The Jabari Discussion Thread - Back 2/2

[Prez]

There has been several people say to do it. Efficient 20 ppg young scorer is going to get a max etc, Embiid got it so we gotta, if you don't think he's getting a max in rfa you're crazy so just do it, general talk about how he'll come back just as strong or stronger and will still be a huge piece of the future, will still be as athletic, so can't give up on him. Sure I'd grant no one is excited about but we can't laugh at MN like many did and then come back and justify doing it when it makes even less sense for us. And again I'm talking general themes and no way to know if it's same posters but there isn't a lot of heavy posters here so there has to be some overlap.

I don't think I ever said they were the same type of players anywhere and the whole time I said I'd take Jabari's game over him. I'm saying they're close in terms of level of good or however you wanna phrase, like a 2k rating whereas it's talked about here like Jabari was one some whole different superstar level and Wiggins is a bumb we literally wouldn't even want on our team. and my whole point is to look at all players and find the positives they can do and minimize weakness like we did with Jabari. How in any way is that saying they're all the same? You seem to be implying that I'm saying they all suck when my whole point was the complete opposite. I don't know how that's missed

Quote all the posts in this thread saying we should give him a straight 5 year max. Should be plenty. Saying “he’s going to get it because ____” or being somewhat optimistic about his recovery is not the same as saying the Bucks should give him a full 5 year max. The one guy who suggested it (RS) mentioned significant injury protections and has been a Jabari skeptic for the longest time. The overwhelming majority of this board wants absolutely no part of a 5 year max.

Literally no one is acting like Jabari is this amazing prospect levels above Wiggins. Again, you're strawmanning hard. A lot of people simply thought Jabari projected better down the road offensively and therefore liked him more than Wiggins, despite them both on the surface being similar low impact PPGZ guys at the moment.

[H2tObes]

I really hate that 2k ratings argument, you can judge a player without giving them a number. I would have much rather had Jabari on my team over Wiggins, a hypothetical overall means nothing. On the surface they do have similar major weaknesses, but Jabari is much better at what they are good at and easier to fit on a team. We'll just agree to disagree or whatever, but like I said I don't think there was this huge bias favoring Jabari on here, he was pretty clearly better than Wiggins before the 2nd ACL. People would still be really high on him if not for the 2nd ACL injury

[yannisk]

If Jabari was playing for another team and was becoming free agent would anybody in this board consider giving him a max contract?
I bet the majority here (after two ACLs) wouldn't want to do anything with him.

[H2tObes]

If Jabari was playing for another team and was becoming free agent would anybody in this board consider giving him a max contract?
I bet the majority here (after two ACLs) wouldn't want to do anything with him.

Well you can look through the threads, basically no one wants to hand him a big contract. Why would you? I say trade him before we lose him for nothing

[DingleJerry]

There has been several people say to do it. Efficient 20 ppg young scorer is going to get a max etc, Embiid got it so we gotta, if you don't think he's getting a max in rfa you're crazy so just do it, general talk about how he'll come back just as strong or stronger and will still be a huge piece of the future, will still be as athletic, so can't give up on him. Sure I'd grant no one is excited about but we can't laugh at MN like many did and then come back and justify doing it when it makes even less sense for us. And again I'm talking general themes and no way to know if it's same posters but there isn't a lot of heavy posters here so there has to be some overlap.

I don't think I ever said they were the same type of players anywhere and the whole time I said I'd take Jabari's game over him. I'm saying they're close in terms of level of good or however you wanna phrase, like a 2k rating whereas it's talked about here like Jabari was one some whole different superstar level and Wiggins is a bumb we literally wouldn't even want on our team. and my whole point is to look at all players and find the positives they can do and minimize weakness like we did with Jabari. How in any way is that saying they're all the same? You seem to be implying that I'm saying they all suck when my whole point was the complete opposite. I don't know how that's missed

Quote all the posts in this thread saying we should give him a straight 5 year max. Should be plenty. Saying “he’s going to get it because ____” or being somewhat optimistic about his recovery is not the same as saying the Bucks should give him a full 5 year max. The one guy who suggested it (RS) mentioned significant injury protections and has been a Jabari skeptic for the longest time. The overwhelming majority of this board wants absolutely no part of a 5 year max.

Literally no one is acting like Jabari is this amazing prospect levels above Wiggins. Again, you're strawmanning hard. A lot of people simply thought Jabari projected better down the road offensively and therefore liked him more than Wiggins, despite them both on the surface being similar low impact PPGZ guys at the moment.

Didn't I exactly say justifying it and say no one is pumped about it? Everything you pointed out is justifying it, like I said. We should be smarter than MN.

And yes in the last year before the 2nd tear I think I'm the only person that has said a positive thing about Wiggins. He's only mentioned negatively and often mocked. Jabari of course was untradeable superstar, that's different levels to me. I'm actually shocked you can even say that last sentence as a regular reader like yourself. If I'm strawmanning then I'd say you're having some selective memory for me. Yea there's no way to quantify any of it well I guess other than the poll that was 87% in favor of not trading and that there was only really 2-3 posters open to trading Jabari seems to support my take that Jabari was wideley beloved here and viewed as one hell of a prospect. If you don't recall the Wiggins bashing I'm not going to be able make you remember and yea who knows maybe I'm over-remembering it in a way too

[DingleJerry]

If Jabari was playing for another team and was becoming free agent would anybody in this board consider giving him a max contract?
I bet the majority here (after two ACLs) wouldn't want to do anything with him.

Winner Winner chicken dinner. That was a big point of mine the last time this really got hammered into a debate like it is right now.

[H2tObes]

Wow, the Bucks board didn't want to trade one of the best prospects the Bucks have ever had? Who would have thought

[DingleJerry]

I really hate that 2k ratings argument, you can judge a player without giving them a number. I would have much rather had Jabari on my team over Wiggins, a hypothetical overall means nothing. On the surface they do have similar major weaknesses, but Jabari is much better at what they are good at and easier to fit on a team. We'll just agree to disagree or whatever, but like I said I don't think there was this huge bias favoring Jabari on here, he was pretty clearly better than Wiggins before the 2nd ACL. People would still be really high on him if not for the 2nd ACL injury

Yea that's the best way I could come up with saying similar level of players into a clear way while acknowledging they're different types of players and just because Jabari was better didn't mean Wiggins sucked. Like I said the whole time I agreed Jabari was a better player at the time, though I did like Wiggins as a fit with Giannis better and if offered the trade straight up the day before the 2nd tear I would have taken Wiggins because he didn't already have the one tear. Play one game on Jan 8th last year, I take Jabari. Take one for the next 5 years I'd have taken Wiggins because of the ACL and fit with Giannis.

Maybe look at like tiers, they were essentially on the same tier but I'd have picked Jabari. But it's not like it wasn't close or debatable based on what one might value more or what a team would need more. Basically saying it's like Giannis vs AD, close debateable roughly same level of player, not like Giannis vs a Julius Randle or something like that, and the Wiggins bashing just gave me a vibe of a wide divide being implied that really wasn't there. I bring this up in the MJ GOAT debate too, I agree MJ is #1 but the next like 8 top top guys are right there with him, not some massive gap like ESPN pushes. Gretzky in hockey, yea it's him then a huge gap. MJ and those other top top guys are in a clump together with MJ coming out a bit ahead

[Prez]

Didn't I exactly say justifying it and say no one is pumped about it? Everything you pointed out is justifying it, like I said. We should be smarter than MN.

In your last post:

There has been several people say to do it.

If it's a large contingent there should be many posts.

And yes in the last year before the 2nd tear I think I'm the only person that has said a positive thing about Wiggins. He's only mentioned negatively and often mocked. Jabari of course was untradeable superstar, that's different levels to me. I'm actually shocked you can even say that last sentence as a regular reader like yourself. If I'm strawmanning then I'd say you're having some selective memory for me. Yea there's no way to quantify any of it well I guess other than the poll that was 87% in favor of not trading and that there was only really 2-3 posters open to trading Jabari seems to support my take that Jabari was wideley beloved here and viewed as one hell of a prospect. If you don't recall the Wiggins bashing I'm not going to be able make you remember and yea who knows maybe I'm over-remembering it in a way too

There's been plenty of Jabari criticism well before his re-injury. You can't tell me I have selective memory and then try to say only a couple posters were against him. Jabari has been one of the most polarizing topics of discussion on this board over the past couple years. To suggest he was some near universally beloved prospect here is just nonsense, and one poll does not reflect the entirety of the debate.

It absolutely was not consensus opinion that Jabari was levels above Wiggins. It may have been a general preference but that's about it. And 87% of this board not wanting to trade Jabari is not the same thing at all as thinking Wiggins is this bum prospect levels below Jabari.

[DingleJerry]

Didn't I exactly say justifying it and say no one is pumped about it? Everything you pointed out is justifying it, like I said. We should be smarter than MN.

In your last post:

There has been several people say to do it.

If it's a large contingent there should be many posts.

And yes in the last year before the 2nd tear I think I'm the only person that has said a positive thing about Wiggins. He's only mentioned negatively and often mocked. Jabari of course was untradeable superstar, that's different levels to me. I'm actually shocked you can even say that last sentence as a regular reader like yourself. If I'm strawmanning then I'd say you're having some selective memory for me. Yea there's no way to quantify any of it well I guess other than the poll that was 87% in favor of not trading and that there was only really 2-3 posters open to trading Jabari seems to support my take that Jabari was wideley beloved here and viewed as one hell of a prospect. If you don't recall the Wiggins bashing I'm not going to be able make you remember and yea who knows maybe I'm over-remembering it in a way too

There's been PLENTY of Jabari criticism well before his re-injury. You can't tell me I have selective memory and then try to say only a couple posters were against him. Jabari has been one of the most polarizing topics of discussion on this board over the past couple years. To suggest he was some near universally beloved prospect here is just nonsense, and one poll does not reflect the entirety of the debate.

It absolutely was not consensus opinion that Jabari was levels above Wiggins. It may have been a general preference but that's about it. And 87% of this board not wanting to trade Jabari is not the same thing at all as thinking Wiggins is this bum prospect levels below Jabari.

Jeez dude I said justify it in other spots and you pick one that generally just says do it which is vague. At one point I know I said something very close to I'm sure no one is pumped about it.

The anti Jabari element was essentially GoS and CHL, and to a lesser degree me before he showed a 3 ball. That was it. It was this hot topic because every came out so hard to defend him against the two very active posters against him.

[DingleJerry]

Wow, the Bucks board didn't want to trade one of the best prospects the Bucks have ever had? Who would have thought

It's like your intentionally ignoring the whole broader discussion. They should have that attitude. And they should have viewed Wiggins with the same attitude instead of picking on him, that is the point. Not that I'm bashing Jabari somehow.

If you guys don't think Wiggins has been picked on and bashed here so be it.

[H2tObes]

Wow, the Bucks board didn't want to trade one of the best prospects the Bucks have ever had? Who would have thought

It's like your intentionally ignoring the whole broader discussion. They should have that attitude. And they should have viewed Wiggins with the same attitude instead of picking on him, that is the point. Not that I'm bashing Jabari somehow.

If you guys don't think Wiggins has been picked on and bashed here so be it.

You really are acting as if Jabari and Wiggins are the same player

[Prez]

Jeez dude I said justify it in other spots and you pick one that generally just says do it which is vague. At one point I know I said something very close to I'm sure no one is pumped about it.

The anti Jabari element was essentially GoS and CHL, and to a lesser degree me before he showed a 3 ball. That was it. It was this hot topic because every came out so hard to defend him against the two very active posters against him.

CHL is just by far the most openly anti-Jabari poster here but there were plenty of general skeptics. It's been one of the most heated ongoing debates on this board for a couple years now. Obviously the pro-Jabari side is bigger but there's plenty on the other side.

[DingleJerry]

Wow, the Bucks board didn't want to trade one of the best prospects the Bucks have ever had? Who would have thought

It's like your intentionally ignoring the whole broader discussion. They should have that attitude. And they should have viewed Wiggins with the same attitude instead of picking on him, that is the point. Not that I'm bashing Jabari somehow.

If you guys don't think Wiggins has been picked on and bashed here so be it.

You really are acting as if Jabari and Wiggins are the same player

I don't see how you're not grasping that I'm talking about the way people on this board have discussed them and not really even trying to argue about their games. But you seem to keep just trying to point out Jabari is better in your opinion, which I'm not even arguing. Mostly I'm pointing out the negative vibe I've felt over Wiggins.

[emunney]

I love Jabari. Absolutely love him. And he's clueless defensively and his knee is an untenable risk. I will always root for him but I feel like the likelihood he'll help the Bucks win a championship all but sublimated when he went down vs. Miami. I think Horst actually understands this.

[DingleJerry]

For comments just from this thread, not the previous or trade thread as I don't want to spend anymore time. I don't think I ever said contingent saying max salary, but if I did I was wrong and admit to overstating. I would rephrase to a large or at least noticeable amount of posts justifying paying a large amount of money, most posts of course are vague.

he's still 20+ppg on a team desperate for points. Add in the intangibles -- co-development of a young and promising core, high character, etc. -- and the value proposition becomes clear. You have to keep him.

I don't see a better solution than paying Parker and hoping he improves defensively (and stays healthy).

Parker is also an emerging 3 point shooter, you need stars next to Giannis now, after year 2 of Giannis contract, he sees scrubs like DJ Wilson he is going to want out...nobody on here has been able to tell me a better way to add stars to this roster.

I'd be happy with Jabari getting a big contract if the doctors say his knee is ok. We can work around his defense with a different coach.

I think Embiid's contract should lay the groundwork for a Jabari's deal. Give him the money He wants

to say Jabari doesn't deserve to get paid but Embiid does makes zero sense.

Jabari's injured knee should heal completely afaik, what he loses from the injury is yet to be seen but if his first comeback is any indication then I don't expect him to all the sudden turn into a rim grazing plodder

Parker is going to get a max offer next summer. Just give it to him now and add the injury protection

If you guys don't think a young, efficient 20+ ppg scorer is gonna get a max offer, I don't really know what to tell ya.

Jabari will still be a 20+ PPG scorer when hes on the court full time.

Sean Livingston's - where he tore all 3 major ligaments and broke his leg and kneecap. If he can come back from that, and with the improvements in sports science since then, it shouldn't surprise anyone if Parker comes back strong

all evidence thus far indicates that his athleticism is something he'll regain.

ETA: Poll on Brewhoop has 44% OK with giving above 20 mil right now before extension deadline. 7% ok with full max extension. 8% at 25 mil and the rest at between 20 and 25.

[emunney]

I have never been sadder about any sports thing than I was for Jabari's 2nd ACL, and my dad knew Mike Webster.

[tyland]

I have never been sadder about any sports thing than I was for Jabari's 2nd ACL, and my dad knew Mike Webster.

It was right up there for me to. Had to step away for a few days to gather myself

Sent from my LG-H990 using Tapatalk

[Jez2983]

I had a genuine period of emptiness. Didn't upset me as much as it may have, just went numb.

[Jez2983]

As for the trade debate, the reason we shouldn't trade him is because his value is all-time low currently. I'd love him on the team as an efficient scorer and hope his D improves. I'm resigned to the fact that we'll throw money at him and hope it works.

If he could be traded for value, we should do it. The only way he has value is if he hadn't blown his knees, then we would be having this discussion more from a perspective of whether he fits well enough with Giannis.