"A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ The Equality & Other Issues Thread

[truth18]

On the premise that we are a Nation divided....I think it is both proper and necessary that we discuss what happened last night in Los Vegas Nevada....Where well over 500 innocent people were shot and at the latest count 58 people died at the hands of a 64 year old gun nut....

I think it is obscene that this country continues to look the other way and does nothing to prevent the sale of automatic weapons.....

PERIOD!

As far as I'm concerned if you are a card carrying NRA member or a person who attends gun shows or goes overboard in any way shape or form about the right to bear arms, then the blood of all those innocent people is on you!

You should feel both ashamed and responsible every time an incident like this happens.....

I feel sick that this country, as great as it is, continues to look the other way.....and I'm sure that I'm far from being alone on this...

I feel you, man, but I gave up hope on gun control after Sandy Hook.

I don't care anymore. If twenty seven children being murdered can't make us have slight gun control reform it's pointless in trying imo. Futile stuff.

Incident is horrible though. This guy was pure evil. So sad for the victims.

[31to6]

ZeroT I'm as anti-gun violence as they come but no state allows the sale of automatic weapons.

[Captain_Caveman]

Auburn is great. So is the coast. I like the little mountain communities like Idyllwild and Cool and Angel's Camp too. Heck, I even like Weed.

But there are great pockets of Arizona and Nevada too. My point is, take away the coasts (which cost of living does for most of us) and California just isn't that special.

2/3rds of CA's 40m people live at or near the coast, though. I know it's not cheap, but that is CA for most people. A lot of the inland places are also pretty spectacular once you get north of LA. The Sierra Nevada are **** incredible and take up a huge chunk of the state's land area.

As someone who has lived all over the country, I guess the question I would have is, "Where's the better place to live?"

[ZeroTolerance]

ZeroT I'm as anti-gun violence as they come but no state allows the sale of automatic weapons.

But they all allow just about anyone to buy semi automatic weapons that can be converted to fully automatic weapons for a measly 50 dollar bill....

Technically you may be right but....there are ways around that issue....internet sales...or just the general ability to purchase these upgrades.... and guess what?....The NRA dosen't care....

And as far as I know, there is no control of those sales whatsoever....

So to me, that argument is total BS...

[ZeroTolerance]

On the premise that we are a Nation divided....I think it is both proper and necessary that we discuss what happened last night in Los Vegas Nevada....Where well over 500 innocent people were shot and at the latest count 58 people died at the hands of a 64 year old gun nut....

I think it is obscene that this country continues to look the other way and does nothing to prevent the sale of automatic weapons.....

PERIOD!

As far as I'm concerned if you are a card carrying NRA member or a person who attends gun shows or goes overboard in any way shape or form about the right to bear arms, then the blood of all those innocent people is on you!

You should feel both ashamed and responsible every time an incident like this happens.....

I feel sick that this country, as great as it is, continues to look the other way.....and I'm sure that I'm far from being alone on this...

I feel you, man, but I gave up hope on gun control after Sandy Hook.

I don't care anymore. If twenty seven children being murdered can't make us have slight gun control reform it's pointless in trying imo. Futile stuff.

Incident is horrible though. This guy was pure evil. So sad for the victims.

We shouldn't just give up....We can't continue to look the other way....this is another issue just as important as any other issue we have discussed...

It affects our lives and our children's lives as well....

[claycarver]

Auburn is great. So is the coast. I like the little mountain communities like Idyllwild and Cool and Angel's Camp too. Heck, I even like Weed.

But there are great pockets of Arizona and Nevada too. My point is, take away the coasts (which cost of living does for most of us) and California just isn't that special.

2/3rds of CA's 40m people live at or near the coast, though. I know it's not cheap, but that is CA for most people. A lot of the inland places are also pretty spectacular once you get north of LA. The Sierra Nevada are **** incredible and take up a huge chunk of the state's land area.

As someone who has lived all over the country, I guess the question I would have is, "Where's the better place to live?"

Maryland. I've lived all over and I like it here best. If you watch MotorWeek where they test drive on those winding roads through horse country...that's outside Baltimore a bit. I love it here.



I live in the middle of this stuff.

edit: Kevin Plank bought up Sagamore Farm, which had fallen into disrepair after one of the Vanderbilts gave it up, and he's improved the property incredibly.

I live 4 houses down from his 530 acre joint (on our tiny 4 acre plot) It's so pretty around here, it can make vacations kind of a let down.

I did like King's Canyon a lot. I think a lot of California gets more press than it deserves, but King's Canyon is an underrated gem.

[Slartibartfast]

Auburn is great. So is the coast. I like the little mountain communities like Idyllwild and Cool and Angel's Camp too. Heck, I even like Weed.

But there are great pockets of Arizona and Nevada too. My point is, take away the coasts (which cost of living does for most of us) and California just isn't that special.

2/3rds of CA's 40m people live at or near the coast, though. I know it's not cheap, but that is CA for most people. A lot of the inland places are also pretty spectacular once you get north of LA. The Sierra Nevada are **** incredible and take up a huge chunk of the state's land area.

As someone who has lived all over the country, I guess the question I would have is, "Where's the better place to live?"

I love the Willamette Valley in Oregon and really everything up that corridor to the Olympic Peninsula. Everything green, beautiful seasons without getting too hot in summer or cold in winter. Used to be pretty cheap too - I had friends who were renting a 2-story old Victorian in a decent Portland neighborhood for $500, while I was in a 2-bed/2 bath apartment in Anaheim that was a steal at $780.

Think that secret got out awhile ago - last time I checked Portland real estate was going through the roof too. Everybody wants that West Coast.

[bigfoot_cryptozoology]

This the Sadness Thread... and Tom Petty dies...

Watch on YouTube

[Fencer reregistered]

This the Sadness Thread... and Tom Petty dies...

Watch on YouTube

Of the Traveling Wilburys, 3 are now dead ... and a 4th is a Nobel Laureate.

Watch on YouTube

[ViperGTS]

ZeroT I'm as anti-gun violence as they come but no state allows the sale of automatic weapons.

But they all allow just about anyone to buy semi automatic weapons that can be converted to fully automatic weapons for a measly 50 dollar bill....

Technically you may be right but....there are ways around that issue....internet sales...or just the general ability to purchase these upgrades.... and guess what?....The NRA dosen't care....

And as far as I know, there is no control of those sales whatsoever....

So to me, that argument is total BS...

You are totally uniformed. Let me clear it up for you as you have been fed false information.

Edit: The latter was in response to your first post.

This is to your last one. The only way you can purchase a firearm online without a background check is person to person transfers. How you go about that I don’t really know. I’m a gun owner and part of several websites that have members trolling Craislist and the like for “fully auto whatever for $4000” etc. They usually report them to the ATF. Our educated guess about those? ATF stings to catch stupid people. Once in a great while someone “lucks” out but more often than not those are ops run to find the criminals and dumb people.

If you buy a weapon of any kind from an online seller, it cannot be shipped to a P.O Box or personal address. It can only be shipped to a Federal Firearm Licsensee, which is what a gun dealer has to have. Then you go there, they do a background check and if you pass, you get the firearm.

As far as drop in items to make a fully auto weapon..well I’d say it’s the above with the ATF running ops. No way they aren’t all over this and I believe you can be prosecuted for having the parts not even installed.


For one, you cannot waltz into a gun store and buy a fully auto weapon. You just flat out can’t. You need to do a full background check with the ATF. This is done with I believe a Form 4, which includes passport photos, pay a fee and that whole package gets sent out (digitally now). Before, it would take a person up to a year to receive his “stamp” which is only applied to the rifle it is used on. Now, with the recently enacted digital firms, the process can be sped up to ~ 6 weeks.

So no, they are strictly registered on file with the ATF. They can deny if they so choose. The fines are severe if you are caught with a full auto, SBR, or suppressor without the stamp. Everything other than a semi auto needs an ATF stamp.

I hope this clears some stuff up because it’s mind numbing to hear falsehoods being told.

[Captain_Caveman]

ZeroT I'm as anti-gun violence as they come but no state allows the sale of automatic weapons.

But they all allow just about anyone to buy semi automatic weapons that can be converted to fully automatic weapons for a measly 50 dollar bill....

Technically you may be right but....there are ways around that issue....internet sales...or just the general ability to purchase these upgrades.... and guess what?....The NRA dosen't care....

And as far as I know, there is no control of those sales whatsoever....

So to me, that argument is total BS...

You are totally uniformed. Let me clear it up for you as you have been fed false information.

Edit: The latter was in response to your first post.

This is to your last one. The only way you can purchase a firearm online without a background check is person to person transfers. How you go about that I don’t really know. I’m a gun owner and part of several websites that have members trolling Craislist and the like for “fully auto whatever for $4000” etc. They usually report them to the ATF. Our educated guess about those? ATF stings to catch stupid people. Once in a great while someone “lucks” out but more often than not those are ops run to find the criminals and dumb people.

If you buy a weapon of any kind from an online seller, it cannot be shipped to a P.O Box or personal address. It can only be shipped to a Federal Firearm Licsensee, which is what a gun dealer has to have. Then you go there, they do a background check and if you pass, you get the firearm.



For one, you cannot waltz into a gun store and buy a fully auto weapon. You just flat out can’t. You need to do a full background check with the ATF. This is done with I believe a Form 4, which includes passport photos, pay a fee and that whole package gets sent out (digitally now). Before, it would take a person up to a year to receive his “stamp” which is only applied to the rifle it is used on. Now, with the recently enacted digital firms, the process can be sped up to ~ 6 weeks.

So no, they are strictly registered on file with the ATF. They can deny if they so choose. The fines are severe if you are caught with a full auto, SBR, or suppressor without the stamp. Everything other than a semi auto needs an ATF stamp.

I hope this clears some stuff up because it’s mind numbing to hear falsehoods being told.

Yes, a totally appropriate time to wow us with your knowledge of firearm regulations.

Even if they were not technically fully automatic rifles, there are several easy mods and workarounds that can make them essentially function as such. Especially in states with lax regulation such as Nevada.

Hence the 59 people murdered and 527 people injured. You saw some of the videos. right? Sounded like the 4th of July. Guy was able to unload hundreds if not thousands of rounds within a couple of minutes.

[ViperGTS]

But they all allow just about anyone to buy semi automatic weapons that can be converted to fully automatic weapons for a measly 50 dollar bill....

Technically you may be right but....there are ways around that issue....internet sales...or just the general ability to purchase these upgrades.... and guess what?....The NRA dosen't care....

And as far as I know, there is no control of those sales whatsoever....

So to me, that argument is total BS...

You are totally uniformed. Let me clear it up for you as you have been fed false information.

Edit: The latter was in response to your first post.

This is to your last one. The only way you can purchase a firearm online without a background check is person to person transfers. How you go about that I don’t really know. I’m a gun owner and part of several websites that have members trolling Craislist and the like for “fully auto whatever for $4000” etc. They usually report them to the ATF. Our educated guess about those? ATF stings to catch stupid people. Once in a great while someone “lucks” out but more often than not those are ops run to find the criminals and dumb people.

If you buy a weapon of any kind from an online seller, it cannot be shipped to a P.O Box or personal address. It can only be shipped to a Federal Firearm Licsensee, which is what a gun dealer has to have. Then you go there, they do a background check and if you pass, you get the firearm.



For one, you cannot waltz into a gun store and buy a fully auto weapon. You just flat out can’t. You need to do a full background check with the ATF. This is done with I believe a Form 4, which includes passport photos, pay a fee and that whole package gets sent out (digitally now). Before, it would take a person up to a year to receive his “stamp” which is only applied to the rifle it is used on. Now, with the recently enacted digital firms, the process can be sped up to ~ 6 weeks.

So no, they are strictly registered on file with the ATF. They can deny if they so choose. The fines are severe if you are caught with a full auto, SBR, or suppressor without the stamp. Everything other than a semi auto needs an ATF stamp.

I hope this clears some stuff up because it’s mind numbing to hear falsehoods being told.

Yes, a totally appropriate time to wow us with your knowledge of firearm regulations.

Even if they were not technically fully automatic rifles, there are several easy mods and workarounds that can make them essentially function as such. Especially in states with lax regulation such as Nevada.

Hence the 59 people murdered and 529 people injured. You saw some of the videos. right? Sounded like the 4th of July. Guy was able to unload hundreds if not thousands of rounds within a couple of minutes.

Well I’m not going sit back and let falsehoods go. That’s how we have these falsehoods in the first place. What happened was terrible, disgusting and lots of stuff needs to be fleshed out so I’m waiting to see what unfolds. I have my thoughts but without concrete info they are worthless.

I do know about how to make a rifle fully auto and that’s a step that has myself and all reposnsible gun owners terrified of going to federal prison if we did it. I won’t even entertain the thought. It’s not something to fool around with just because. Criminals, on the other hand..well..they just don’t care.

[Andrew McCeltic]

My only argument would be that this is for most people, not just most conservatives.

Probably true, but the intellectually responsible contingent is more significant on the left.

Almost every major conservative policy priority in the United States -- at least the domestic ones -- is in wild opposition to reality, and that's been true since the "much-needed correction" aspect of the early Reagan years was played out.

Or when they're not, they get utterly wrapped up in nonsense, since as the anti-scientific arguments used to support what could be a perfectly fact-respecting moral objection to abortion.

Really? Communism with such a great record of success? Classical liberalism (the ideology of the 'right' today) isn't responsible for more prosperity and progress than any other known to the planet?

Classical liberalism is ok. We don't have that on the right or left - both have authoritarian tendencies, IMO, the right with police and the national security state, and Trump, and the left in universities and the media.

Unrestrained capitalism and the gutting of public goods and services isn't "classical liberalism". Neither is the "Liberal Knows Best" condescension of cultural elites on the left, who hoard cultural capital and pretend conservatives have no legitimate points or concerns whatsoever.

[Ed Pinkney]

Free universal healthcare and a well funded and secular public education system, including university education. It is no great mystery that if you make your population smarter and healthier, negative health and social issues will decrease. It's not going to make a nation some sort of crime free utopia, but it would help.

We could do more of all that with more equitable taxation levels, and should.

But simply put, the money doesn't exist for that. A lot of times, people's ideological perspective looks past the reality IMO. Things that worked in other times or places won't work in America in 2017. I mean, Norway does all that stuff, and it's great. They are also an oil-rich nation of 5m homogeneous, affluent and educated people.

It's my biggest issue with Bernie Sanders, quite frankly. He is stuck in a moment in time where we were in the midst of a baby boom and unprecedented manufacturing power. In the 1960s, there were something like 4 working aged people (aka taxpayers) for every retired person. If people had a pension, great. They'd retire and then drop dead in 5 years. Now, we keep an aging population alive for an extra 5-10 years, with crazy high end-of-life costs. Free education used to mean subsidizing a few thousand dollars a year for each student. Now, it would mean an average of $30k or so.

Free basic/preventative health care and community college or trade school? Cool. Cancer treatments or top 100 university tuition? Subsidized to an extent, but not free. Even with tax increases on the rich and corporations.

That's just the reality of globalization (which I nevertheless support on balance). Heard a very interesting quote from Jeffrey Sachs once. He said that throughout human history, at any given moment, 5/6ths of people lives in abject poverty. With globalization, that ratio is down to 2/3rds and falling. This is inherently a good thing for the most part, but there are winners and losers in everything, and it's not lost on the Brexit and Trump or Sanders voters that they are on the wrong side of that line.

They are being displaced from low-skilled jobs, and they have tremendous fear and anger over that. These are the first generations who didn't automatically have everything better and easier than their parents, and they want to turn back the clock to a brief moment in time where their parents and grandparents could graduate high school and support a family off one income pulling a **** lever at a car factory 8 hours a day.

In their own way, Trump and Sanders and the Brexit folks both promise them that this can happen. That it should happen. It's a call for hegemony and empire, both in the UK and the US. At least the Trump people are up front about that, lol.

Truth is, there is no success to be found, in this generation or any other, in using 50 year old ideas and looking backwards. Always forward, never back. We are in a period of massive change. More change in the last 50 years than in all of human history to that point, in fact. Adapt or perish. We need to accept reality and plan for 2060, not 1960 (or 1860, as these libertarian types would have us do). Workforces need to be retrained, entitlement programs need to be streamlined, and we need to suck it up a bit.

Still the best time ever to be alive... if you are white and from the Western world.

Agree totally with many of your points. It will always be incredibly difficult in a large capitalist democracy to achieve these things (even though most reasonable people would think are sensical). Most Scandinavian countries have very high tax rates which (along with your points on Norway on small population size, resources etc) make it more achievable in those places. Politicians are obviously driven to a large extent by what will get them elected and then re-elected, making a more equitable taxation system that would probably need to also raise taxes overall is unlikely to win many elections. Especially in a lobby driven system like the US.

I agree that free education shouldn't mean you get to go to Harvard for free just because you want to. But I still think that well funded, staffed and resourced tertiary education for those who want it should not be some sort of unrealistic dream, even in a country with a population size like the US. And wealth will always drive the market for a certain amount of private education, so it should never be necessary to provide it to 100% of the population. In Australia we brought in free university education in the early 70's and it lasted about 20 years. The numbers of students who finished Year 12 continued to climb as did the number of university students and it was wound back and ended as the government of the day deemed it no longer a sustainable idea. They brought in a government loan system that at least meant no upfront fees, but it still saddled students with a sizeable debt on graduation (though nothing like what I believe it is like in the US). This debt has continued to increase in size though, especially if you do any sort of post graduate qualifications.

I am also a high school teacher in the public system here, and have seen first hand the changes that insufficient funding and a growing drain from the rise in popularity of private schools has had. We also have had conservative governments (our equivalent in many ways of the GOP) in power for a majority of the last 20 years that continues to push as further from the ideals of free healthcare and education that have been a vital part of our culture for decades. They would prefer a user pays, privatised system for many services the last several generations have seen as a core part of government purpose.

The healthcare side of things should be even more straight forward. Again, elective surgery, private hospitals etc are a separate idea, but basic healthcare shouldn't be seen as some sort of parasite on the economy or the government. I find the idea of someone not being able to pay the fees associated with a car accident, or their kid breaking their arm falling off their bike, or being refused care, just because of their socioeconomic status abhorrent.

You make good points on the Sanders rhetoric being outdated and unrealistic in 2017 and especially moving forward over the next several decades. In Australia we have similar issues in regards to an ageing population and lower birth rates (that are only really offset by immigration). We have also seen a push back against the two party system that has been the core of our political makeup since federation, with Trump/Brexit type independents winning sufficient numbers of seats in parliament because they have been able to tap into similar levels of dissatisfaction and angst that they are having their way of life eroded and things are not as easy as they should be. Immigrants (particularly muslims), prejudice and nationalism continue to be a touchstone for these independents too.

[Cyclical]

Is it like the dougie? I liked that. How come nobody dougies anymore? better than whip your nae nae imo.

As much as I remember the dougie wasn't about protesting police brutality against minorities in epidemic proportions, so no, taking a knee is not like the dougie.

[Cyclical]

Look, man. I am a left-leaning moderate who has never spent a day registered to either party. I would vote Romney over Sanders without even blinking, but I have a low tolerance for bull **** falsehoods and you are spewing a lot of them right now. No idea how this Shapiro fool became the flavor of the week for conservatives, but I'm just gonna say that a guy who went to a $30k a year private school doesn't need to be lecturing the black community about how racism doesn't exist and that it's all just a problem of their culture's unwillingness to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

Just the takes you have mentioned in this thread are deeply and unequivocally racist to the core, even if I suspect you aren't educated enough to grasp that.

Which brings me to my second point. A good friend is a campaign consultant for the GOP at the highest level. As in, one of the top Trump rivals in the GOP Presidential campaign in 2016. He brags openly about how easy it to manipulate the GOP voting base of uneducated white males. Just zero respect for his own constituents, and even he is in complete shock at how easily Trump can get his supporters to believe incredibly ignorant, easily disprovable falsehoods.

He says nothing loudly, and it speaks to the id of white males who know that they are falling into the ether of a global economy that they are neither educated nor skilled enough to compete in. They are fearful of their loss of status, and they should be. They are increasingly obsolete and believe in an outdated, discredited ideology that is on the wrong side of every major issue of our time. Rather than look within and try to take advantage of the unprecedented opportunity that exists for white American males, they need to blame other people. The government, blacks, immigrants, liberals... pretty much anyone and everyone but the people who are actually screwing them. They live in a zero sum game in their minds where others must lose for them to win.

Their bluster is not strength. It is fear and weakness, and again, easily manipulated. Again, I have no horse in the race and don't care for the nuts and bolts (aka fairly tales) of what hacks like Bernie are out there promoting, but let's be perfectly real about who the snowflakes are right now. For all the tough guy talk about "libtards getting triggered", there's no one in the history of Earth who gets triggered more easily than modern conservatives do.

Kneeling for anthems, protestors, emails, Benghazi, Black Lives Matter, who Obama's pastor is. They live in a constant state of fake outrage at manufactured scandals, false equivalence and non-issues. People like my friend can literally get conservatives to whine and cry about ANYTHING at the drop of a hat. And they do. They really do.

They are, without question, the softest people who have ever lived.

Caveman, I gotta give it up to you man. You're posting some gems in this thread. No reasonable empathetic human being could ever argue with this.

[ZeroTolerance]

ZeroT I'm as anti-gun violence as they come but no state allows the sale of automatic weapons.

But they all allow just about anyone to buy semi automatic weapons that can be converted to fully automatic weapons for a measly 50 dollar bill....

Technically you may be right but....there are ways around that issue....internet sales...or just the general ability to purchase these upgrades.... and guess what?....The NRA dosen't care....

And as far as I know, there is no control of those sales whatsoever....

So to me, that argument is total BS...

You are totally uniformed. Let me clear it up for you as you have been fed false information.

Edit: The latter was in response to your first post.

This is to your last one. The only way you can purchase a firearm online without a background check is person to person transfers. How you go about that I don’t really know. I’m a gun owner and part of several websites that have members trolling Craislist and the like for “fully auto whatever for $4000” etc. They usually report them to the ATF. Our educated guess about those? ATF stings to catch stupid people. Once in a great while someone “lucks” out but more often than not those are ops run to find the criminals and dumb people.

If you buy a weapon of any kind from an online seller, it cannot be shipped to a P.O Box or personal address. It can only be shipped to a Federal Firearm Licsensee, which is what a gun dealer has to have. Then you go there, they do a background check and if you pass, you get the firearm.

As far as drop in items to make a fully auto weapon..well I’d say it’s the above with the ATF running ops. No way they aren’t all over this and I believe you can be prosecuted for having the parts not even installed.


For one, you cannot waltz into a gun store and buy a fully auto weapon. You just flat out can’t. You need to do a full background check with the ATF. This is done with I believe a Form 4, which includes passport photos, pay a fee and that whole package gets sent out (digitally now). Before, it would take a person up to a year to receive his “stamp” which is only applied to the rifle it is used on. Now, with the recently enacted digital firms, the process can be sped up to ~ 6 weeks.

So no, they are strictly registered on file with the ATF. They can deny if they so choose. The fines are severe if you are caught with a full auto, SBR, or suppressor without the stamp. Everything other than a semi auto needs an ATF stamp.

I hope this clears some stuff up because it’s mind numbing to hear falsehoods being told.

I've got to honestly tell you.....I think it's obscene for anyone to own these guns.....

And regardless of the purchase regulations, the fact that almost anyone can amass the kind of arsenal that this gun nut had is a danger to everyone....even those who champion his right to do so.....

This is the year 2017.....not 1776....there needs to be a constitutional amendment that protects those who want to own hunting rifles and even hand guns with which to protect ones self....but all of those semi-automatic weapons and their upgrades should only be available to law enforcement types....not the average Joe....

And perhaps in time, this adjustment would make for a safer world for our children to live in....

IMO....The NRA is the outfit with the outdated ideas....Since when are their rights more important than the safety of innocent people and those children who have died while trying to go to school?

Enough is enough already.....The NRA should be ashamed of what it is that they stand for....I'm sorry, they are just wrong...They need to change their tune and give a little and then do the right thing...

[ViperGTS]

But they all allow just about anyone to buy semi automatic weapons that can be converted to fully automatic weapons for a measly 50 dollar bill....

Technically you may be right but....there are ways around that issue....internet sales...or just the general ability to purchase these upgrades.... and guess what?....The NRA dosen't care....

And as far as I know, there is no control of those sales whatsoever....

So to me, that argument is total BS...

You are totally uniformed. Let me clear it up for you as you have been fed false information.

Edit: The latter was in response to your first post.

This is to your last one. The only way you can purchase a firearm online without a background check is person to person transfers. How you go about that I don’t really know. I’m a gun owner and part of several websites that have members trolling Craislist and the like for “fully auto whatever for $4000” etc. They usually report them to the ATF. Our educated guess about those? ATF stings to catch stupid people. Once in a great while someone “lucks” out but more often than not those are ops run to find the criminals and dumb people.

If you buy a weapon of any kind from an online seller, it cannot be shipped to a P.O Box or personal address. It can only be shipped to a Federal Firearm Licsensee, which is what a gun dealer has to have. Then you go there, they do a background check and if you pass, you get the firearm.

As far as drop in items to make a fully auto weapon..well I’d say it’s the above with the ATF running ops. No way they aren’t all over this and I believe you can be prosecuted for having the parts not even installed.


For one, you cannot waltz into a gun store and buy a fully auto weapon. You just flat out can’t. You need to do a full background check with the ATF. This is done with I believe a Form 4, which includes passport photos, pay a fee and that whole package gets sent out (digitally now). Before, it would take a person up to a year to receive his “stamp” which is only applied to the rifle it is used on. Now, with the recently enacted digital firms, the process can be sped up to ~ 6 weeks.

So no, they are strictly registered on file with the ATF. They can deny if they so choose. The fines are severe if you are caught with a full auto, SBR, or suppressor without the stamp. Everything other than a semi auto needs an ATF stamp.

I hope this clears some stuff up because it’s mind numbing to hear falsehoods being told.

I've got to honestly tell you.....I think it's obscene for anyone to own these guns.....

And regardless of the purchase regulations, the fact that almost anyone can amass the kind of arsenal that this gun nut had is a danger to everyone....even those who champion his right to do so.....

This is the year 2017.....not 1776....there needs to be a constitutional amendment that protects those who want to own hunting rifles and even hand guns with which to protect ones self....but all of those semi-automatic weapons and their upgrades should only be available to law enforcement types....not the average Joe....

And perhaps in time, this adjustment would make for a safer world for our children to live in....

IMO....The NRA is the outfit with the outdated ideas....Since when are their rights more important than the safety of innocent people and those children who have died while trying to go to school?

Enough is enough already.....The NRA should be ashamed of what it is that they stand for....I'm sorry, they are just wrong...They need to change their tune and give a little and then do the right thing...

However anyone wants to spin it, the 2nd was written right after the colonists beat the British army with their own weapons and arms they captured. There was some manufacturing but not that much. They knew the population needed the teeth to fight back. The saying the 2nd was created to ensure the 1st never dies is very much true.

No, an armed population is the only thing that gives an oppressive government, either democratically elected or otherwise, pause. All throughout history countries that have been disarmed are ripe for oppression. It’s not a doomsday thought. It’s a realistic possibility. Even outside of that, natural disaster, a failure of the national power grid, you name it will cause massive panic and the local law enforcement will be overwhelmed. I want to be able to protect myself and others if at all possible.

[truth18]

You are totally uniformed. Let me clear it up for you as you have been fed false information.

Edit: The latter was in response to your first post.

This is to your last one. The only way you can purchase a firearm online without a background check is person to person transfers. How you go about that I don’t really know. I’m a gun owner and part of several websites that have members trolling Craislist and the like for “fully auto whatever for $4000” etc. They usually report them to the ATF. Our educated guess about those? ATF stings to catch stupid people. Once in a great while someone “lucks” out but more often than not those are ops run to find the criminals and dumb people.

If you buy a weapon of any kind from an online seller, it cannot be shipped to a P.O Box or personal address. It can only be shipped to a Federal Firearm Licsensee, which is what a gun dealer has to have. Then you go there, they do a background check and if you pass, you get the firearm.

As far as drop in items to make a fully auto weapon..well I’d say it’s the above with the ATF running ops. No way they aren’t all over this and I believe you can be prosecuted for having the parts not even installed.


For one, you cannot waltz into a gun store and buy a fully auto weapon. You just flat out can’t. You need to do a full background check with the ATF. This is done with I believe a Form 4, which includes passport photos, pay a fee and that whole package gets sent out (digitally now). Before, it would take a person up to a year to receive his “stamp” which is only applied to the rifle it is used on. Now, with the recently enacted digital firms, the process can be sped up to ~ 6 weeks.

So no, they are strictly registered on file with the ATF. They can deny if they so choose. The fines are severe if you are caught with a full auto, SBR, or suppressor without the stamp. Everything other than a semi auto needs an ATF stamp.

I hope this clears some stuff up because it’s mind numbing to hear falsehoods being told.

I've got to honestly tell you.....I think it's obscene for anyone to own these guns.....

And regardless of the purchase regulations, the fact that almost anyone can amass the kind of arsenal that this gun nut had is a danger to everyone....even those who champion his right to do so.....

This is the year 2017.....not 1776....there needs to be a constitutional amendment that protects those who want to own hunting rifles and even hand guns with which to protect ones self....but all of those semi-automatic weapons and their upgrades should only be available to law enforcement types....not the average Joe....

And perhaps in time, this adjustment would make for a safer world for our children to live in....

IMO....The NRA is the outfit with the outdated ideas....Since when are their rights more important than the safety of innocent people and those children who have died while trying to go to school?

Enough is enough already.....The NRA should be ashamed of what it is that they stand for....I'm sorry, they are just wrong...They need to change their tune and give a little and then do the right thing...

No, an armed population is the only thing that gives an oppressive government, either democratically elected or otherwise, pause. All throughout history countries that have been disarmed are ripe for oppression. It’s not a doomsday thought. It’s a realistic possibility. Even outside of that, natural disaster, a failure of the national power grid, you name it will cause massive panic and the local law enforcement will be overwhelmed. I want to be able to protect myself and others if at all possible.

It's not. It was before nuclear weaponry and major advances in military technology but there is currently no reason for the government to care about that. They would win any conflict against the populace, easily.

Your points on the natural disaster stuff are more applicable to the times we live in.

[165bows]

Free universal healthcare and a well funded and secular public education system, including university education. It is no great mystery that if you make your population smarter and healthier, negative health and social issues will decrease. It's not going to make a nation some sort of crime free utopia, but it would help.

We could do more of all that with more equitable taxation levels, and should.

But simply put, the money doesn't exist for that. A lot of times, people's ideological perspective looks past the reality IMO. Things that worked in other times or places won't work in America in 2017. I mean, Norway does all that stuff, and it's great. They are also an oil-rich nation of 5m homogeneous, affluent and educated people.

It's my biggest issue with Bernie Sanders, quite frankly. He is stuck in a moment in time where we were in the midst of a baby boom and unprecedented manufacturing power. In the 1960s, there were something like 4 working aged people (aka taxpayers) for every retired person. If people had a pension, great. They'd retire and then drop dead in 5 years. Now, we keep an aging population alive for an extra 5-10 years, with crazy high end-of-life costs. Free education used to mean subsidizing a few thousand dollars a year for each student. Now, it would mean an average of $30k or so.

Free basic/preventative health care and community college or trade school? Cool. Cancer treatments or top 100 university tuition? Subsidized to an extent, but not free. Even with tax increases on the rich and corporations.

That's just the reality of globalization (which I nevertheless support on balance). Heard a very interesting quote from Jeffrey Sachs once. He said that throughout human history, at any given moment, 5/6ths of people lives in abject poverty. With globalization, that ratio is down to 2/3rds and falling. This is inherently a good thing for the most part, but there are winners and losers in everything, and it's not lost on the Brexit and Trump or Sanders voters that they are on the wrong side of that line.

They are being displaced from low-skilled jobs, and they have tremendous fear and anger over that. These are the first generations who didn't automatically have everything better and easier than their parents, and they want to turn back the clock to a brief moment in time where their parents and grandparents could graduate high school and support a family off one income pulling a **** lever at a car factory 8 hours a day.

In their own way, Trump and Sanders and the Brexit folks both promise them that this can happen. That it should happen. It's a call for hegemony and empire, both in the UK and the US. At least the Trump people are up front about that, lol.

Truth is, there is no success to be found, in this generation or any other, in using 50 year old ideas and looking backwards. Always forward, never back. We are in a period of massive change. More change in the last 50 years than in all of human history to that point, in fact. Adapt or perish. We need to accept reality and plan for 2060, not 1960 (or 1860, as these libertarian types would have us do). Workforces need to be retrained, entitlement programs need to be streamlined, and we need to suck it up a bit.

Still the best time ever to be alive... if you are white and from the Western world.

Flat out shocking to me that you would tell some kid out there reading this board that that statement doesn't apply to them when it quite possibly might. Will always be some level of prejudice and inequality in the world but that's a horrible statement of exclusion, not inclusion.