...

It's frustrating for sure....But we have got to get better at this and come up with some good rational candidates that provide us with a clear choice....

[ViperGTS]

Americans and the uber patriotism always makes me laugh abit as an outsider. I mean, half of us in England don't even like our national anthem. The only time I ever even acknowledge or sing it is when I'm drunk as **** before an International Football Match.

Hell, a leader of one of our main political parties openly doesn't even sing it and he's currently the most popular politician in the popularity polls

It's not even that we are super liberal or anything as we are far from it, but I suppose we aren't as in your face patriotic for this to have become such a big story here.

It's a **** song as well honestly. America the Beautiful, on the other hand, is a **** banger.

I never understood why this is such a popular opinion lol I think it sounds great (when they don't butcher the ending), I think Canada's sounds far worse. But, I would prefer a song that wasn't about war..there's too much glorifying that as it is. That's what leads to little questioning of tossing more money into Afghanistan with seemingly no strategy or clear goal...instead of healthcare, education, literally anything else hell I'd rather buy gold toilet seats for everyone. But guess that's one for another thread.

This is about as far as I’ll go with this topic. Considering it’s its a specific thread it’s somewhat okay. You want to kneel for the anthem? Go for it. It’s a can you, yes...but should you topic. Be prepared with the backlash as most find it offensive.

Put it this way. What do you believe the optics were for this countries enemies when American football players are kneeling for the national anthem and standing for God Save the Queen? It’s propaganda 101 and that is lost on most people.

I’m all for racial equality...but I’m not one for revisionist history or wanting to relive a time in American history that was incredibly awful (race relations of the 50s-60s). I didn’t live it, but have studied it and what a horrible time. There is nothing, and I mean nothing even close to that is going on today even though some want to convince others that it is. Those are people with nothing but disdain for this country and refusal to acknowledge the real issue in the minority communities.

I’m all for the debates/protests over the living situations of those less fortunate. Not to mention the horrific (and climbing) murder rates amongst African Americans by African Americans according to the FBI crime statistics..of which updated ones were just released. They ar real depressing. That’s the real problem and one that is quickly dismissed because it’s the hardest problem to solve. The race inequality card is so much easier to play.

I’ve lived for 38 years so far. In all my years, and multiple different cities all across the country (thanks military), I have never seen anyone shot and killed by a cop. Never. If it’s so common (which it’s not) then I’d assume I’d have at least seen something by now. I’d assume. Most must see it on a daily if not monthly basis because it’s such an epidemic.

Here’s a breakdown of murders by race.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2015.xls

2,664 African Americans killed in 2015. 229 were killed by Caucasians and 2,380 were killed by African Americans.

I can’t go off of anything but statistics.

[claycarver]

Who elected Trump?

Who was the other choice?

McDonald's or Burger King?

In America, we have "Freedom of choice." But look at the choices and look at who allows us to pick what?

Who was the main person funding black lives matter? Look it up if you don't know? You think that person gives a **** about black lives? Think again. He is an evil person.

Politics is a big illusion. When they are focusing on racism and all the attention is there, they are hiding something else, something bigger.

Personally, I'd love to be able to boycott politics....Trouble is that if you do this, it will probably mean someone is going to poke it to you....

We can't ever just look the other way....and if anything, we need to become even more political in order to stem the tide of what a relatively small group of fed up people and their "dictator like" (and I'm trying to be nice here) leader have been able to do...

It's frustrating for sure....But we have got to get better at this and come up with some good rational candidates that provide us with a clear choice....

I voted, but I didn't vote for Hillary or Donald. I'm all done with the binary choice between 2 evils. Some of my friends said I threw my vote away and I guess I did. I knew the person I voted for couldn't win. But I don't care anymore. I'm not supporting someone I hate just because that candidate has a chance to win.

[ZeroTolerance]

I voted, but I didn't vote for Hillary or Donald. I'm all done with the binary choice between 2 evils

I'd love to be able to have a (none of above) choice that could count....

However, the only way that that could become a meaningful vote would be to change the election laws....get rid of the Electoral College, and have it so that only a candidate who received a (50% or more) "majority" of the popular vote could be elected....

If no candidate received this majority, there would have to be a series of runoff elections until one candidate receiving a majority of the popular vote prevailed.....

But do you realize how difficult it would be to enact this sort of reform?

You probably would never get the two major parties to agree on this....heck you can't get them to agree on anything right now....and it's been that way since Adam and Eve spotted that apple tree in the garden....

[Froob]

Who elected Trump?

Who was the other choice?

McDonald's or Burger King?

In America, we have "Freedom of choice." But look at the choices and look at who allows us to pick what?

Who was the main person funding black lives matter? Look it up if you don't know? You think that person gives a **** about black lives? Think again. He is an evil person.

Politics is a big illusion. When they are focusing on racism and all the attention is there, they are hiding something else, something bigger.

Personally, I'd love to be able to boycott politics....Trouble is that if you do this, it will probably mean someone is going to poke it to you....

We can't ever just look the other way....and if anything, we need to become even more political in order to stem the tide of what a relatively small group of fed up people and their "dictator like" (and I'm trying to be nice here) leader have been able to do...

It's frustrating for sure....But we have got to get better at this and come up with some good rational candidates that provide us with a clear choice....

I voted, but I didn't vote for Hillary or Donald. I'm all done with the binary choice between 2 evils. Some of my friends said I threw my vote away and I guess I did. I knew the person I voted for couldn't win. But I don't care anymore. I'm not supporting someone I hate just because that candidate has a chance to win.

We allowed the debate commission to be run by two parties that are happy to work together to keep all others put. Sadly there was no peace or hard core civil liberties canindate in the debates.

[Andrew McCeltic]

I’m all for the debates/protests over the living situations of those less fortunate. Not to mention the horrific (and climbing) murder rates amongst African Americans by African Americans according to the FBI crime statistics..of which updated ones were just released. They ar real depressing. That’s the real problem and one that is quickly dismissed because it’s the hardest problem to solve. The race inequality card is so much easier to play.

I’ve lived for 38 years so far. In all my years, and multiple different cities all across the country (thanks military), I have never seen anyone shot and killed by a cop. Never. If it’s so common (which it’s not) then I’d assume I’d have at least seen something by now. I’d assume. Most must see it on a daily if not monthly basis because it’s such an epidemic.

Here’s a breakdown of murders by race.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2015.xls

2,664 African Americans killed in 2015. 229 were killed by Caucasians and 2,380 were killed by African Americans.

I can’t go off of anything but statistics.

1. Most murders are intra-racial.

2. I’ve never seen a child abducted in front of me - that doesn’t mean we don’t need Amber Alerts.

3. When you combine poverty, impoverishment (not just poor people but poor people in neighborhoods with decrepit schools, apartments, etc.), population density, lack of economic opportunity, guns, over policing, over incarceration, drugs, a drug war, and high levels of trauma, it’s a recipe for disaster. It has nothing to do with race, and nothing to do with “the black community” - it’s human nature. It’s a disgrace it exists in America. It doesn’t mean black people have to handle “their” issue before they have credibility to speak out about anything else. And it’s a problem for the American community - white, black, brown, we should all care when some part of our society is broken. That doesn’t mean letting bully police run roughshod over “thugs” - we need humane interventions at different points in the system.

4. The issue with police brutality isn’t just the frequency - Black people are “hassled” by suspicious police officers, so excess use of force is different when relations are already strained. The other issue is that police can kill with impunity in this country, and there’s a deep seated reluctance to hold officers accountable, because they’re sympathetic perps. But manslaughter convictions should be happening more frequently than they do - we find panic and suspicion to be alibis to make impulsive shootings “reasonable” - if an officer had “reasonable” grounds to think their life was in danger. The officer who shot Tamir Rice should have been convicted for manslaughter. That doesn’t mean the sentencing has to be severe, even - but that there has to be some minimal shred of justice and accountability. And cops are cowardly sometimes - they exercise less discretion in use of force protocol than soldiers in combat zones. Trucking and farming are deadlier jobs than policing, but you wouldn’t know it from what we hear from police. They want the credibility that comes from risking their safety to serve others, but they rarely risk their safety at all. They can be fake tough guys.