The Jabari Discussion Thread - Back 2/2

[ReasonablySober]

It's the principle
why is Giannis leaving money on the table to help the team but Jabari has to snatch every dollar he can? Just bad form.

And if he was healthy what would he be asking for then? Prima nocta?

Well Giannis did it for the precise reason of being able to pay others to build a team around him

LOL no. You had it right eventually. He did it to get to FA earlier.

[DingleJerry]

It's the principle
why is Giannis leaving money on the table to help the team but Jabari has to snatch every dollar he can? Just bad form.

And if he was healthy what would he be asking for then? Prima nocta?

Well Giannis did it for the precise reason of being able to pay others to build a team around him

LOL no. You had it right eventually. He did it to get to FA earlier.

Whichever reason was more important, he still has no leg to stand on to be offended by the team if someone gets more than him. He knows darn well if he'd have asked for max they'd have done it. It was his choice.

Though I suppose I could see an argument that he could be a bit bitter at Jabari for not being flexible to help the team out given the situation. Still, I think among the NBA fraternity they pretty much have the attitude that everyone has the right to get their money however they can.

[M-C-G]

Well Giannis did it for the precise reason of being able to pay others to build a team around him

LOL no. You had it right eventually. He did it to get to FA earlier.

Whichever reason was more important, he still has no leg to stand on to be offended by the team if someone gets more than him. He knows darn well if he'd have asked for max they'd have done it. It was his choice.

Though I suppose I could see an argument that he could be a bit bitter at Jabari for not being flexible to help the team out given the situation. Still, I think among the NBA fraternity they pretty much have the attitude that everyone has the right to get their money however they can.

I wouldn't over think this. If Giannis really cares about the money, then he knows his next contract is going to be like a 250M dollar deal and earning top dollar on this contract isn't as important as simply getting to the next contract. I do think it was stupid that we nickled him on it, but I am very certain he got the exact contract he wanted out of this deal.

As for Jabari, I'm paying him more if I have to get it to be a three year deal with a team option. People asked the question who is most likely to be our third star assuming Middleton is considered our second and keeping Jabari gives you two chances at it, one in Thon and one in Jabari.

Your other option is using Jabari to clear ALL the salary, but if you were going to do that, we should have just gone after Paul George and used everything to try and convince him to stay. That ship has obviously sailed. I'm not sure what other free agent we would be able to land that would give us more than what I think Jabari will, that will reasonably join us here.

[jute2003]

Exum is one knee away from multiple knees. And throw in a bung shoulder.

Bung shoulder sounds like a pain in the ass

[paulpressey25]

Went to the SOB archives re Jabari from the other thread. Figuring these takes from June 18, 2014 are relevant. I think David Locke nailed this one. Just nailed it.

http://saveourbucks.com/chad-ford-analysis-sob-draft-party/

David Locke: “I’ve done my draft breakdown on Jabari, I think he’ll score 20 points game in the NBA, and be the first guy to do it, and there are not many guys who can score 20 points a game, so I hope people understand exactly what I mean. I think he can really score……. I was left wanting more Chad. I watched him and I kept feeling a ‘but’ statement. I finally figured (it) out by the end. I felt as though it’s not the defense thing everyone else talks about. I never saw him catch and swing a pass. I never saw him make the play to help a teammate. I actually thought his rebounding was really pretty poor if he was ever in any traffic. I was concerned by the time I was done that he was Glenn Robinson. That he’ll score twenty points a game in the NBA and not help you win. Fair or unfair?

Chad Ford: “I think it’s pretty fair. That’s the comp I’ve been using all year, is that Glenn Robinson, and I know there are younger NBA fans that probably don’t remember the ‘Big Dog’ but coming out of college the Big Dog was the consensus number one pick in the draft, went ahead I believe of Grant Hill and Jason Kidd in the year he came out, and he was a scorer and Jabari is going to be a scorer, because he can score in multiple ways. If the defense tries to take away one thing from him, he has other ways to score, and he’s aggressive, he goes out there and he looks for his shot…..and I think he’ll go hard that way. But I think that he’s a bit one-dimensional……….and I have concerns defensively about him.

[LUKE23]

Four days until the extension deadline. If the Bucks do sign him, guessing it's a pretty huge overpay.

[coolhandluke121]

Went to the SOB archives re Jabari from the other thread. Figuring these takes from June 18, 2014 are relevant. I think David Locke nailed this one. Just nailed it.

http://saveourbucks.com/chad-ford-analysis-sob-draft-party/

David Locke: “I’ve done my draft breakdown on Jabari, I think he’ll score 20 points game in the NBA, and be the first guy to do it, and there are not many guys who can score 20 points a game, so I hope people understand exactly what I mean. I think he can really score……. I was left wanting more Chad. I watched him and I kept feeling a ‘but’ statement. I finally figured (it) out by the end. I felt as though it’s not the defense thing everyone else talks about. I never saw him catch and swing a pass. I never saw him make the play to help a teammate. I actually thought his rebounding was really pretty poor if he was ever in any traffic. I was concerned by the time I was done that he was Glenn Robinson. That he’ll score twenty points a game in the NBA and not help you win. Fair or unfair?

Chad Ford: “I think it’s pretty fair. That’s the comp I’ve been using all year, is that Glenn Robinson, and I know there are younger NBA fans that probably don’t remember the ‘Big Dog’ but coming out of college the Big Dog was the consensus number one pick in the draft, went ahead I believe of Grant Hill and Jason Kidd in the year he came out, and he was a scorer and Jabari is going to be a scorer, because he can score in multiple ways. If the defense tries to take away one thing from him, he has other ways to score, and he’s aggressive, he goes out there and he looks for his shot…..and I think he’ll go hard that way. But I think that he’s a bit one-dimensional……….and I have concerns defensively about him.

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[JimmyTheKid]

Went to the SOB archives re Jabari from the other thread. Figuring these takes from June 18, 2014 are relevant. I think David Locke nailed this one. Just nailed it.

http://saveourbucks.com/chad-ford-analysis-sob-draft-party/

David Locke: “I’ve done my draft breakdown on Jabari, I think he’ll score 20 points game in the NBA, and be the first guy to do it, and there are not many guys who can score 20 points a game, so I hope people understand exactly what I mean. I think he can really score……. I was left wanting more Chad. I watched him and I kept feeling a ‘but’ statement. I finally figured (it) out by the end. I felt as though it’s not the defense thing everyone else talks about. I never saw him catch and swing a pass. I never saw him make the play to help a teammate. I actually thought his rebounding was really pretty poor if he was ever in any traffic. I was concerned by the time I was done that he was Glenn Robinson. That he’ll score twenty points a game in the NBA and not help you win. Fair or unfair?

Chad Ford: “I think it’s pretty fair. That’s the comp I’ve been using all year, is that Glenn Robinson, and I know there are younger NBA fans that probably don’t remember the ‘Big Dog’ but coming out of college the Big Dog was the consensus number one pick in the draft, went ahead I believe of Grant Hill and Jason Kidd in the year he came out, and he was a scorer and Jabari is going to be a scorer, because he can score in multiple ways. If the defense tries to take away one thing from him, he has other ways to score, and he’s aggressive, he goes out there and he looks for his shot…..and I think he’ll go hard that way. But I think that he’s a bit one-dimensional……….and I have concerns defensively about him.

"Nailed it?" Nah. Maybe that was the case at Duke, but one of the more unexpected developments of Jabari's game was not only his willingness to make plays for his teammates, but the relative ease at which he did so. Maybe it was part of his DNA coming in, maybe it was taking Kidd's coaching to heart, or a combination of both. Either way, the bolded line from above hasn't applied to Jabari's NBA career thus far.

I've pretty much said all I can regarding this situation for Jabari and the Bucks. As has been the case since the second torn ACL, its a lose-lose. If you pay him and he gets hurt, or isn't the same player, its a huge step back for the organization. You trade him for pennies on the dollar and watch him stay relatively healthy and become the efficient, 22-25ppg human highlight reel for a different team and its a huge step back for the organization. You pay him, he stays relatively healthy, becomes the efficient 22-25ppg human highlight reel, but doesn't really improve his rebounding or defense, and many will view the signing as a f*** up. Ok, so lose-lose-lose. Ugh. Just another day in the life of a Bucks fan.

[H2tObes]

I don't think a Big Dog comparison is "nailing" Jabari, before he went down we where talking about scoring titles in his future. He also isn't a selfish offensive player. At the end of the day the real issue with Jabari is the knees

[Ron Swanson]

I don't think any of this stuff is surprising in hindsight. Even the top prospects are always nit-picked to pieces and everyone knew that Jabari was a dynamic score-first type guy who lacked defensive tools. Look at Ford's pre-draft notes on Wiggins and he's about as off-base as you can get 3 years later.

The disconnect with me is that the main criticism has always revolved around him being viewed as some finished product (aka he'll never develop play-making skills or passable defense) beyond what he currently is. ACL or not.

[coolhandluke121]

The disconnect with me is that the main criticism has always revolved around him being viewed as some finished product (aka he'll never develop play-making skills or passable defense) beyond what he currently is. ACL or not.

It's not that he won't improve. It's that his supporters seem to think he's already pretty good so he will be really good, whereas his critics think he's been pretty bad and therefore will improve to being a little above neutral. He's been a net negative player most of his career, and only crossed into a slight positive when he hit 50% of his 3's in a totally unsustainable 6-week stretch reminiscent of Charlie Villanueva's hot streak from 3 in the last year of his rookie deal.

[H2tObes]

Yeah he just got lucky, 20% 3PT shooter at best. He should ask Giannis for tips. Very silly of Jabari to peak at 21

[coolhandluke121]

I don't think a Big Dog comparison is "nailing" Jabari, before he went down we where talking about scoring titles in his future. He also isn't a selfish offensive player. At the end of the day the real issue with Jabari is the knees

Is it though? How selfish do you have to be to want a max contract in his situation? How much does he do to help any other player on the team? An occasional pass doesn't make up for abject neglect of all the other little things you have to do in order to be an overall positive contributor. Cinematographer showed that literally ever other player on the team was significantly worse when playing with Jabari compared to playing without him, both on offense and on defense. The team has completely transformed into a much better team both times he got hurt. Compare that to a guy like LRMAM in his first 3 years, who literally had no offensive talent whatsoever and yet instantly transformed the Bucks into a much better team every time he stepped on the court. Selfishness isn't just lack of passing; it's lack of being aware of any way you can help the team when there's no imminent chance of you getting the ball and having the offense revolve around you. He never boxes out or sets good screens, never really facilitates which is a different skill from passing to an open man, plays literally some of the worst off-ball defense in the history of the NBA, and can hardly even be bothered so shed his extra body fat and keep it off. And now he wants the max. GTFO, seriously. That's selfish.

[H2tObes]

I am not engaging in Jabari discussion with you. We've done this 50x before and it never goes anywhere because you thought Jabari was peaking at 21

[Ron Swanson]

The disconnect with me is that the main criticism has always revolved around him being viewed as some finished product (aka he'll never develop play-making skills or passable defense) beyond what he currently is. ACL or not.

It's not that he won't improve. It's that his supporters seem to think he's already pretty good so he will be really good, whereas his critics think he's been pretty bad and therefore will improve to being a little above neutral. He's been a net negative player most of his career, and only crossed into a slight positive when he hit 50% of his 3's in a totally unsustainable 6-week stretch reminiscent of Charlie Villanueva's hot streak from 3 in the last year of his rookie deal.

"Jabari will never be anything more than a PPGZZZ defensive sieve" has pretty much been your schtick since Day 1. I don't see the point in arguing with you about it anymore. Yeah, he was already "pretty good" for a 21-year old player relative to most other 21-year old NBA players in recent memory. If we can't agree on that there's nothing we can agree on.

[DingleJerry]

Went to the SOB archives re Jabari from the other thread. Figuring these takes from June 18, 2014 are relevant. I think David Locke nailed this one. Just nailed it.

http://saveourbucks.com/chad-ford-analysis-sob-draft-party/

David Locke: “I’ve done my draft breakdown on Jabari, I think he’ll score 20 points game in the NBA, and be the first guy to do it, and there are not many guys who can score 20 points a game, so I hope people understand exactly what I mean. I think he can really score……. I was left wanting more Chad. I watched him and I kept feeling a ‘but’ statement. I finally figured (it) out by the end. I felt as though it’s not the defense thing everyone else talks about. I never saw him catch and swing a pass. I never saw him make the play to help a teammate. I actually thought his rebounding was really pretty poor if he was ever in any traffic. I was concerned by the time I was done that he was Glenn Robinson. That he’ll score twenty points a game in the NBA and not help you win. Fair or unfair?

Chad Ford: “I think it’s pretty fair. That’s the comp I’ve been using all year, is that Glenn Robinson, and I know there are younger NBA fans that probably don’t remember the ‘Big Dog’ but coming out of college the Big Dog was the consensus number one pick in the draft, went ahead I believe of Grant Hill and Jason Kidd in the year he came out, and he was a scorer and Jabari is going to be a scorer, because he can score in multiple ways. If the defense tries to take away one thing from him, he has other ways to score, and he’s aggressive, he goes out there and he looks for his shot…..and I think he’ll go hard that way. But I think that he’s a bit one-dimensional……….and I have concerns defensively about him.

"Nailed it?" Nah. Maybe that was the case at Duke, but one of the more unexpected developments of Jabari's game was not only his willingness to make plays for his teammates, but the relative ease at which he did so. Maybe it was part of his DNA coming in, maybe it was taking Kidd's coaching to heart, or a combination of both. Either way, the bolded line from above hasn't applied to Jabari's NBA career thus far.

I've pretty much said all I can regarding this situation for Jabari and the Bucks. As has been the case since the second torn ACL, its a lose-lose. If you pay him and he gets hurt, or isn't the same player, its a huge step back for the organization. You trade him for pennies on the dollar and watch him stay relatively healthy and become the efficient, 22-25ppg human highlight reel for a different team and its a huge step back for the organization. You pay him, he stays relatively healthy, becomes the efficient 22-25ppg human highlight reel, but doesn't really improve his rebounding or defense, and many will view the signing as a f*** up. Ok, so lose-lose-lose. Ugh. Just another day in the life of a Bucks fan.

Generally agree with your overall post. To the bolded point, while it woudl be frustrating to watch I also think there is a win win scenario. Yes, you'd be frustrated you didn't have him. But the trade route eliminates the big variable and if it's done right it could set them up to get the more stable/reliable star instead. Say you clear Henson's contract with him then have star level FA space, get a 1st that is used in a trade for a star, get back a contract to use in a trade for a star, etc. And you wouldn't have the fear at all times that the 3rd tear is coming to bring everything you've built crashing down. So a win win in that he would personally have a good career and the other team gets the return they hoped and we'd have help in our path to the 2nd star Giannis needs.

[coolhandluke121]

Yeah he just got lucky, 20% 3PT shooter at best. He should ask Giannis for tips. Very silly of Jabari to peak at 21

Yeah, he got lucky. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. As usual, much of his scoring was on wide open attempts which were created by a team effort, not by his individual ability. Teams simply were giving him wide open 3's. He hit 50% for 6 weeks (nearly half his games!) and he still ended the season under 37%. He's around 25% in his other 2 seasons, was under 36% on shorter college 3's, is a 75% ft shooter in both college and the NBA, and has bad form with his elbow sticking out and across his body a little on jumpers. There's no more reason to believe he became a decent 3-point shooter than there was when Charlie V pulled the same thing in his last year with the Bucks, hitting 50% of his 3's in January and February of that year. That was the only time Charlie V was ever good enough on offense to make up for his bad defense, and Jabari pulled the exact same thing at the same time last year. If you have to rely on a bad 3-point shooter to hit close to 50% of his 3's to be a net positive, there's something seriously wrong there.

Incidentally, Jabari's career 3-point % is .341. Guess Charlie V's.

Spoiler:

.341, on the mother****in' dot.

[coolhandluke121]

"Jabari will never be anything more than a PPGZZZ defensive sieve" has pretty much been your schtick since Day 1.

My schtick, not to mention supported by all the available evidence, but who cares about evidence because the fact that it's my schtick if more important, right? I mean, it should be a referendum on what you think of me, not on the objective evidence of Jabari being a subpar player, right?

[H2tObes]

Yea, there is no way that Jabari was becoming a good 3 point shooter. Good point. Finished product at 21 by the way

[Ron Swanson]

I don't think a Big Dog comparison is "nailing" Jabari, before he went down we where talking about scoring titles in his future. He also isn't a selfish offensive player. At the end of the day the real issue with Jabari is the knees

Is it though? How selfish do you have to be to want a max contract in his situation? How much does he do to help any other player on the team? An occasional pass doesn't make up for abject neglect of all the other little things you have to do in order to be an overall positive contributor. Cinematographer showed that literally ever other player on the team was significantly worse when playing with Jabari compared to playing without him, both on offense and on defense. The team has completely transformed into a much better team both times he got hurt. Compare that to a guy like LRMAM in his first 3 years, who literally had no offensive talent whatsoever and yet instantly transformed the Bucks into a much better team every time he stepped on the court. Selfishness isn't just lack of passing; it's lack of being aware of any way you can help the team when there's no imminent chance of you getting the ball and having the offense revolve around you. He never boxes out or sets good screens, never really facilitates which is a different skill from passing to an open man, plays literally some of the worst off-ball defense in the history of the NBA, and can hardly even be bothered so shed his extra body fat and keep it off. And now he wants the max. GTFO, seriously. That's selfish.

When are you going to realize that it's **** like this, not your self-professed "objective criticism", that makes people not take anything you say about Jabari seriously? It's completely understandable to have reservations about a player and his overall potential, but your visible disdain for Jabari Parker's character is pathetic.