Celtics @ Sixers - Preseason Game 2

[HartfordWhalers]

Horford was the 13th best center by rpm last year. It’s not just by score stats that know he isn’t a top 30 player in the league.

Anyone arguing he is top 30 is either trolling, or won’t be able to handle a logical argument to begin with.

Best just ignore the absurdity be it intentional or not.

[Chris76]

What? If Horford defended 3 positions at an All-league level, brought the ball up, and passed the ball like Draymond Green... I'd let the 6 RPG slide..

He’s the best passing center in the game (maybe Marc gasol)
He had ales the ball the ball a lot
He isn’t DPOY level but he is an above average defender

Also rebounds is a flawed stats how many opp. Did he create for others to rebound how many times did he seal off his man so someone like AB could get rebounds

Oh geez. I'm done here. Getting flash backs of Jahlil Okafor discussions.

Okafor noticeably sealed off his man, his positioning looks better.
A change in his defensive value, you didn't expect him to tackle someone?

Tanking may have messed with his effort, now his effort looks promising.

What improvements do you need to change your perception.

18 pts, 8rbds, 4assists, 1.5 blocks. He can do that.

[sixerswillrule]

Can you name 30 players better than Horford for a championship team?

PG: Paul, Curry, Westbrook, Lowry, Conley, Lillard, Walker, Wall, Irving, Thomas, Hill

SG: Harden, Thompson, Beal, McCollum, DeRozan

SF: LeBron, Durant, Kawhi, Butler, Giannis, George, Hayward, Gallinari

PF: Green, Love, Millsap, Davis, Griffin

C: Cousins, Gobert, Gasol, Jokic, Towns, Jordan

That's 35 right there. There are a bunch of others who could be argued over Horford as well.

[Kobblehead]

Amir Johnson and KO are easily replaced by Baynes and Morris which is an upgrade
Hayward is a major upgrade from Crowder
Kyrie is a slight upgrade from IT
Internal development of Brown Rozier and Smart should cover up Bradley
Then add in Tatum wherever
And there you go

2016-2017 plus value players:
Isaiah Thomas - 4.8 VORP
Al Horford - 2.8 VORP
Jae Crowder - 2.1 VORP
Amir Johnson - 1.7 VORP
Marcus Smart - 1.0 VORP
Kelly Olynyk - 1.0 VORP
Avery Bradley - 0.7 VORP

Plus value additions:
Gordon Hayward - 4.0 VORP
Kyrie Irving - 2.9 VORP
Marcus Morris - 1.0 VORP
Aaron Baynes - 0.1 VORP

(-1) plus performing players
(-2.3) net value loss

Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum are not likely to be net positive players next year. Rozier has a slight chance.

[bball4life]

There's a reason a celtics fan is hanging out here so much. His subconscious mind already knows who the next great team in the east will be.

By the way, jaylen brown is a one dimensional scrub. You can wait all you want on him. Tatum may or may not be a decent player. Good luck with that.


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[LloydFree]

He’s the best passing center in the game (maybe Marc gasol)
He had ales the ball the ball a lot
He isn’t DPOY level but he is an above average defender

Also rebounds is a flawed stats how many opp. Did he create for others to rebound how many times did he seal off his man so someone like AB could get rebounds

Oh geez. I'm done here. Getting flash backs of Jahlil Okafor discussions.

Alright how about this
Can you name 30 players better than Horford for a championship team?

I could probably name 40 players that I would take over him, but it wouldn't change your mind because you're letting your fandom get in the way of logic. There are guys that aren't even in consideration for the All-star teams, that I'd rather have than Horford.

Rather than make a whole list, how about this: I'd take every single player that made the All-star teams last year, plus Gobert, Towns, Lillard, Conley and Whiteside. There. That's 30. Happy?
Purposely, no mention of any 76ers. No mention of any young, up-and-comers like Jokic, Porzingis, Miles Turner, Booker, Russell, Aaron Gordon or Gary Harris.

[Kobblehead]

Robert Covington - 1.8 VORP
Amir Johnson - 1.7 VORP
J.J. Redick - 1.1 VORP
Richaun Holmes - 1.1 VORP
Joel Embiid - 1.0 VORP
Justin Anderson - 0.1 VORP

Sixers have just as much established depth as Boston. That's not even including two probable plus performers in Ben Simmons and Dario Saric.

[Unbreakable99]

Robert Covington - 1.8 VORP
Amir Johnson - 1.7 VORP
J.J. Redick - 1.1 VORP
Richaun Holmes - 1.1 VORP
Joel Embiid - 1.0 VORP
Justin Anderson - 0.1 VORP

Sixers have just as much established depth as Boston. That's not even including two probable plus performers in Ben Simmons and Dario Saric.

Wait. Redick and HOLMES had a higher VORP than Embiid? Something’s not right.

[Kobblehead]

VORP is a cumulative stat. Embiid played just under 800 minutes.

Had he had a normal workload, he would have had a VORP north of 3.

[Wilfried]

VORP is not the best stat to determine a players value

Thing with Boston fans now is, they all are calculating (it's not that easy) by comparing (subtracting) old and new players that they became a better team.

They also are factoring in, very uncertain, increased value of rookies and unproven players (Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Baynes).

Last, they think Marcus Morris is as good as Crowder.

All that is indeed very necessary to believe, because the simple fact is that Irving - Hayward and Horford is not good enough to win a title, and the fans realize that too. Because of the simple fact that Hayward and Horford are all-stars, not superstars.

It's not good enough to compete with Cavaliers (yet), and certainly not good enough to compete with GS, Houston or OKC.

To me, you can do a little (lazy) calculation like
Hayward > Bradley
Irving > IT
Morris + Tatum > Crowder
...

But fact is:
They gave up a lot of defensive presence (and they were already bad), they gave up a very good frontcourt player (and think Morris is going to be as good) and they gave up a very nice pick.

Just to become not so much better.

[ivysixer2000]

Hayward last year made the All star team in the WEST and imo he’s a legit 2nd piece on a contender
Horford made everyone around him better check the shooting splits for IT AB and JC with him on vs off the court
There is a reason why AB JC IT all had career years

Man, go ahead with those on/off splits. Ainge gave away Jae Crowder, and he had the best on/off splits of everybody on the team.

Take it from someone who watched Iverson win with Eric Snow, George Lynch and Aaron Mckie. Giving away Crowder and Bradley in order to pay a very borderline All-star 30 million, will change the entire culture of the team and it's going to be a longer adjustment than people think... Unless Brad Stevens is legitimately the best coach in the league.

Yet standard stats work?
Now I’m not saying Horford is a top 20 player but he is in that top 30 range and imo is a 3rd best player on a champions level team.
I kinda see him as a draymond green type can handle the ball one of the best passers for a center can stretch the floor and can create good looks for everyone which is very valuable for a team

Can't believe I wasted this much time reading this thread.

Anyway, Green is the 4th best player on his championship team. Horford would start for GS, barely. I don't think Hortford would start for the Cavs over Love right now. Dude, he's just not that good and hes overpaid.

Get over it.

[Stanford]

Robert Covington - 1.8 VORP
Amir Johnson - 1.7 VORP
J.J. Redick - 1.1 VORP
Richaun Holmes - 1.1 VORP
Joel Embiid - 1.0 VORP
Justin Anderson - 0.1 VORP

Sixers have just as much established depth as Boston. That's not even including two probable plus performers in Ben Simmons and Dario Saric.

Wait. Redick and HOLMES had a higher VORP than Embiid? Something’s not right.

He played 31 games and wasn't efficient offensively, at least to start the year.

[Ericb5]

VORP is not the best stat to determine a players value

Thing with Boston fans now is, they all are calculating (it's not that easy) by comparing (subtracting) old and new players that they became a better team.

They also are factoring in, very uncertain, increased value of rookies and unproven players (Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Baynes).

Last, they think Marcus Morris is as good as Crowder.

All that is indeed very necessary to believe, because the simple fact is that Irving - Hayward and Horford is not good enough to win a title, and the fans realize that too. Because of the simple fact that Hayward and Horford are all-stars, not superstars.

It's not good enough to compete with Cavaliers (yet), and certainly not good enough to compete with GS, Houston or OKC.

To me, you can do a little (lazy) calculation like
Hayward > Bradley
Irving > IT
Morris + Tatum > Crowder
...

But fact is:
They gave up a lot of defensive presence (and they were already bad), they gave up a very good frontcourt player (and think Morris is going to be as good) and they gave up a very nice pick.

Just to become not so much better.

The Celtics had a historic opportunity a couple years ago, before they used their cap space on Horford and Hayward, or drafted Brown or Tatum. They were in a position to get a superstar through free agency or the draft.

Now that we are mostly out the other end of that process, they clearly failed to accomplish it. They have Brown and Tatum in the fold now that theoretically could grow into stars, but while they did acquire a lot of talent, they didn’t find a superstar.

They let players like Durant, George, Cousins, and Paul change teams, but didn’t make a serious effort at any of them.

Cousins is the most perplexing one to me. Why didn’t they go for him?

He was traded for peanuts essentially and he is a real superstar. A flawed superstar, but a legitimate one.

I don’t have any anti Celtic feelings or bias. I’m happy to have them become as good as they can become, but I look back on the results of their opportunity as largely disappointing.

Two non franchise level draft picks, and two expensive allstar level free agents, and a slight upgrade from IT to Irving isn’t enough. They have a terrific coach, and they are still pretty young though.




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[Gant]

It was reported last winter that the Celtics never wanted Cousins, no doubt for personality reasons.

They did go hard after Durant during free agency and George at least a couple of times. They ended up with Irving. The much older Paul wouldn't make sense.

They picked up Horford for nothing, and Hayward for giving up Olynyk and trading Bradley for Morris.

Their young guys are better than is speculated in this thread. Their vets are much better.

Boston's greatest weakness last season, rebounding, will be greatly improved this year. They're effectively bigger as they've added height and versatility at all the smaller spots, and are much stronger physically. They're really in a great position for years to come as LeBron either leaves the East next summer or finally peaks and diminishes.


Here's what the Celtics have done in recent years, with plenty of ammo left to make the next big move:

Read on Twitter

[LordCovington33]

It was reported last winter that the Celtics never wanted Cousins, no doubt for personality reasons.

They did go hard after Durant during free agency and George at least a couple of times. They ended up with Irving. The much older Paul wouldn't make sense.

They picked up Horford for nothing, and Hayward for giving up Olynyk and trading Bradley for Morris.

Their young guys are better than is speculated in this thread. Their vets are much better.

Boston's greatest weakness last season, rebounding, will be greatly improved this year. They're effectively bigger as they've added height and versatility at all the smaller spots, and are much stronger physically. They're really in a great position for years to come as LeBron either leaves the East next summer or finally peaks and diminishes.


Here's what the Celtics have done in recent years, with plenty of ammo left to make the next big move:

Read on Twitter

I hope Aron does well in his new situation. Always love seeing Aussies do well, even if playing for you guys.

[Gant]

It was reported last winter that the Celtics never wanted Cousins, no doubt for personality reasons.

They did go hard after Durant during free agency and George at least a couple of times. They ended up with Irving. The much older Paul wouldn't make sense.

They picked up Horford for nothing, and Hayward for giving up Olynyk and trading Bradley for Morris.

Their young guys are better than is speculated in this thread. Their vets are much better.

Boston's greatest weakness last season, rebounding, will be greatly improved this year. They're effectively bigger as they've added height and versatility at all the smaller spots, and are much stronger physically. They're really in a great position for years to come as LeBron either leaves the East next summer or finally peaks and diminishes.


Here's what the Celtics have done in recent years, with plenty of ammo left to make the next big move:

Read on Twitter

I hope Aron does well in his new situation. Always love seeing Aussies do well, even if playing for you guys.

Baynes has looked wonderful so far. They were so soft in the frontcourt the past couple of years; that guy's like rain in the desert. He didn't start against Philly, but he did in the first exhibition against Charlotte and just was so good against Howard and blending with the first unit. Really impressive.

He made a very smart move taking less money for one year.

[Kobblehead]

Their young guys are better than is speculated in this thread.

How so? Jaylen Brown was pretty awful at Cal as a freshman and was a significantly negative performer as a rookie. Expecting him to make a huge leap in year two is far-fetched. At his current development trajectory, you're probably looking at year 3 (optimistic) or year 4 (more probable) before he's a plus performer.

Jayson Tatum had a medicore impact at Duke as a freshman against <22 year olds. Now he's going to be playing against men. He's just as likely to be pitiful as a rookie as Brandon Ingram was in Los Angeles this year.

The only young player on your roster that I think is due to break into being a positive asset on the court is Terry Rozier. Whos' impact will probably be minimum, anyway.

[ajones9219]

Their young guys are better than is speculated in this thread.

How so? Jaylen Brown was pretty awful at Cal as a freshman and was a significantly negative performer as a rookie. Expecting him to make a huge leap in year two is far-fetched. At his current development trajectory, you're probably looking at year 3 (optimistic) or year 4 (more probable) before he's a plus performer.

Jayson Tatum had a medicore impact at Duke as a freshman against <22 year olds. Now he's going to be playing against men. He's just as likely to be pitiful as a rookie as Brandon Ingram was in Los Angeles this year.

The only young player on your roster that I think is due to break into being a positive asset on the court is Terry Rozier. Whos' impact will probably be minimum, anyway.

Brown showed more than a few flashes of start potential last season and Tatum was injured. Once he healed up he beasted for his last few months. I know this is a Sixers board but ignoring either part just shows ignorance to both players (I don't believe you're trolling just didn't watch enough of either player)

[Ericb5]

It was reported last winter that the Celtics never wanted Cousins, no doubt for personality reasons.

They did go hard after Durant during free agency and George at least a couple of times. They ended up with Irving. The much older Paul wouldn't make sense.

They picked up Horford for nothing, and Hayward for giving up Olynyk and trading Bradley for Morris.

Their young guys are better than is speculated in this thread. Their vets are much better.

Boston's greatest weakness last season, rebounding, will be greatly improved this year. They're effectively bigger as they've added height and versatility at all the smaller spots, and are much stronger physically. They're really in a great position for years to come as LeBron either leaves the East next summer or finally peaks and diminishes.


Here's what the Celtics have done in recent years, with plenty of ammo left to make the next big move:

Read on Twitter

The Celtics didn’t get Horford for nothing. They got him up for max salary space.

That’s my point. They decided to spend their resources in a way that didn’t result in a superstar while multiple superstars changed teams.

I’m a big Ainge fan actually, but he blew it. He had tremendous salary flexibility, and draft assets and he didn’t produce a superstar out of it.




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[LordCovington33]

Their young guys are better than is speculated in this thread.

How so? Jaylen Brown was pretty awful at Cal as a freshman and was a significantly negative performer as a rookie. Expecting him to make a huge leap in year two is far-fetched. At his current development trajectory, you're probably looking at year 3 (optimistic) or year 4 (more probable) before he's a plus performer.

Jayson Tatum had a medicore impact at Duke as a freshman against <22 year olds. Now he's going to be playing against men. He's just as likely to be pitiful as a rookie as Brandon Ingram was in Los Angeles this year.

The only young player on your roster that I think is due to break into being a positive asset on the court is Terry Rozier. Whos' impact will probably be minimum, anyway.

Brown showed more than a few flashes of start potential last season and Tatum was injured. Once he healed up he beasted for his last few months. I know this is a Sixers board but ignoring either part just shows ignorance to both players (I don't believe you're trolling just didn't watch enough of either player)

So, were you high on Tatum before the 1-3 trade? Or, are you only high on him now that he is on your roster?