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The Jabari Discussion Thread - Back 2/2

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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#161 » by MartyConlonOnTheRun » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:52 pm

JayMKE wrote:
LUKE23 wrote:Sixers had a the net rating of a 51 win team with Embiid on the court, that's without Simmons/Fultz. I get he has MASSIVE injury concerns, but he's a max player impact guy for sure when he's on the court moving forward. That's why saying, "this lays the groundwork for Jabari's deal" is dumb. Parker has never touched that.


You're basing this on the 31 games the Embiid has played in like the last 3 years, to say Jabari doesn't deserve to get paid but Embiid does makes zero sense. Think about the crippling effect Embiid never being healthy could have on Philly, far far worse than how Jabari not turning out would mean for us. Jabari should regain his health unless there are red flags we don't know about, Embiid is going to have chronic issues his whole career just like Bogut if he's that lucky. A healthy Jabari is an easy re-sign, his value would exceed his contract and there would be no shortage of takers for a skilled young scorer like him. People scoff at the idea of him just being another Melo as if Melo wasn't one of the biggest stars of the last 15 years, put Jabari's brain in Melo's and I think his career would of been a lot different.

I think he is saying emiid could earn that salary. Small possibility but at least it's there. It's the same argument we always have with Jabari but even with him healthy I would feel really nervous giving him that contract.

Also I don't get how parkers health is better than embiids. I understand embiid more of a ticking time but could be fully healthy. Parker is different where I think some of his athleticism has already been robbed. I think his reinjury rate is less than embiid but how is 2 acl tears in the same knee not a red flag? He's the same guy (body weight, playing style) than ruptured his knee twice.
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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#162 » by emunney » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:54 pm

I don't know how to quantify the difference between Jabari's and Embiid's injury risks but it seems to me that they are both prohibitively bad.
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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#163 » by SirChurros » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:01 pm

Any time you have to preface something by saying, "he's worth it if he can stay healthy," you're approaching the argument wrong.
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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#164 » by DingleJerry » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:01 pm

JayMKE wrote:
LUKE23 wrote:Sixers had a the net rating of a 51 win team with Embiid on the court, that's without Simmons/Fultz. I get he has MASSIVE injury concerns, but he's a max player impact guy for sure when he's on the court moving forward. That's why saying, "this lays the groundwork for Jabari's deal" is dumb. Parker has never touched that.


You're basing this on the 31 games the Embiid has played in like the last 3 years, to say Jabari doesn't deserve to get paid but Embiid does makes zero sense. Think about the crippling effect Embiid never being healthy could have on Philly, far far worse than how Jabari not turning out would mean for us. Jabari should regain his health unless there are red flags we don't know about, Embiid is going to have chronic issues his whole career just like Bogut if he's that lucky. A healthy Jabari is an easy re-sign, his value would exceed his contract and there would be no shortage of takers for a skilled young scorer like him. People scoff at the idea of him just being another Melo as if Melo wasn't one of the biggest stars of the last 15 years, put Jabari's brain in Melo's and I think his career would of been a lot different.


Feel like this is comparing the two through homer glasses. Why would Jabari at the same contract be any less of a hinderance if he were to flop or chronically be injured? I agree Embiid for sure looks like he'll be a constant risk but how is Jabari not after reading about the likelihood of re-injury. Jabari should regain his health but Embiid can't, again I don't see why one is more likely than the other. He will have chronic issues, but Jabari won't, why.

Viewing it from the other way is that Jabari has had probably the worst injury a bball player can have, whereas Embiid hasn't had one at that level. It's just that it's one after the other with him. And the trump card on why it makes sense to pay Embiid over Jabari (if you were picking, I'm not saying I'd do either) is that he's simply a drastically better player. He's top 10 player already when he plays, they're on complete different levels and it's not even close. So in any risk/reward calculation the reward is drastically higher for Embiid. But of course that calculation changes if we're paying Jabari 12 per year and they're paying 30 but the vibe of the post it seemed we're talking max contracts for both.

ETA: one thing to add for Embiid. Even if he does have to skip back to backs and best case is say a 65 per game year guy, the NBA is all about playoffs. Once the playoffs come he can play every game with all the days off, that's where it all matters anyway.
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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#165 » by JayMKE » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:04 pm

Jabari injured his knee two times in singular events whereas Embiid has chronic degenerative issues. Jabari's injured knee should heal completely afaik, what he loses from the injury is yet to be seen but if his first comeback is any indication then I don't expect him to all the sudden turn into a rim grazing plodder. Embiid is doubtfully ever going to be a healthy player long term, I'm thinking Bogut health wise best case scenario.
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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#166 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:09 pm

emunney wrote:I don't know how to quantify the difference between Jabari's and Embiid's injury risks but it seems to me that they are both prohibitively bad.


embiid has never been healthy. Jabari had been. imo look at games played since they were drafted to quantify the difference.
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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#167 » by DingleJerry » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:21 pm

JayMKE wrote:Jabari injured his knee two times in singular events whereas Embiid has chronic degenerative issues. Jabari's injured knee should heal completely afaik, what he loses from the injury is yet to be seen but if his first comeback is any indication then I don't expect him to all the sudden turn into a rim grazing plodder. Embiid is doubtfully ever going to be a healthy player long term, I'm thinking Bogut health wise best case scenario.


All the research on twice torn ACLs that we've seen basically say it's a chronic issue as well and very likely to happen again. Same as Embiid. I just can't beleive people on this board are still acting like torn ACLs are no big deal and you can just come back healthy like it's nothing. If I remember right Jabari also broke a foot in HS. Embiid's are of the top of my head two foots, a back, and a knee bruise. Of course we're aware of foot problems being a bad thing for big guys so that's concerning for sure, but then you remember Jabari had one too so. But you've also seen players all over the league come back from everything that Embiid has had with no issues, it's just he's had them all. Basically no one has ever successfully come back from two torn ACLs. I think they're both colossally huge risks and would call it a toss up, no way I could say one is clearly different or one makes 'zero sense' over the other or whatever phrased was used.

Still I'm waiting for the details to come out on Embiid's contract and how hopefully we can use some kind of similar clauses to make the Jabari deal safer than we fear it will be.
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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#168 » by emunney » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:22 pm

JayMKE wrote:Jabari injured his knee two times in singular events whereas Embiid has chronic degenerative issues. Jabari's injured knee should heal completely afaik, what he loses from the injury is yet to be seen but if his first comeback is any indication then I don't expect him to all the sudden turn into a rim grazing plodder. Embiid is doubtfully ever going to be a healthy player long term, I'm thinking Bogut health wise best case scenario.


Given that the rate incidence for a 2nd ACL injury after a first is much higher than the incidence of the 1st, and also given that both of these injuries were incurred by a nearly identical situation, it seems naive to me to think that these are two isolated incidents.

These are two major surgeries. You aren't just the same after either one of them. He's had grafts harvested. The structures from which those were taken are irrevocably altered. We're not talking about a broken leg that you just set and it heals and you move forward. This injury and surgery has ramifications. Twice on the same leg? I doubt the increase in complexity is linear.
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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#169 » by emunney » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:24 pm

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
emunney wrote:I don't know how to quantify the difference between Jabari's and Embiid's injury risks but it seems to me that they are both prohibitively bad.


embiid has never been healthy. Jabari had been. imo look at games played since they were drafted to quantify the difference.


I don't think that's adequate.
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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#170 » by chonestown » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:29 pm

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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#171 » by Lippo » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:33 pm

If Jabari plays this year or next on a QO, how scary would that be to drive down the middle again. Can you imagine if he goes down a 3rd time, the ramifications... I wouldn't have the balls to not sign a 5/100m right now if offered, even if the last 2 years were team options.
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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#172 » by German Athens » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:36 pm

Would you guys trade jabari for other broken goods in burks and exum?

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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#173 » by DingleJerry » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:37 pm

Lippo wrote:If Jabari plays on the QO, how scary would that be to drive down the middle again. Can you imagine if he goes down a 3rd time, the ramifications... I wouldn't have the balls to not sign a 5/100m right now if offered, even if the last 2 years were team options.


Exactly, I wouldn't have the balls at the deadline coming up soon to turn down 4/40 if that's all the Bucks are offering.
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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#174 » by JayMKE » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:39 pm

I get it being more likely to suffer the same injury after being injured before but how likely is a person to tear their ACL 3 times on the same knee? I feel like it would of been worse if he had torn the other ACL, maybe that's incorrect thinking I don't know. It being pretty much the same move that gave him first injury I think lends credence to it being a freak occurrence rather than inevitable because it really was identical. We'll have to wait and see I guess, I wouldn't resign Jabari unless I was confident he could come back 100%. Sucks that we're going to have so little time to evaluate his return before having to decide what to do with him but I'd go down with the ship before dumping him for trash.
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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#175 » by raferfenix » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:44 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:Horst on NBA radio earlier this morning said Jabari could be back as early at late January. Rehab going very well.


Hoping this isn't a situation like when we rushed Michael Redd back from injury.

Cooler heads should prevail there though since our team isn't remotely as reliant on Jabari like we were Redd.

Cautiously taking this as good news.

But Parker and the Bucks both have so much money on the line that it's worth keeping a close eye on what transpires either way.
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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#176 » by Lippo » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:49 pm

Lippo wrote:If Jabari plays this year or next on a QO, how scary would that be to drive down the middle again. Can you imagine if he goes down a 3rd time, the ramifications... I wouldn't have the balls to not sign a 5/100m right now if offered, even if the last 2 years were team options.


He gets a 3rd injury and he is earning Beasley contracts for the next 10 years. Might be what these agents need to see to start looking out for the clients best interest instead on all the greed, 60 mil is more than enough to live a great life, plus your kids and your kids kids, etc....
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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#177 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:56 pm

emunney wrote:
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
emunney wrote:I don't know how to quantify the difference between Jabari's and Embiid's injury risks but it seems to me that they are both prohibitively bad.


embiid has never been healthy. Jabari had been. imo look at games played since they were drafted to quantify the difference.


I don't think that's adequate.


maybe not for a full assessment but I think its pretty obvious that the guy who poses the worst risk is the big guy who in 4 years literally hasn't played but 31 games and STILL wasn't ready to play over the course of this last full offseason. the guy may literally never play 82 games TOTAL in his entire career. there is a precedent for bigs with back and foot issues that leads someone to think this way.

but there is a very good possibility that Jabari could get multiple season in before a reinjury. and he could eventually injure it 2 more times and still play full seasons around that before hes done. seasons and rehab seasons and rehab. hes that much of an athletic freak and everytime he sits the rest of his healthy body rests. so that much i feel certain about. he will be around the league for a long time as it relates to his next contract. its just the 10+ year and 700+ game kind of career that has me worried.
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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#178 » by Lippo » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:35 pm

Lets just make him wear 2 of these

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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#179 » by Ron Swanson » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:38 pm

If Stone Cold Steve Austin could do it, so can Jabari.
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Re: Jabari Thread - Rehab, Game, Contract 

Post#180 » by Lippo » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:51 pm

I mean would you want to jump at/near a guy wearing 2 of those and risk banging knees with him?

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