RealGM 2017 Top 100 List #49 (Wes Unseld)

[Johnlac1]

Reed would be a heckuva center today. One of the best outside shooting big men (considering they didn't have the three ball then) who could score on KAJ or Chamberlain inside, very strong and could play tough defense. I'd have to take him over Unseld who was great for his time, but not quite the def. presence as Reed.

[Outside]

These guys are close, but I'll give Reed the edge because of defense.

Runoff vote: Reed

EDIT: added reasoning below, adapted from prior posts.

Reed was a good defender. He was strong and smart, and he fit in well with an excellent defensive team (the Knicks led the league in opponent scoring three straight seasons starting in 1968-69). But he was part of a good defense, not a defensive anchor like Russell or Thurmond. While not a defensive anchor to build around, he fit in well with a defensive-minded team.

Regarding Unseld defensively, he maximized the effectiveness of his strength, low center of gravity, and massive keister to disrupt opponents, but he was a floor-bound defender.

In the 1975 finals loss to the Warriors, Unseld had good numbers -- 12.3 PPG, 16.8 RPG, 3.5 APG, 52.6 FG%, 1.0 STL, 0.8 BLK. But he was actually outplayed by the Warriors' two-headed center combo of Clifford Ray and George Johnson -- 13.5 PPG, 17.5 RPG, 4.3 APG, 63.2 FG%, 1.6 STL, 4.3 BLK. Ray and Johnson were hardly all-stars, but they were mobile and could jump, two things that Unseld had trouble with. If you tried to set up in one spot in the post, Unseld could use his strength to control you, but most guys learned to avoid that by moving, and in any case, they could jump over him without worry about getting their shot blocked. The 1975 finals are good example of how Unseld had limited impact defensively.

I don't like appearing to bash on Unseld because I like him. Great rebounder, excellent passer, excellent BBIQ, great teammate. Unseld was better in a couple of areas than Reed, but Reed had a more well-balanced game, and defense was definitely an advantage for Reed.

[trex_8063]

I'm leaning slightly toward Unseld, though I don't feel strongly about it and may end up abstaining from the runoff vote. I have them two places apart (in the early-mid 60's) on my own ATL with Unseld being the one in front, though I only recently shuffled them about; ~2 weeks ago it was Reed who was slightly in front.

I certainly feel this is comfortably Reed for peak or best 3-4 year period. But Unseld drubs him in longevity/consistency, and has all that ambiguous intangible impact that is difficult to quantify.
Reed has some of that, too (excellent leadership qualities, solid team defender in an era where we essentially have NO stat-keeping to express this), but Unseld is practically the poster-child for non-boxscore impact.

So idk. If I can comfortably come to a conclusion I'll vote; otherwise I will not.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Willis Reed

Reed has a superstar peak for his era. He is both voted an MVP caliber player or close several more times, but by WS his boxscore is one of the best in the league going by WS while also having value outside of the boxscore due to floor spacing, defense and intangibles. Unseld is one of the toughest players to rate due to his value outside of the boxscore but since Reed has non boxscore value himself, it's hard for me to overcome the statistical difference

[trex_8063]

These guys are close, but I'll give Reed the edge because of defense.

Runoff vote: Reed

Any chance I can draw you out for just a touch more here? For instance, perhaps elaborate on why you think Reed is a significantly better defender than Unseld (who also has a good defensive reputation).

[Outside]

These guys are close, but I'll give Reed the edge because of defense.

Runoff vote: Reed

Any chance I can draw you out for just a touch more here? For instance, perhaps elaborate on why you think Reed is a significantly better defender than Unseld (who also has a good defensive reputation).

Edited my prior post to add my reasoning.

[LA Bird]

Run off vote: Wes Unseld

Reed peaked higher but Unseld had much better longevity to the point where one could consider peak Reed to be more than 2x better and still have Unseld higher for overall career. The Knicks being one of the worst defensive team in the league for a third of Reed's career seems to have been overlooked. Unseld was a great passer throughout his career even when not scoring whereas I think Reed's offensive impact was questionable after his 4 season high efficiency scoring run ended. There are other players with short longevity (Mourning, Harden, Westbrook) who compares favorably to Reed and the MVP/FMVP accolade argument which separated him from those guys doesn't work here since Unseld also won MVP/FMVP.

[pandrade83]

The main cases I see folks posting for Reed are Defense, Peaks & Box Score.

Defense

How do the Reed fans reconcile that the Knicks had pretty bad defense In Reed's first few years? They didn't really get good defensively until Frazier blossomed & they swapped Bellamy for Dave D. It does appear he got better in his later years - their D rating in '73 is better than the gap years of '72 & '74, so it's not like he's bad.

But I fail to see why you automatically give it to him. The Bullets went from league average to strong with Unseld - without changing their core, they went from flat to -3.8. They maintain strong Defensive ratings from there on out.

Peaks

I'll give the peak to Reed for sure. His work in both '69 & '70 is legit impressive. I think a big part of the reason I take Unseld is the superior longevity. So, to be taking Reed here, you have to really like what he did in those 2 years.

Box Score impact

But to think that the box score impact is disparate doesn't quite hold a strong case. I'll reference the VORP/BPM Data I've been quoting for a while now

Unseld hit 5+ scores for both BPM 3 times & VORP twice - that we know of - one of which didn't come in a double digit WS year. If we make the reasonably safe assumption that he hit those scores in ALL of his double digit WS year, that gives him 6 years of a BPM Score of 5+ and 5 years of a VORP Score of 5+ and It's highly likely that if we had RAPM, the metric would've loved him as well.

What's so impressive about that? It's more than any of our run-off candidates from last round - if we assume Reed got there in all double digit WS Seasons.

I'll give you peak - but I think the defense & box score arguments rest on shaky ground.

[SactoKingsFan]

Run-off vote: Wes Unseld

Still not sold on Reed at this point in the project. Unseld didn't peak as high and wasn't an impressive scorer or shot blocker but he brought a lot of non-box score impact to the table and had more high impact seasons than Reed.

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[Joao Saraiva]

runoff vote - West Unseld

I think his longevity is better.

[oldschooled]

Run-off vote - Wes Unseld

Too close too call. Reed w/ the advantage in peak but Wes Unseld got longevity with extended prime to boot.

[penbeast0]

HAving read the arguments of other posters, I will weigh in on this. If the statistical footprint defensively doesn't scream Willis Reed, the offensive advantage he enjoyed isnt' enough to overcome Unseld's longevity and it's not a close call. Having watched them, I don't see Reed's defense being that much better than Wes's though against certain players Reed does have an edge. So, not super strong on this but

runoff vote: Wes Unseld

[trex_8063]

Thru post #52:

Willis Reed - 4 (Dr Positivity, Outside, dhsilv2, Clyde Frazier)
Wes Unseld -8 (pandrade83, Doctor MJ, drza, LABird, Joao Saraiva, SactoKingsFan, oldschooled, penbeast0)

I don't think this result is going to change in the next hour or so (and if I were to weigh in, I'm kinda leaning toward Unseld, too), so I'm calling it for Wes. I'll have the next thread up in a moment.

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[trex_8063]

The main cases I see folks posting for Reed are Defense, Peaks & Box Score.

Defense

How do the Reed fans reconcile that the Knicks had pretty bad defense In Reed's first few years? They didn't really get good defensively until Frazier blossomed & they swapped Bellamy for Dave D. It does appear he got better in his later years - their D rating in '73 is better than the gap years of '72 & '74, so it's not like he's bad.

But I fail to see why you automatically give it to him. The Bullets went from league average to strong with Unseld - without changing their core, they went from flat to -3.8. They maintain strong Defensive ratings from there on out.

I will admit that upon review Unseld's defensive resume looks better than expected; which at a glance can seem a bit of a puzzler.

I mean, he's not a rim protector at all; and his footspeed perhaps doesn't seem sufficient to render him elite in things like pnr defense or versatility.
But I was watching some of the '78 playoffs recently, and what I note is:
*As reputation has it, he's excellent in low-post D: strong, muscles guys away from the box area to catch entry passes far from the hoop (lot of banging into guys in general, as they try to move across the lane or whatev), and bodies up and physically contests (this is a very important aspect in his era in particular, where most franchises were still centered around a low-post threat)
**Is willing to come out and contest mid-range shots.
***Obviously we all know his rebounding numbers, but I note he's not cannibalizing rebounds either; he's boxing out.
****He doesn't take defensive possessions off. He's engaged each time.
*****His lateral speed (this is his 10th season, you'll note) is better than anticipated on a few pnr defensive plays. Still not great; but he's not a lumbering oaf either.

One could wonder if he'd still be an excellent defensive player in a more modern context, but then I recall Chuck Hayes. Hayes was of similar height and build and general athleticism (actually like an inch or so shorter, and perhaps marginally less athletic), played PF/C and wasn't a rim protector at all.......and yet he had a solid defensive impact year after year. Sort of made himself a journeyman NBA career from his defensive acumen. So it's not hard to imagine Unseld doing the same.


I still feel #49 may be marginally high for Unseld; but not as much as I thought previously. His consistency and longevity is fairly impressive, too. And since we shared this for Lanier earlier, I'll just post some with/without data for Unseld (also impressive):

‘69: 57-25 (.695) with
‘70: 50-32 (.610) with
‘71: 40-34 (.541) with, 2-6 (.250) without
‘72: 38-38 (.500) with, 0-6 without
‘73: 51-28 (.646) with, 1-2 (.333) without
‘74: 33-23 (.589) with, 14-12 (.538) without
‘75: 54-19 (.740) with, 6-3 (.667) without
‘76: 45-33 (.577) with, 3-1 (.750) without
‘77: 48-34 (.585) with
‘78: 43-37 (.538) with, 1-1 (.500) without
‘79: 51-26 (.662) with, 3-2 (.600) without
‘80: 39-43 (.476) with
‘81: 27-36 (.429) with, 12-7 (.632) without