OKC Thunder Offseason: Avengers Assemble

[slick_watts]

we can do much better than perk for the minimum. dakari is better than perk. we already have a roster sage who won't play (n. collison). don't need another.

Slick, I respect your basketball knowledge, but on no planet, in no alternate reality, is Dakari Johnson better than Kendrick Perkins. And yes, I am looking beyond the numbers and stats here. Intangibles do count in the NBA.

what value would perkins' "intangibles" have to the team? would they help the team perform better?

if we pursue another big man, it's going to be someone who can get onto the court. perkins shouldn't sniff the court at this point in his career. dakari would be superior. lavoy allen, david lee, roy hibbert, spencer hawes, and others would be better than perkins. a trade target like ajinca or perhaps ed davis would be better than perkins.

if nick wasn't already on the roster, ok. but we can't afford to have two big men cheerleaders.

[Atomic Punk]

Re Perk: Yes, if he comes back as part of the coaching staff. He has no business getting minutes. Since getting traded by us 2.5 years ago (!!!), Perkins has played a total of 709 minutes in the NBA. There's a reason for that.
If you think, Dakari Johnson looks slow, you have never seen Perkins play.

Re Henson: There's no way for us to aquire a guy with that kind of a salary because you can't combine TPEs. He's overpaid.

Re backup Center in general: They should give Dakari Johnson a chance till say the end of Novemeber. Let's see if he can get going a little bit. Maybe he just needs to find himself on the NBA floor.
If that does not work, they should make getting a Center that can run the Pick and Roll a priority. Felton can't really shoot, but he is still decent enough at running the PnR. If our Center can't do that, we're negating any positive impact Felton could have had offensively.

I'm liking this Nogueria kid more and more. He seems to be athletic, has very decent defensive impact stats, was very good in the PnR per Synergy. We should try to trade Grant for him.

It's not that Dakari looks slow, he looks like he doesn't know how to play. He needs to find himself on the NBA floor? What does that mean? Like the way Semaj needed to find himself? Come on man, if you are talking about slow lumbering throwback centers to be the 15th man on the roster, I'm taking Perk. Now if they can find someone out there that is avaialable to obtain with the assets at their disposal, I'm all for that. I was throwing out one cheap option that could potentially provide help in more ways than one.

[Pillendreher]

It's not that Dakari looks slow

He did look slow to me.

he looks like he doesn't know how to play. He needs to find himself on the NBA floor? What does that mean?

Let me rephrase it so we can maybe agree on this: He looked like the game was too fast for him.

'Find himself' I mean that he has to get aquainted with the NBA game. He spent his last two seasons in the D-League. This is as new situation just like every new job is for us, especially if it's our first real job.

Come on man, if you are talking about slow lumbering throwback centers to be the 15th man on the roster, I'm taking Perk

We need a backup Center to play minutes. That's our main objective - finding someone who can do that. Bringing back Perk out of nostalgia is fine, but he does not help our bench at all.

[Atomic Punk]

we can do much better than perk for the minimum. dakari is better than perk. we already have a roster sage who won't play (n. collison). don't need another.

Slick, I respect your basketball knowledge, but on no planet, in no alternate reality, is Dakari Johnson better than Kendrick Perkins. And yes, I am looking beyond the numbers and stats here. Intangibles do count in the NBA.

what value would perkins' "intangibles" have to the team? would they help the team perform better?

if we pursue another big man, it's going to be someone who can get onto the court. perkins shouldn't sniff the court at this point in his career. dakari would be superior. lavoy allen, david lee, roy hibbert, spencer hawes, and others would be better than perkins. a trade target like ajinca or perhaps ed davis would be better than perkins.

if nick wasn't already on the roster, ok. but we can't afford to have two big men cheerleaders.

I guess I should know better, without supporting, verifiable "data" no other argument matters to you. That's the whole point of intangibles dude, they are difficult to quantify, but they matter, and you can know and appreciate the value when you are able to recognize them.

[Atomic Punk]

It's not that Dakari looks slow

He did look slow to me.

he looks like he doesn't know how to play. He needs to find himself on the NBA floor? What does that mean?

Let me rephrase it so we can maybe agree on this: He looked like the game was too fast for him.

'Find himself' I mean that he has to get aquainted with the NBA game. He spent his last two seasons in the D-League. This is as new situation just like every new job is for us, especially if it's our first real job.

Come on man, if you are talking about slow lumbering throwback centers to be the 15th man on the roster, I'm taking Perk

We need a backup Center to play minutes. That's our main objective - finding someone who can do that. Bringing back Perk out of nostalgia is fine, but he does not help our bench at all.

Oh, don't get me wrong here, I am all for giving a guy like Dakari a chance, much like I was in favor with giving Semaj a chance. Hopefully Dakari will find success, and I agree that the situation is new to him so maybe he needs a little time.

I am not in favor of bringing back Perk out of nostalgia, I actually think he could help. Unless Presti pulls another rabbit out of his hat, I'm not sure there are many real "difference makers" out there. I could be wrong and I am fine with leaving that spot open for a while too.

[slick_watts]

I guess I should know better, without supporting, verifiable "data" no other argument matters to you. That's the whole point of intangibles dude, they are difficult to quantify, but they matter, and you can know and appreciate the value when you are able to recognize them.

which intangibles would perkins bring to the team that nick collison does not? if you can't quantify the effect of intangibles (a notion i disagree with), how can you know that perkins would be better for the team than dakari johnson?

[Atomic Punk]

I guess I should know better, without supporting, verifiable "data" no other argument matters to you. That's the whole point of intangibles dude, they are difficult to quantify, but they matter, and you can know and appreciate the value when you are able to recognize them.

which intangibles would perkins bring to the team that nick collison does not? if you can't quantify the effect of intangibles (a notion i disagree with), how can you know that perkins would be better for the team than dakari johnson?

I never said that Perk would bring intangibles to the team that Collison doesn't. Should there be a limit on that type of thing in your mind? Based on available, verifiable data, how can you know, or prove that Johnson would be "superior" to Perkins. I also never said that intangibles can't be quantified, I said it is difficult. And since you disagree, how do you quantify the effect of intangibles? Please provide examples.

[M2J]

I think the right backup center will come along by January at least. As some of the older, yet capable players get bought out they'll have their eyes on OKC's backup situation. In the meantime, a non-guaranteed contract to Perk wouldn't be the worst idea if you just need a banger, that can box out, and get fouls vs a few teams in the league, but there aren't too many he would be needed.

[Pillendreher]

but there aren't too many he would be needed.

I don't agree with this notion at all. We don't just need a backup Center to play every 5 weeks for 3 minutes. We need a backup Center

-to anchor the bench defensively.
-to have somebody who can come off the bench and provide Adams' physicality if he gets hurt or is in foultrouble
-to run some PnR with Felton

Grant is not a Center, period. And Patterson might be decent enough for a couple of minutes in certain situations, but he's not a 5 either. He also will likely miss some games and isn't a 'banger' like Adams at all.

If Dakari can not play 10-15 minutes a game, I'm not comfortable with our bench at all. We could have a very decent bench, but that's in jeopardy if we don't get what we need from the 5.

[slick_watts]

I never said that Perk would bring intangibles to the team that Collison doesn't. Should there be a limit on that type of thing in your mind?

just asking. i'm curious what you think kendrick perkins would bring to the team, and if it's any different than what nick does.

Based on available, verifiable data, how can you know, or prove that Johnson would be "superior" to Perkins.

perk was one of the worst in the league in 2014-15 and 2015-16 and didn't play last season. he's 33 so he's not going to get better. so unless you think dakari johnson would be a bottom 10-15 player in the nba, i think it's safe to assume he'd be better than perkins. and any gap that exists today will likely only get larger.

And since you disagree, how do you quantify the effect of intangibles? Please provide examples.

a famous example would be the pistons trading moody adrian dantley for affable and team-friendly mark aguirre. aguirre was noticeably less productive than dantley that year, but the team performance was better overall post trade with teammates crediting aguirre's presence on the team as a major factor.

other than obvious examples, it's simple. player x is on team x. player x is replaced by player y. team performance with player y is worse than team performance with player x taking into account relative individual productivity. the difference there could be construed as 'intangibles. obvious examples: nick collison, shane battier, etc. players regarded as having high 'intangibles' often rank highly in +/- metrics in a way that's not commensurate with their boxscore productivity.

for what it's worth, despite his renown in the nba, i don't think perkins offers much in the way of intangibles that affects on court performance. he's more of a team mascot. our defense got better when he arrived but in retrospect it's a lot easier to credit that change with ibaka starting and krstic leaving.

[Atomic Punk]

I never said that Perk would bring intangibles to the team that Collison doesn't. Should there be a limit on that type of thing in your mind?

just asking. i'm curious what you think kendrick perkins would bring to the team, and if it's any different than what nick does.

Based on available, verifiable data, how can you know, or prove that Johnson would be "superior" to Perkins.

perk was one of the worst in the league in 2014-15 and 2015-16 and didn't play last season. he's 33 so he's not going to get better. so unless you think dakari johnson would be a bottom 10-15 player in the nba, i think it's safe to assume he'd be better than perkins. and any gap that exists today will likely only get larger.

And since you disagree, how do you quantify the effect of intangibles? Please provide examples.

a famous example would be the pistons trading moody adrian dantley for affable and team-friendly mark aguirre. aguirre was noticeably less productive than dantley that year, but the team performance was better overall post trade with teammates crediting aguirre's presence on the team as a major factor.

other than obvious examples, it's simple. player x is on team x. player x is replaced by player y. team performance with player y is worse than team performance with player x taking into account relative individual productivity. the difference there could be construed as 'intangibles. obvious examples: nick collison, shane battier, etc. players regarded as having high 'intangibles' often rank highly in +/- metrics in a way that's not commensurate with their boxscore productivity.

for what it's worth, despite his renown in the nba, i don't think perkins offers much in the way of intangibles that affects on court performance. he's more of a team mascot. our defense got better when he arrived but in retrospect it's a lot easier to credit that change with ibaka starting and krstic leaving.

Slick, in a strange round about way, I think you and I agree here more than we disagree. I do not think that Perk would have a measurable impact on the boxsore. But I think he is more than a mascot. Based on comments made by coach Lue (and others) Perk holds people accountable. So yes, you can credit Ibaka starting and Kristic leaving, but do we completely discount Perkins influence on the defense when he arrived? Don't you think he could have a positive influence on a guy like Dakari? I think Perk and Collison bring similar intangibles, but I think Kendrick brings a toughness mentality that is probably different from Nick somewhat. I view Nick as being more the consummate professional type of influence.

[retrobro90]

Read on Twitter

We. Need. A. Backup. Center.

Don't waste another couple of weeks with this 'Oh, now we're cool too - let's go small' bs.

Like I said, go get Perk. If that's not an option, John Henson is available and the Thunder have a couple of trade exceptions. I mean what are we talking about here, 10-15 minutes a game? Barring injury, foul trouble, or certain matchups of course.

No to both please. Henson has been garbage for years now. Lost his backup role multiple times to guys like Spencer Hawes and Miles Plumlee. No one is scared of Henson. He can't rebound. He can't fight in the paint. He's not great defending the pnr despite his slight frame. He's pretty much only a shot a blocker and can do next to nothing else on defense. He's like Grant but without the 3 ball. Doesn't give us any type of look we can't already get. Even if his contract was 7mil less I probably wouldn't want him.

Perk can be on the staff but he can't play anymore.

[Atomic Punk]

Perkins, a lumbering defensive presence with pedestrian career averages of 5.4 points, 5.8 rebounds and 1.2 blocks per game, is widely considered the greatest teammate in modern NBA history. “He’s the type of guy that’s willing to do whatever it takes to help your teammates,” Russell Westbrook told The Crossover. “The thing that we all love about Perk,” adds Wizards coach Scott Brooks, “is that he cares. He has a big heart and he’s only about winning.” Perkins established a group text message with Durant and Westbrook upon arriving in Oklahoma City. “I didn’t know KD and Russ from a can of paint,” he says. “I just wanted to get it like how we had it in Boston.” They pinged the thread day and night, dishing football smack and NBA rumors. “We’re in it a lot,” Westbrook said back in April 2016, even after Perkins left the Thunder. “That’s the type of relationship we have [with him].” The group message has been silent following Durant’s departure to Oakland last summer. Perkins thinks it will resume activity in the future. “At least they’re talking to each other again,” he said. “I know they had talked right after they announced Russ won MVP. They texted. I think they broke the ice.”

ZARREN: There wasn’t a dry eye in the room when we agreed to that trade. RIVERS: I would say in the years that I’ve coached, it was the hardest trade for me. It was the hardest reaction that I’ve ever seen in a locker room as a coach. There were literally tears in the locker room. It was almost like a death. ALLEN: I was hurting for him, because I knew where his heart was. I knew he had only played for one team his whole career. He wanted what everybody else wanted. He wanted to be compensated, he wanted to make enough money so he could take care of his family. – via Sports Illustrated

MIKE GORMAN, CSNNE CELTICS PLAY-BY-PLAY: I always thought that a lot of KG’s bravado was backed up by the fact that, if you looked immediately over his right-hand shoulder, Perk was standing there. I always thought Perk was kind of the man behind the myth there. He had a cop standing right behind him to take care of business if things didn’t work out. – via Sports Illustrated

GARNETT: I love him. That’s my real life brother, man. We have a super strong connection. That bond will never be broken and I’d do anything for ‘em. WESTBROOK: He’s one of the most unselfish guys I know, just willing to sacrifice to help other people out. RIVERS: He’s a sunshine guy. There’s guys who bring sunshine. He’s one of those guys. – via Sports Illustrated

^^^^
This

[spearsy23]

We're seriously talking about filling a rotation hole with 450 year old kendrick Perkins?

[spearsy23]

Perkins, a lumbering defensive presence with pedestrian career averages of 5.4 points, 5.8 rebounds and 1.2 blocks per game, is widely considered the greatest teammate in modern NBA history. “He’s the type of guy that’s willing to do whatever it takes to help your teammates,” Russell Westbrook told The Crossover. “The thing that we all love about Perk,” adds Wizards coach Scott Brooks, “is that he cares. He has a big heart and he’s only about winning.” Perkins established a group text message with Durant and Westbrook upon arriving in Oklahoma City. “I didn’t know KD and Russ from a can of paint,” he says. “I just wanted to get it like how we had it in Boston.” They pinged the thread day and night, dishing football smack and NBA rumors. “We’re in it a lot,” Westbrook said back in April 2016, even after Perkins left the Thunder. “That’s the type of relationship we have [with him].” The group message has been silent following Durant’s departure to Oakland last summer. Perkins thinks it will resume activity in the future. “At least they’re talking to each other again,” he said. “I know they had talked right after they announced Russ won MVP. They texted. I think they broke the ice.”

ZARREN: There wasn’t a dry eye in the room when we agreed to that trade. RIVERS: I would say in the years that I’ve coached, it was the hardest trade for me. It was the hardest reaction that I’ve ever seen in a locker room as a coach. There were literally tears in the locker room. It was almost like a death. ALLEN: I was hurting for him, because I knew where his heart was. I knew he had only played for one team his whole career. He wanted what everybody else wanted. He wanted to be compensated, he wanted to make enough money so he could take care of his family. – via Sports Illustrated

MIKE GORMAN, CSNNE CELTICS PLAY-BY-PLAY: I always thought that a lot of KG’s bravado was backed up by the fact that, if you looked immediately over his right-hand shoulder, Perk was standing there. I always thought Perk was kind of the man behind the myth there. He had a cop standing right behind him to take care of business if things didn’t work out. – via Sports Illustrated

GARNETT: I love him. That’s my real life brother, man. We have a super strong connection. That bond will never be broken and I’d do anything for ‘em. WESTBROOK: He’s one of the most unselfish guys I know, just willing to sacrifice to help other people out. RIVERS: He’s a sunshine guy. There’s guys who bring sunshine. He’s one of those guys. – via Sports Illustrated

^^^^
This

Yes, we all know he's a great guy and locker room presence. We're taking about the final spot on our roster and filling a 15 minute gap in the rotation, that means the guy needs to actually be able to play basketball.

[Atomic Punk]

We're seriously talking about filling a rotation hole with 450 year old kendrick Perkins?

He is the same age as Melo, but ok. And are we talking about filling a rotation hole or filling a roster spot?

[spearsy23]

A-Mo was cut as well, let's go get him too. Fish is still in pretty decent shape. Is Kevin martin still alive? What's Byron mullens up to these days?

[Atomic Punk]

Perkins, a lumbering defensive presence with pedestrian career averages of 5.4 points, 5.8 rebounds and 1.2 blocks per game, is widely considered the greatest teammate in modern NBA history. “He’s the type of guy that’s willing to do whatever it takes to help your teammates,” Russell Westbrook told The Crossover. “The thing that we all love about Perk,” adds Wizards coach Scott Brooks, “is that he cares. He has a big heart and he’s only about winning.” Perkins established a group text message with Durant and Westbrook upon arriving in Oklahoma City. “I didn’t know KD and Russ from a can of paint,” he says. “I just wanted to get it like how we had it in Boston.” They pinged the thread day and night, dishing football smack and NBA rumors. “We’re in it a lot,” Westbrook said back in April 2016, even after Perkins left the Thunder. “That’s the type of relationship we have [with him].” The group message has been silent following Durant’s departure to Oakland last summer. Perkins thinks it will resume activity in the future. “At least they’re talking to each other again,” he said. “I know they had talked right after they announced Russ won MVP. They texted. I think they broke the ice.”

ZARREN: There wasn’t a dry eye in the room when we agreed to that trade. RIVERS: I would say in the years that I’ve coached, it was the hardest trade for me. It was the hardest reaction that I’ve ever seen in a locker room as a coach. There were literally tears in the locker room. It was almost like a death. ALLEN: I was hurting for him, because I knew where his heart was. I knew he had only played for one team his whole career. He wanted what everybody else wanted. He wanted to be compensated, he wanted to make enough money so he could take care of his family. – via Sports Illustrated

MIKE GORMAN, CSNNE CELTICS PLAY-BY-PLAY: I always thought that a lot of KG’s bravado was backed up by the fact that, if you looked immediately over his right-hand shoulder, Perk was standing there. I always thought Perk was kind of the man behind the myth there. He had a cop standing right behind him to take care of business if things didn’t work out. – via Sports Illustrated

GARNETT: I love him. That’s my real life brother, man. We have a super strong connection. That bond will never be broken and I’d do anything for ‘em. WESTBROOK: He’s one of the most unselfish guys I know, just willing to sacrifice to help other people out. RIVERS: He’s a sunshine guy. There’s guys who bring sunshine. He’s one of those guys. – via Sports Illustrated

^^^^
This

Yes, we all know he's a great guy and locker room presence. We're taking about the final spot on our roster and filling a 15 minute gap in the rotation, that means the guy needs to actually be able to play basketball.

Again, I will state my question clearly; What is the downside of bringing him in on a non-guaranteed vet minimum deal and see what he can do?

[Atomic Punk]

A-Mo was cut as well, let's go get him too. Fish is still in pretty decent shape. Is Kevin martin still alive? What's Byron mullens up to these days?

Point missed I see.

[spearsy23]

Perkins, a lumbering defensive presence with pedestrian career averages of 5.4 points, 5.8 rebounds and 1.2 blocks per game, is widely considered the greatest teammate in modern NBA history. “He’s the type of guy that’s willing to do whatever it takes to help your teammates,” Russell Westbrook told The Crossover. “The thing that we all love about Perk,” adds Wizards coach Scott Brooks, “is that he cares. He has a big heart and he’s only about winning.” Perkins established a group text message with Durant and Westbrook upon arriving in Oklahoma City. “I didn’t know KD and Russ from a can of paint,” he says. “I just wanted to get it like how we had it in Boston.” They pinged the thread day and night, dishing football smack and NBA rumors. “We’re in it a lot,” Westbrook said back in April 2016, even after Perkins left the Thunder. “That’s the type of relationship we have [with him].” The group message has been silent following Durant’s departure to Oakland last summer. Perkins thinks it will resume activity in the future. “At least they’re talking to each other again,” he said. “I know they had talked right after they announced Russ won MVP. They texted. I think they broke the ice.”

ZARREN: There wasn’t a dry eye in the room when we agreed to that trade. RIVERS: I would say in the years that I’ve coached, it was the hardest trade for me. It was the hardest reaction that I’ve ever seen in a locker room as a coach. There were literally tears in the locker room. It was almost like a death. ALLEN: I was hurting for him, because I knew where his heart was. I knew he had only played for one team his whole career. He wanted what everybody else wanted. He wanted to be compensated, he wanted to make enough money so he could take care of his family. – via Sports Illustrated

MIKE GORMAN, CSNNE CELTICS PLAY-BY-PLAY: I always thought that a lot of KG’s bravado was backed up by the fact that, if you looked immediately over his right-hand shoulder, Perk was standing there. I always thought Perk was kind of the man behind the myth there. He had a cop standing right behind him to take care of business if things didn’t work out. – via Sports Illustrated

GARNETT: I love him. That’s my real life brother, man. We have a super strong connection. That bond will never be broken and I’d do anything for ‘em. WESTBROOK: He’s one of the most unselfish guys I know, just willing to sacrifice to help other people out. RIVERS: He’s a sunshine guy. There’s guys who bring sunshine. He’s one of those guys. – via Sports Illustrated

^^^^
This

Yes, we all know he's a great guy and locker room presence. We're taking about the final spot on our roster and filling a 15 minute gap in the rotation, that means the guy needs to actually be able to play basketball.

Again, I will state my question clearly; What is the downside of bringing him in on a non-guaranteed vet minimum deal and see what he can do?

Having to watch him on the court.