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Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#461 » by Ruzious » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:18 pm

payitforward wrote:
gambitx777 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:...And I may have this screwed up, but my understanding on the lux tax calculation is that it's based only on the roster you have on the last day of the season. Maybe it actually helps to cut a player like McCullough making 1.5 mil and picking up a min salary guy like Zimmerman? And min salaries don't count against the regular cap, so there's no restriction there other than roster spots. Again, I could be completely wrong on the lux tax.

You're not wrong, but ultimately you are still paying the money. Either in tax or to the player then another player and that contracts cap hit to the tax. its really a minimal impact though. It all boils down to ok, how much do we want a tittle. because any little tiny improvement could be something that makes or breaks us in the end.
Who can be cut, paid and not be too much of a bother to replace. right now we stand at 16 contracts and 2 D league deals.
Tim, Sloan, Scott, Mac, and felix are all on cheap 1 year deals.
So cut mac, memphis did this with chalmers a year or two ago when he blew his leg out when eh was on a one year deal, they jsut paid him and he went home.
that puts you at 15 contracts with felix, who has played well. and our two d league players, so Cut tim. bring in zimmerman and you have 15 dudes and a 21 year old center prospect.
You can cut scott, sloan or felix, bu felix is playing well and he can play the 2 or the 3 and after Kelley we don't have much there, sloan is a pretty solid back up point guard and who would you replace scott with? Terrance jones? Sullinger? christian wood, derrick williams?
So i would cut Tim, (silly considering we paid a second for him but thats water under the bridge at this point.) and Mac (pay the kid, let him heal and give him a chance when hes better.) Sign a guy like zimmerman and keep felix. Keep sloan and scott unless a better player comes around cheap.

Sigh.... Gamby, do yourself a favor & don't opine on this stuff, b/c you clearly haven't taken the time to understand it. & you're not doing the simple arithmetic to understand the costs of these maneuvers.

Yes, Ruz is wrong. A guaranteed contract is... well, guaranteed. If you waive the guy, you don't get to stop paying him, & you don't get to remove his salary from your total. In fact, another team can pick him up for free -- at least at the $$ level you guaranteed.

We can cut Sloan or Felix w/o any cost, b/c their contracts are not guaranteed. OTOH, we seem to have picked up Mac's option. So, no, we can't cut him or Scott or Frazier or McCullough w/o paying every penny in their salaries & the tax penalties as well. & paying the new guys' salaries too of course. & tax payments on their salaries. & the extra tax payments (on all dollars over the limit) that you likely incurred for the team w/ these maneuvers that raised your total salary level.

Please -- stop talking about this. It's ridiculous.

Pif, I get the feeling you didn't understand I was talking strictly about the lux tax rules. Correct me if I'm wrong there.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#462 » by Illmatic12 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:54 pm

payitforward wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote:
nate33 wrote:...Jordan is only under contract for the remainder of this year. He has a player option next year at $24M. It would be insane to trade away Oubre and a pick in order to upgrade from Gortat to Jordan for, at best, 1.5 seasons.

Why at best 1.5 seasons? You try to retain him of course. In 2019, if Jordan re-signs for say, 3yrs/$60mil then we've upgraded from a bottom ~5 to a top 5 defensive center for the remainder of Wall's prime.

And if Kelly shows significant upside as a future starting caliber SF then I'd be hesitant to trade him. But in the event that his development stagnates this season (for instance if he still can't crack 30% from three) then next summer would be the time to gauge his value on the market.

This is really getting ridiculous -- if we made this move, & if Jordan re-signed for your suggested 3 years / $60m, then in 2019-20 we would have 5 players earning a combined $126m.

Can everyone please start paying attention to the realities of the cap & tax structure.

You realize that if we extended Oubre (say 4yrs, $50 million) we'd still be way over the cap just on five players? We could try to dump Mahinmi at some point.. but this is the reality.

The way things are, payrolls are going to be high for almost every team that spent in the last two summers.
In that same year Toronto will have 5 players earning a combined $110m. Portland's payroll will be similar if they extend Nurkic after this season. OKCs payroll will be skyhigh on Westbrook + George + Anthony + Adams alone.

I could go on. Between Towns (rookie max extension), Wiggins, Butler, Teague, Dieng the Timberwolves will be looking at $120 mil for 5 players.

If Washington wants to have a competitive team around Wall for the remainder of his contract , it's going to cost a lot.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#463 » by nate33 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:29 pm

Illmatic12 wrote:Why at best 1.5 seasons? You try to retain him of course. In 2019, if Jordan re-signs for say, 3yrs/$60mil then we've upgraded from a bottom ~5 to a top 5 defensive center for the remainder of Wall's prime.

And if Kelly shows significant upside as a future starting caliber SF then I'd be hesitant to trade him. But in the event that his development stagnates this season (for instance if he still can't crack 30% from three) then next summer would be the time to gauge his value on the market.

I'm not interested in paying a 31-year-old who relies on athleticism a $20M per year contract.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#464 » by Dark Faze » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:03 pm

Looking at some of the rosters around the league....man...there are some really really poor rosters out there
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Re: RE: Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#465 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:09 pm

nate33 wrote:I'm circling like a vulture over New Orleans. Their twin towers lineup with no guard play and no cap room is certain to end in disaster. The obvious play is to trade Otto Porter for Demarcus Cousins with Asik and one of our centers being swapped to make the salaries match. Bill Simmons and others on his podcast think the trade is likely, though they seem to think that Washington needs to include multiple 1st rounders, which is silly. Cousins' trade value, with just a few months left on an expiring contract, isn't that high.

The only problem is, I don't really want to trade Porter for Cousins.

So with that in mind, how about uniting John Wall and Cousins together... in New Orleans? New Orleans has got to be concerned that Anthony Davis wants to get out as soon as he can, and they really don't have any avenue to improve the team well enough to convince him to stay. How many first round picks would we need to add to trade John Wall for Anthony Davis plus bad contracts?

A core of Beal, Porter and Davis should contend for years. Each of them are just 24 years old! Also, we get out of Wall's gargantuan contract, which should make it a bit easier to build some depth around the core.

I don't like this idea. You cannot win without a good point guard in the NBA. Trading Wall would be pretty depressing to Washington fans. Davis has been injured too much.

Not saying that this couldn't work as a Davis is a great player. It just doesn't move the needle for me.

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#466 » by Rafael122 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:57 pm

Any deal for Jordan would have to be one of Gortat or Mahinmi, Smith, a pick and maybe someone like Chris McCullough. Jordan is a liability in the last few minutes of the 4th quarter so they'd just keep fouling him. On top of that, he has an opt out next season so I agree with Nate, you're giving up a player in his early 20s for what amounts to a year rental.

I will say this though, Oubre has to start showing something. There's still another year left on his deal but if he steps up and there's a possibility that he could take Porter's spot I don't see how you don't dangle Otto for Cousins. What would be terrible is if we have to take Asik back. I'd prefer Ajinca b/c he makes a lot less.
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Re: RE: Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#467 » by Ruzious » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:59 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
nate33 wrote:I'm circling like a vulture over New Orleans. Their twin towers lineup with no guard play and no cap room is certain to end in disaster. The obvious play is to trade Otto Porter for Demarcus Cousins with Asik and one of our centers being swapped to make the salaries match. Bill Simmons and others on his podcast think the trade is likely, though they seem to think that Washington needs to include multiple 1st rounders, which is silly. Cousins' trade value, with just a few months left on an expiring contract, isn't that high.

The only problem is, I don't really want to trade Porter for Cousins.

So with that in mind, how about uniting John Wall and Cousins together... in New Orleans? New Orleans has got to be concerned that Anthony Davis wants to get out as soon as he can, and they really don't have any avenue to improve the team well enough to convince him to stay. How many first round picks would we need to add to trade John Wall for Anthony Davis plus bad contracts?

A core of Beal, Porter and Davis should contend for years. Each of them are just 24 years old! Also, we get out of Wall's gargantuan contract, which should make it a bit easier to build some depth around the core.

I don't like this idea. You cannot win without a good point guard in the NBA. Trading wall would be pretty depressing to Washington fans. Davis has been injured too much.

Not saying that this couldn't work as a Davis is a great player. It just doesn't move the needle for me.

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Interesting discussion. I'd lean toward's CCJ's opinion. We would be pointless, so to speak. Not to mention NO is committed to Jrue. Hope that NO gets tired of losing with Davis, and that they take a bigger liking to Cousins - to the point that they'd consider Porter plus Mahinmi and a 1st rounder for Davis and Asik. It's a long-shot but what's that song... "I like dreaming".

NO will be facing crisis situation. How long can they keep losing when they have the most talented big in the game? Solly Hill was probably going to be their 6th man, and he's done for the season. That made their depth go from real bad to... worse than real bad.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#468 » by long suffrin' boulez fan » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:30 pm

Kay Felder anyone?

Looks like Hawks might release him
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#469 » by 80sballboy » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:53 am

long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:Kay Felder anyone?

Looks like Hawks might release him


I'm more intrigued with RJ. I think he can help Oubre and might be a player who can help in prostseason (a poor man's PP?) I don't think we have room for Felder with Frazier, Sato and possibly Sloan backing up Wall. He's fun to watch though.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#470 » by NatP4 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:38 am

Ernie was able to strike gold by attaching a couple 2nds to our last late 1st round pick and draft a core player in Oubre. I would prefer to keep both Oubre and Porter and hope ernie can turn a late 1st into a core big.

If we had the money to re sign Noel I would move the pick for him. Paying 16 mill to a backup center is just so stupid
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Re: RE: Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#471 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:59 pm

80sballboy wrote:
long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:Kay Felder anyone?

Looks like Hawks might release him


I'm more intrigued with RJ. I think he can help Oubre and might be a player who can help in prostseason (a poor man's PP?) I don't think we have room for Felder with Frazier, Sato and possibly Sloan backing up Wall. He's fun to watch though.

Totally agree.. Richard Jefferson has the game and the experience and the work ethic to help.

However, RJ threw a party where there was a bowl with lots of condoms in it (heard this on Jalen and Jacoby). Not sure he's a great mentor.


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Re: RE: Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#472 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:01 pm

NatP4 wrote:Ernie was able to strike gold by attaching a couple 2nds to our last late 1st round pick and draft a core player in Oubre. I would prefer to keep both Oubre and Porter and hope ernie can turn a late 1st into a core big.

If we had the money to re sign Noel I would move the pick for him. Paying 16 mill to a backup center is just so stupid

I don't agree with you on this one.

I would still take Portis and the second round picks.

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Re: RE: Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#473 » by Ruzious » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:00 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
80sballboy wrote:
long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:Kay Felder anyone?

Looks like Hawks might release him


I'm more intrigued with RJ. I think he can help Oubre and might be a player who can help in prostseason (a poor man's PP?) I don't think we have room for Felder with Frazier, Sato and possibly Sloan backing up Wall. He's fun to watch though.

Totally agree.. Richard Jefferson has the game and the experience and the work ethic to help.

However, RJ threw a party where there was a bowl with lots of condoms in it (heard this on Jalen and Jacoby). Not sure he's a great mentor.


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Jefferson's great for a 37 year old, but that's because most 37 year olds were done by the time they were 32... as basketball players, that is. His PER last year was under 9 - that shows how productive he was. And he's a far cry from the defender he used to be - other than knowing what officials he can get away with stuff. Absolutely get Felder and cut Sloan. Sloan's not going to play anyway, imo.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#474 » by pcbothwel » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:42 pm

Rafael122 wrote:Any deal for Jordan would have to be one of Gortat or Mahinmi, Smith, a pick and maybe someone like Chris McCullough. Jordan is a liability in the last few minutes of the 4th quarter so they'd just keep fouling him. On top of that, he has an opt out next season so I agree with Nate, you're giving up a player in his early 20s for what amounts to a year rental.

I will say this though, Oubre has to start showing something. There's still another year left on his deal but if he steps up and there's a possibility that he could take Porter's spot I don't see how you don't dangle Otto for Cousins. What would be terrible is if we have to take Asik back. I'd prefer Ajinca b/c he makes a lot less.


Raf,
This is the X-Factor I have debated. What if Oubre takes the next step and Otto continues his success and physical growth?
You would think that opens us up to trade Otto for another piece, but other part of me thinks that is the most dangerous 1-4 in NBA outside of GSW.
If Oubre proves to be legit, then we can give him Gortat and Morris's money and move forward.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#475 » by payitforward » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:48 am

Ruzious wrote:..And I may have this screwed up, but my understanding on the lux tax calculation is that it's based only on the roster you have on the last day of the season. Maybe it actually helps to cut a player like McCullough making 1.5 mil and picking up a min salary guy like Zimmerman?....

Ruzious wrote:Pif, I get the feeling you didn't understand I was talking strictly about the lux tax rules. Correct me if I'm wrong there.

I did understand, Ruz, & in this case you are wrong. Once a player has a guaranteed contract (e.g. McCullough), he's part of your salary structure for the year. Unless you trade him, you can't get his salary off of it.

If you could, then every team in tax territory would be cutting guys on the last day of the season! :)

Saying that the tax calc is based on your roster at the end of the season is not exactly incorrect; it's just imprecise, a loose formulation.

Right now, with Mac, we have 14 guys on the roster for just under $125m. We also have Robinson/Young on 2-way contracts -- but I believe those don't count against cap or tax. If I'm wrong about that, those 2 guys would add a combined $100K - 500K to our total, depending on how many days the 2 guys spend with the Wizards (as opposed to in the G-League).
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Re: RE: Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#476 » by montestewart » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:39 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
80sballboy wrote:
long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:Kay Felder anyone?

Looks like Hawks might release him


I'm more intrigued with RJ. I think he can help Oubre and might be a player who can help in prostseason (a poor man's PP?) I don't think we have room for Felder with Frazier, Sato and possibly Sloan backing up Wall. He's fun to watch though.

Totally agree.. Richard Jefferson has the game and the experience and the work ethic to help.

However, RJ threw a party where there was a bowl with lots of condoms in it (heard this on Jalen and Jacoby). Not sure he's a great mentor.


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He's a safe sex advocate. I can think of worse NBA mentors. At least it wasn't a bowl of roofies.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#477 » by penbeast0 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:27 pm

If you want a vet to fill for the year, I thought Gerald Green and even more, Beno Udrih, both seemed to still be playing solid roles as reserves, more impressed with them than with Jefferson. Both were waived as well.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#478 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:08 pm

montestewart wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
80sballboy wrote:
I'm more intrigued with RJ. I think he can help Oubre and might be a player who can help in prostseason (a poor man's PP?) I don't think we have room for Felder with Frazier, Sato and possibly Sloan backing up Wall. He's fun to watch though.

Totally agree.. Richard Jefferson has the game and the experience and the work ethic to help.

However, RJ threw a party where there was a bowl with lots of condoms in it (heard this on Jalen and Jacoby). Not sure he's a great mentor.


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He's a safe sex advocate. I can think of worse NBA mentors. At least it wasn't a bowl of roofies.

Yeah that would be worse roofies.

Seriously, montestewart, you relieved me. I don't judge but I was thinking maybe RJ was into some real raunchy stuff and maybe I don't want Oubre to be around that.

I feel bad admitting to this.



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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#479 » by montestewart » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:15 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
montestewart wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Totally agree.. Richard Jefferson has the game and the experience and the work ethic to help.

However, RJ threw a party where there was a bowl with lots of condoms in it (heard this on Jalen and Jacoby). Not sure he's a great mentor.


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He's a safe sex advocate. I can think of worse NBA mentors. At least it wasn't a bowl of roofies.

Yeah that would be worse roofies.

Seriously, montestewart, you relieved me. I don't judge but I was thinking maybe RJ was into some real raunchy stuff and maybe I don't want Oubre to be around that.

I feel bad admitting to this.
/url]

Sometimes the best mentor is one who relates a little to what a youngster is facing, rather than going with an oblivious "just say no" approach. Smart parents now counsel their kids on birth control and safe sex. Using a condom does a good job preventing STDs, and also does a good job avoiding paternity suits. Maybe Jefferson is the wise one.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV 

Post#480 » by verbal8 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:31 pm

pcbothwel wrote:
Rafael122 wrote:Any deal for Jordan would have to be one of Gortat or Mahinmi, Smith, a pick and maybe someone like Chris McCullough. Jordan is a liability in the last few minutes of the 4th quarter so they'd just keep fouling him. On top of that, he has an opt out next season so I agree with Nate, you're giving up a player in his early 20s for what amounts to a year rental.

I will say this though, Oubre has to start showing something. There's still another year left on his deal but if he steps up and there's a possibility that he could take Porter's spot I don't see how you don't dangle Otto for Cousins. What would be terrible is if we have to take Asik back. I'd prefer Ajinca b/c he makes a lot less.


Raf,
This is the X-Factor I have debated. What if Oubre takes the next step and Otto continues his success and physical growth?
You would think that opens us up to trade Otto for another piece, but other part of me thinks that is the most dangerous 1-4 in NBA outside of GSW.
If Oubre proves to be legit, then we can give him Gortat and Morris's money and move forward.

It think a breakout from Oubre creates depth rather than a logjam. Just splitting the 2 and 3 between Beal, Oubre and Porter would be 32 minutes per player. A few minutes of Beal at 1 or Porter at 4 would allow 35 minutes per player.

The salary structure would mean essentially going with the "Rent A Center" after Gortats deal. But I think that isn't as big a weakness given the direction the NBA is moving.

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