Political Roundtable Part XV

[dckingsfan]

President Trump has made the American public murderers with his actions eliminating cost sharing reduction (CSR) payments. I feel sorry for you that have loved ones suffering from preexisting conditions or that you have those conditions yourself. This is more of a assault on American people than the horrific acts of a madman in Las Vegas. This is a cold and calculated plan to murder countless citizens and torches should be in the streets. The Republican leadership is as much complicit as the President is because the sit on there hands and not a peep. I guess they believe with prayer everything will be OK.

I think that is oversimplifying - no? There was never a specific explicit appropriation for those funds. And likely the program wouldn't survive in the courts. This is part of the mess that was the ACA.

Your arguments - Trump is a madman - can't disagree with that at all

CSRs should continue - But... the CSRs are (and have been ruled) unconstitutional (money can be taken out of the treasury if not provided by act of Congress). So, Obama started the program this way because he didn't want the ACA scored with the CSRs.

And the Rs were the ones that sued (appropriately so in this case, IMO) that you don't want to start these kinds of precedents. Obama did these type of actions... it is probably the worst part of his admin because it kicked down the door for Trump to do the same. Yet the ones that this will boomerang on the most will be the Rs. They were thrilled with the decision - but assumed this would be Hillary's problem and not their problem to deal with.

But will the action kill the marketplace? They would probably need to raise premiums by 20%. That is about the average increase that we have seen in premiums thus far. No one said that the ACA would be cheap for either consumers or the federal government.

So - this is a bit more nuanced, no?

[stilldropin20]

President Trump has made the American public murderers with his actions eliminating cost sharing reduction (CSR) payments. I feel sorry for you that have loved ones suffering from preexisting conditions or that you have those conditions yourself. This is more of a assault on American people than the horrific acts of a madman in Las Vegas. This is a cold and calculated plan to murder countless citizens and torches should be in the streets. The Republican leadership is as much complicit as the President is because the sit on there hands and not a peep. I guess they believe with prayer everything will be OK.

fake news.complete lie. yfofs

I've laid off you but its time to educate you my canadian friend. first off. I am a doctor. an american doctor, a surgeon. let me start with the fact that the canadian medical system cant hold a candle to the US medical system. not even our dirty ass jock strap we left under the bed 25 years ago in junior high. your doctors are NOT even half as good as ours. your techniques no where near as sophisticated. Our junior surgical 2nd year residents can OUTperform your chief surgeons in spades. you aren't even worthy of being called our "JV" team. We have micheal Jordan and you are Eddie Jordan. That's a fact. Thats where we start "healthcare debate." Ya know, i recall a so-called doctor from you canadian system when I was an omfs resident. He was an effin clown. he once pulled out the wrong wisdom teeth right in front of me. as I told him he was on the wrong side. 3 effin times!!! then he butchered that patient's mandible in front of me. he was gone in a week. back to Canada!!! Today, I personally have canadian patients and I cant believe the "crap dentistry" in their mouths. In this country, we call that mal-practice. garbage dentistry

But let's go back to the 1920's where we the USA invented medical insurance, for better or worse. and to this day we cover more procedures, and more conditions than any other country in the entire world, bar NONE!!!!!! No country in the world has the skills, advanced medicine, clinics, or technology to even be worthy of breathing the air we breath. NO ONE!! NO WHERE! the skill level and technology level and sophistication in medicine that we offer even our poorest people rivals that of state of the art clinics and the skill level of the elite, uber wealthy ruling class the entire world abound. And even there it is 90% american trained doctors performing those services for the wealthy abroad.

let me ask you a serious question? what good is the insurance if you cant effectively diagnose and treat the disease??? we can diagnose and treat you better here in the USA better than anywhere in the world. without that, the "insurance" isn't worth the card its printed on.

So why is it our advanced facilities on our northern borders are packed with canadian residents paying cash for our far advanced medical clinics, technology, and physicians skill levels. Whether it be access or skills or technology, Canadians come to our northern cities for treatment.

Furthermore, American money, american medicine, american technology, and american generosity has helped cure the world over of many diseases and conditions. from polio, to tuberculosis, to HIV, and on and on and on. Our money, our doctors, our pharmaceutical companies, and the american tax payer has CURED THE ENTIRE WORLD of more would be life threatening diseases than any other country. AND ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE. In terms of "humanitarian medicine," we went 82-0 and swept the finals 4-0 for like 8 decades in a row. So stop telling us we are "killing" people. You're a clown to write that and an idiot to actually believe it. so I'm left to believe that you clearly have some agenda. if you're sick and have a pre-existing condition. I feel bad for you. truly. and i hope you get the help you need.

But pretty please. stop lecturing us on how our system is "bad." or how "we are killing people." You are just flat out wrong. In terms of risk versus reward and costs versus production, We've "killed" no one. We have experimented. We have "practiced." And in doing so we have bettered the entire world. And right now Donald trump is attempting to find a way to make our exemplary world renowned leadership in the field of medicine more sustainable. That's it. More sustainable. Our future great grand children already have enough "bills" to pay.

[cammac]

Surgical outcomes Canada versus USA by USA Library of Medicine

We identified 38 studies comparing populations of patients in Canada and the United States. Studies addressed diverse problems, including cancer, coronary artery disease, chronic medical illnesses and surgical procedures. Of 10 studies that included extensive statistical adjustment and enrolled broad populations, 5 favoured Canada, 2 favoured the United States, and 3 showed equivalent or mixed results

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2801918/

[stilldropin20]

Surgical outcomes Canada versus USA by USA Library of Medicine

We identified 38 studies comparing populations of patients in Canada and the United States. Studies addressed diverse problems, including cancer, coronary artery disease, chronic medical illnesses and surgical procedures. Of 10 studies that included extensive statistical adjustment and enrolled broad populations, 5 favoured Canada, 2 favoured the United States, and 3 showed equivalent or mixed results

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2801918/

oh, so you are a complete fool? you actually do believe canada can diagnose and treat disease as well as the united states? you actually do believe that? I'm not even going to waste my time reading that garbage. anybody else believe that crap? if so please go to canada for your medical treatment. its not only better, but its free!!! please go!!! please. do us all a favor and go there. None of us want to pay for your medical bills. so I beg you. go there. yeah...nobody is going there. in fact canadians come here. FACT.

as expensive as our medical schools as well as how taxing surgical and diagnosic residencies are, they remain the most sought after schools in the world. and 98% of our graduates practice here. If our schools are the most competitive to enter, yet the most expensive only reason need tell you they are the best. Among other things.

i'm the doctor with 20 years experience in the field of medicine, not you. go away. get another doctor in here with 20 years experience if you want to debate me on this. run along. go peddle your crap elsewhere, that we americans are killing people elsewhere.

[stilldropin20]

trump getting us out of horrific iran nuclear deal. bought time. what were kerry and obama thinking? the deal put american lives at risk. and we payed them for it!!?? in foreign cash!!

[dckingsfan]

Surgical outcomes Canada versus USA by USA Library of Medicine

We identified 38 studies comparing populations of patients in Canada and the United States. Studies addressed diverse problems, including cancer, coronary artery disease, chronic medical illnesses and surgical procedures. Of 10 studies that included extensive statistical adjustment and enrolled broad populations, 5 favoured Canada, 2 favoured the United States, and 3 showed equivalent or mixed results

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2801918/

i'm the doctor with 20 years experience in the field of medicine, not you. go away.

Actually, when measuring overall outcomes - the last person you would want to do the studies would be a physician. Reason: outcome bias.

So, I would rather listen to an economist on this one. This study was done by physicians with data that didn't always match up. I think an economist would say there wasn't enough matching data. You don't dismiss your own study, so they say:

In virtually all areas, study results have demonstrated some apparent advantages for Canada and others for the United States.

[cammac]

Surgical outcomes Canada versus USA by USA Library of Medicine

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2801918/

i'm the doctor with 20 years experience in the field of medicine, not you. go away.

Actually, when measuring overall outcomes - the last person you would want to do the studies would be a physician. Reason: outcome bias.

So, I would rather listen to an economist on this one. This study was done by physicians with data that didn't always match up. I think an economist would say there wasn't enough matching data. You don't dismiss your own study, so they say:

In virtually all areas, study results have demonstrated some apparent advantages for Canada and others for the United States.

I tend to agree statistics can be used to prove anything as was substantiated by the ravings of Nate.
I selected the American study simply because any bias would likely favor a USA position and I don't know the origin of all the studies selected and whether they were done by Physicians or Academics but in this case unlikely a Economist simply because it isn't identifying medicine and outcomes as a cost factor.

[dckingsfan]

i'm the doctor with 20 years experience in the field of medicine, not you. go away.

Actually, when measuring overall outcomes - the last person you would want to do the studies would be a physician. Reason: outcome bias.

So, I would rather listen to an economist on this one. This study was done by physicians with data that didn't always match up. I think an economist would say there wasn't enough matching data. You don't dismiss your own study, so they say:

In virtually all areas, study results have demonstrated some apparent advantages for Canada and others for the United States.

I tend to agree statistics can be used to prove anything as was substantiated by the ravings of Nate.
I selected the American study simply because any bias would likely favor a USA position and I don't know the origin of all the studies selected and whether they were done by Physicians or Academics but in this case unlikely a Economist simply because it isn't identifying medicine and outcomes as a cost factor.

The group you choose has been very vocal in their support of single payer... and for quite some time. They have some good arguments - but they definitely take the side of single payer.

NIH would get a tremendous funding bump on many of their initiatives with the implementation of single payer.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[dobrojim]

Yep, we get sucked in... this is my guy - he has good intentions even if his programs are unworkable.

It's Andrew Bacevich, a historian (not a pol). I'm not aware that he has 'programs'. He mainly points out the
folly of us continuing to ignore that what we're doing isn't achieving the goals we intend even
as it is bankrupting us.

Yep - read his book, The Limits of Power. Here is a synapsis of the book - guess you will get why I am onboard with his thinking:

As American power expanded abroad, liberty grew at home. But the country’s expectations soon exceeded its ability to satisfy them. At that point, Americans faced a choice: “curb their appetites and learn to live within their means, or deploy . . . United States power in hopes of obliging others to accommodate” them. You can guess which one Bacevich thinks Americans went for.

When I said we get sucked in... this is my guy - I am saying, that you can just insert your politician. We are tuned out and don't want to get into policy specifics. "My guy" has the right intentions - even if it is the wrong policy - he will make it right. We see how that turned out with Trump.

I read pretty much every one of his recent books. I've been 'onboard' with him for years.
Met him once too at a book signing.

[dobrojim]

Actually, when measuring overall outcomes - the last person you would want to do the studies would be a physician. Reason: outcome bias.

So, I would rather listen to an economist on this one. This study was done by physicians with data that didn't always match up. I think an economist would say there wasn't enough matching data. You don't dismiss your own study, so they say:

I tend to agree statistics can be used to prove anything as was substantiated by the ravings of Nate.
I selected the American study simply because any bias would likely favor a USA position and I don't know the origin of all the studies selected and whether they were done by Physicians or Academics but in this case unlikely a Economist simply because it isn't identifying medicine and outcomes as a cost factor.

The group you choose has been very vocal in their support of single payer... and for quite some time. They have some good arguments - but they definitely take the side of single payer.

NIH would get a tremendous funding bump on many of their initiatives with the implementation of single payer.

The NIH mission is to relieve or diminish the burden of disease. So I'm not clear how a change
in how insurance is paid for or administered would impact this institution. The NIH studies diseases
but it doesn't, at least not in large measure, directly provide health care.

[I_Like_Dirt]

The thing is, though, that costs in comparably industrialized economies tend to be better in countries that at least have a very significant portion of single payer build into the system. There aren't so many examples on either side that we can really use the statistics, so to speak, but logically speaking, it flows that the more you allow costs to be controlled on the supplier side on emotional issues, you're going to see increasing abuses. Single payer has several inherent flaws that need to be addressed and different countries attempt to address them in different ways, but trying to address costs spiraling out of control without using the mechanism that better gives you an opportunity to control costs is wasted energy, overall. Just because you have a hammer doesn't mean you'll build a house, but if you don't have a hammer, you probably aren't building one, either.

To be honest, dc, I actually agree with you when you speak to entitlements, but I think we need to take a larger view of what entitlements actually are. Entitlements are more than just health care, social services, etc. Entitlements also include things like paying less or more taxes, using roads, being able to do business amongst the American population, having access to the best health care in the world (by paying for it), etc. Those are entitlements that never get lumped in with entitlements when the term gets used, but they're entitlements nonetheless.

With respect to the medical field, having access to the best health care in the world by a rather large degree is a massive entitlement that costs a ton, and it's so expensive that not everyone in the country can afford to have access and the USA is spending nearly double in terms of public and private funds put together than the next industrialized nation where health care is concerned. The right of people to bankrupt themselves spending whatever it takes to do whatever they can afford for health care is an entitlement that causes all sorts of economic problems, because people don't think rationally about finances when they're concerned about their health, and that allows for all sorts of abuses of the system, which we're seeing. A lot of the complaints single payer face are actually a function of addressing this very issue. People complain that they should have immediate access to existing services no matter what and cost should be no option and they were made wait, etc. or didn't get to see the best doctors immediately. The reality is we can't and shouldn't try to afford such a luxury. If you want a microcosm of what the end game of the market would look like, look no further than gaming on apps on phones and other devices. Absolutely everything on those games is done with a mind for getting the smallest fraction of the population to spend as much as possible while largely ignoring everybody else. They allow others to play, to a point, because the wealthy don't want to play games if nobody else is playing, but it's nothing more than a strategy. Now imagine a system like that where the suppliers don't have to target the masses in order to incentivize the wealthy to spend. That's the end game.

And if the idea is that the USA would lose it's health position, so be it. I mean, really, if the idea is that allowing price gouging is the reason top people are staying rather than the fact that they're living in a nation that they love while having a solid job with a great wage, then gouging is basically masking an even bigger problem. And it isn't really the wages of the medical staff that are the issue here so much as it is all the suppliers, middle men and insurance companies that are the bigger cost drivers here. Capitalism has a problem if the demand side of things is going to be driven by an emotional mind worried that they or a loved one might die if they don't spend whatever it takes.

[stilldropin20]

Actually, when measuring overall outcomes - the last person you would want to do the studies would be a physician. Reason: outcome bias.

So, I would rather listen to an economist on this one. This study was done by physicians with data that didn't always match up. I think an economist would say there wasn't enough matching data. You don't dismiss your own study, so they say:

I tend to agree statistics can be used to prove anything as was substantiated by the ravings of Nate.
I selected the American study simply because any bias would likely favor a USA position and I don't know the origin of all the studies selected and whether they were done by Physicians or Academics but in this case unlikely a Economist simply because it isn't identifying medicine and outcomes as a cost factor.

The group you choose has been very vocal in their support of single payer... and for quite some time. They have some good arguments - but they definitely take the side of single payer.

NIH would get a tremendous funding bump on many of their initiatives with the implementation of single payer.

exactly. thank you. cammac is misinforming at best and disinforming at worst. and potentially doesn't even know or understand the difference.

i'm sorry folks, studies are made to say whatever you want them to say. Every single study that requires interpretation which is nearly everything. doctors like me laugh at nate's "studies" the same way i paugh at cammac's studies. and i dont have 12 years of premed and med and dental school nor a master's degree in business to "teach you on the internet." You simply dont know what on earth you are talking about. you cant even pretend to be honest because and honest person looking for truth would stipulate every single research or study with its drawbacks like DCkings just did. thats if you are honest and looking for truth. Liars looking to disinform will just spread lies disguised as truth to an even more gullible audience. likely not even understanding that they are disinforming the reader.

it starts with who is funding the study. those funds never come from a source that just wants the truth. thats source almost always has skin in the game. from the source of the funding you then have clinicians, scientists or statistician (or combo thereof) that are either somewhat ethical to not ethical at all. No ethical scientists accepts funds to perform a study unless the results of the study flies in face of those funding it. otherwise the study is dismissed.

fact is the united states of america is far out in front of the entire world in terms of physician skill level, number of physicians per capita, medical technology, education of everyone employed in our healthcare system, research and development. and so much more. we lead this arena("medicine") perhaps more than we lead any other arena in the "business" marketplace. we are simply the best.

Cammac directly said, we "the american people" are killing people." Implying that somehow are healthcare programs and the insurance we do or do not provide kills people. Its a phunkin lie!! to the core. a lie. Our "JV" team of medical residents can teach the entire world a thing or 2 about medicine. and knowledge. knowledge. then technology is the backbone of any medical healthcare insurance. Not an insurance plan. the plan dont mean crap without the skills and technology behind it. we've got the best technology. its the most widespread. the most accessible. the most modern. the most everything. the entire world over. its not close. canadians get in line and pay out of pocket at out our boarders to see our doctors to avoid even longer lines in their own country. because they want to see the best doctors with the best technology. now its true, they will go get their prescriptions filled in canada. and good for them. americans can certainly do better in terms of cost. But skill? accuracy? results? If your life is on the line, you are in better hands in the USA.

546 reported injuries in vegas last week while being shot? trampled? etc? everyone was seen in hours. only 58 died. nearly 45 still in intensive care, but alive. I believe as many as 115 were in intensive care to start. No other country in the world can do that. NO ONE. Got a heart attack? Northwestern memorial has the best survival rate in the entire world. and its not even close once you get outside of the US. and i could go on. no need.

the united states has a diet and life style issue. we are sedimentary and we eat poorly and take too many drugs. lobbyists have caused many of our costs to sky rocket. in the face of those sky rocketing costs, only about 15% of our citizens do not have insurance and those americans are treated via our "emergency room" systems regardless of ability to pay.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I've been doing some self reflection and obviously something is wrong with me.

I'm having a difficult time recognizing the greatness that is Trump.

I mean it's clear as day his policies are great for America. He's a decent and trustworthy man who PUTS AMERICA FIRST.

Just look at his cabinet. They're all about "DRAINING THE SWAMP".

His entire life has been about bringing people together.

I mean Obama was alright but he's no Trump in terms of intellect or policy.

MAGA

No green font necessary.

MAGA is really code for MAWA.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using RealGM mobile app

Stop being racist CCJ!

I dunno...

Whitey been holding me down for fo hunerd years. I'm only 56 years old.

Too bad I can no longer grow an afro, else I would wear my hair like Kaepernick.

MABFTFT

(Make America Black for the 1st time)

Sent from my Moto G (4) using RealGM mobile app

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

SD20 is trying to out crazy me.

I'll not have that.



Sent from my Moto G (4) using RealGM mobile app

[TGW]

Anyone who thinks the U.S. Healthcare system is better than the Canadian system is a complete buffoon.

[dckingsfan]

It's Andrew Bacevich, a historian (not a pol). I'm not aware that he has 'programs'. He mainly points out the
folly of us continuing to ignore that what we're doing isn't achieving the goals we intend even
as it is bankrupting us.

Yep - read his book, The Limits of Power. Here is a synapsis of the book - guess you will get why I am onboard with his thinking:

As American power expanded abroad, liberty grew at home. But the country’s expectations soon exceeded its ability to satisfy them. At that point, Americans faced a choice: “curb their appetites and learn to live within their means, or deploy . . . United States power in hopes of obliging others to accommodate” them. You can guess which one Bacevich thinks Americans went for.

When I said we get sucked in... this is my guy - I am saying, that you can just insert your politician. We are tuned out and don't want to get into policy specifics. "My guy" has the right intentions - even if it is the wrong policy - he will make it right. We see how that turned out with Trump.

I read pretty much every one of his recent books. I've been 'onboard' with him for years.
Met him once too at a book signing.

Would love to sit down and have a beer with that guy... Did you get to chat with him?

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

SD20 is trying to out crazy me.

I'll not have that.



Sent from my Moto G (4) using RealGM mobile app

LOL

[stilldropin20]

SD20 is trying to out crazy me.

I'll not have that.



Sent from my Moto G (4) using RealGM mobile app

[stilldropin20]

Anyone who thinks the U.S. Healthcare system is better than the Canadian system is a complete buffoon.

let me state it another way.

In comparison to the United states, the canadian health care system is the New jersey nets. and the united states is the golden state warriors.

Canadians get season tickets to the nets. and 85% of americans get season tickets to the GSW. and the reamining 15% get standing room only to, again, the GSFW.

10% of your population crosses the boarder to to come see the champs regularly and .01% of you get to see us twice a year.