The Official Allen Crabbe Thread

[Netaman]

Prok you said Crabbe was the worst defensive player in the league.

Its very obvious through 3 games that this is not the case.

Very fair point. The 2 main attacks were his defense being as bad or worse than the worst players in the NBA like Bogdonovic and Harris being dirt cheap, which doesn't make for a fair financial comparison. Of course Joe Harris doesn't command the salary Crabbe does, before signing here he had never even averaged 10 minutes per game. If he shoots 40% from 3 this year when he hits FA he will probably get close to $10M/year.

Crabbe is basically getting paid what they were rumoring to offer Reddick, except he's 8 years younger. His defensive potential is higher if maybe his offensive potential is a little lower. Plus they got rid of Nicholson's contract. I'm content with how things worked out especially given the injury to Lin.

[Prokorov]

Very fair point. The 2 main attacks were his defense being as bad or worse than the worst players in the NBA like Bogdonovic

He WAS among the worst defenders in the league. and that isnt just my opinion/popular opinion. it is backed up by statistical fact. he was bottom 5-10 in the entire league in DRAPM/DRPM each of the past 2 seasons, worse then kilpatrick, just above bogdanovic.

Last year we as 85th among 87 qualifying gaurds at -2.87. that was worse then kilpatrick (-2.36) and ahead 2 spots ahead of Bogs (-3.42) who was the leagues worst.

So again, lets not pretend i just pulled this "terrible defense" thing out of thin air. Blazers fans have said it, the stats confirm it.

I agree, that through 3 games, he hasnt looked like anything resembling a bad defender.

and Harris being dirt cheap, which doesn't make for a fair financial comparison. Of course Joe Harris doesn't command the salary Crabbe does, before signing here he had never even averaged 10 minutes per game. If he shoots 40% from 3 this year when he hits FA he will probably get close to $10M/year.

Before Crabbe got paid he was putting up the same numbers Harris did last year. Here is the season Crabbe came off when MArks gave him that huge offer sheet:

Crabbe the year before marks paid him

10.3 points 2.7 rebouds 1.2 assists on 39.3% three point shooting on 3.5 attemps per game in 25 minutes

Joe Harris last season:

8.2 points, 2.1 reboubds, 1.0 assists on 38.5% three point shooting on 4.3 attempts per game in 22 minutes

So year im sorry but Crabbe wasnt paid big money because he had some great season or was elite from three. he wasnt over 40% the year he got paid off of. Harris numbers are nearly identical. (better PER36) and while he did shoot 0.8% worse on threes it was on more volume.

Again, this is not something I just pulled out of thin air. These are the facts. Harris was every bit as good last year as crabbe was the year he got paid. so, my point was... why give crabbe 19 million when we have harris here on chump change.

also... no one is paying joe harris 10 million a year.

Crabbe is basically getting paid what they were rumoring to offer Reddick, except he's 8 years younger. His defensive potential is higher if maybe his offensive potential is a little lower. Plus they got rid of Nicholson's contract. I'm content with how things worked out especially given the injury to Lin.

Reddick is like 2-3 times the player crabbe is. Although I agree that reddick is also overpaid and while i would have prefered Reddick for sure I can see why most wouldnt want him either. But Reddick is a 15+ ppg scorer who shoots what crabbe does from three only he does it on twice the volume with more defensive focus on him.

Crabbe is one of the leagues worst contracts. it is billy king-esque not to get a pick back in that trade. Nicholson makes like 6 million a year. its not like he was some crippling contract.

again, thats not a criticism of crabbe, its a criticism of marks. No bench role player is turning down all-star money after a blah season

[steady]

The degree of difficulty on the last two threes Crabbe got last night was really high. They were both taken in clutch situations. Crabbe had to work hard to get himself free. The FG percentages don't reflect that. Just basing the comparison on numbers misses things like this.

Edit - and Prok, isn't what has made Sean Marks so great as GM, his ability to spot talent and potential to go to another level, where others didn't

Caris LeVert is good example. Taking him at 21 pick when most teams had him in second round. I agree with you Crabbe was a gamble - but Marks has consistently taken gambles and he has often been right. I remember a Tyler Johnson's offer sheet was also laughed at at the time but he has totally earned that salary for Heat

[MrDollarBills]

Prok did you see the play last night where he caught the ball at the 3PT line, defender tried to run him down and he blew right by the dude for a score at the basket? He needs to be challenged to put the ball on the floor and attack like that multiple times a game.

[Netaman]

Well if the expectations through FA are higher than Crabbe/Reddick, then after 2 years they are just unrealistic. I mean, we tried and failed overpaying Bazemore last year. We've literally tried and failed at every UFA except Lin - who had a unique relationship with Atkinson.

We know we aren't trading any of our young assets. We know the story with RFA's.

So how else do we use our cap room? SALARY DUMPS. Let's face it, the only way we are getting players is if they have big salaries and other teams need cap room. If they aren't at least slightly overpaid we aren't getting them. I'd wager that Marks has investigated EVERY SINGLE potential salary dump player on the trade block and likewise every team with a player to dump called us first. We had our pick of all them and he chose the best possible deals.

Which brings us full circle to why taking on Crabbe's very manageable 3 years (and deducting Nicholson) was a relatively low risk financial gamble because the alternative was...flexibility to hope next season multiple FA's consider us again? They still have plenty of flexibility to do whatever they need to do and this year we got one of the best 3 point shooters in the NBA to help win games like he did yesterday. The fact that he also seems to fit from a personality standpoint is great and if he has truly turned back the clock on his defense makes it a homerun. Just like the Carroll deal. Salary dumps that brought us very good players and value beyond the players themselves (picks in the Carroll deal, dumping Nicholson in the Crabbe deal). And we didn't even need to lose Joe Harris in the process.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Crabbe was not good on defense last year, but what we kept telling you was that this could be changed.

We knew Crabbe had the potential to be a decent defender. But you kept insisting that he would be terrible.

As far as Harris, I'll admit that I was saying he was a scrub. Last year he did not play as well as Crabbe. He shot 42% from the field despite being known as a shooter.

However, he has looked far better these first 3 games. If he keeps this up I'm sure he will get a bigger contact this off season.

That's not a knock on Crabbe. It will just prove Harris is vastly underpaid.

[Netaman]

I liked Harris last year and was right there with you saying he was a poor man's Crabbe at poor man's prices. But Harris was (and is) far from a proven commodity. Last year was his first year getting meaningful action and he had numerous injuries. He also didn't shoot an elite percentage.

Crabbe has posted 2 full seasons as an elite shooter and from a projection standpoint his length/athleticism gives him a lot more upside, particularly on defense. I am very happy to have both of them and the difference in contract doesn't stop me from appreciating that. If Harris shoots over 40% their contracts won't be so different after he hits FA. He's only cheap because we signed him basically as a dleaguer.

[MGrand15]

Prok did you see the play last night where he caught the ball at the 3PT line, defender tried to run him down and he blew right by the dude for a score at the basket? He needs to be challenged to put the ball on the floor and attack like that multiple times a game.

Plays like that totally separate him from someone like Joe Harris. Not saying he's 20 million dollars better, but his size and athleticism is a lot more impressive than I expected. You can see it on defense and on those high degree of difficult 3s.

[MrDollarBills]

^^yep. homeboy was putting those long arms to use, getting blocks at the 3pt line too

[kamaze]

Is Prok going to spend all year trying to convince us Harris is just as good as Crabbe?

Watch on YouTube

Joe can't take anyone off the dribble, get steals, make a nice pass off the dribble either nut he keeps saying Joe Harris (who was out of the rotation btw) is just as good as him. But it's not an individual sport they both can play.

[Prokorov]

Prok did you see the play last night where he caught the ball at the 3PT line, defender tried to run him down and he blew right by the dude for a score at the basket? He needs to be challenged to put the ball on the floor and attack like that multiple times a game.

from the right wing in for the layup?

yes. and agreed we need more of that. also needs to hit that 18 foot pull up after the pump + 1 dribble

[MrDollarBills]

yep. it was the first score of the game for him. he's got to use his shooting prowess to his advantage by catching guys off balance. hard to change direction when you're running out to put a hand in someone's face that knocks down threes at a 40% clip

[Prokorov]

Well if the expectations through FA are higher than Crabbe/Reddick, then after 2 years they are just unrealistic. I mean, we tried and failed overpaying Bazemore last year. We've literally tried and failed at every UFA except Lin - who had a unique relationship with Atkinson.

The alternative to "not getting good free agents" shouldnt be throwing huge all star money at second round pick bench players. I was very much against the bazemore contract offer as well. We should have just kept the cap room to make more Carrole + first or D.Russell type trades using cap an asset to aquire picks and young talent.

We know we aren't trading any of our young assets. We know the story with RFA's.

We have our own RFAs coming up if we dont extend russell/levert/RHJ. which if we keep all 3 will max us out now with crabbe also on a big deal.

So how else do we use our cap room? SALARY DUMPS. Let's face it, the only way we are getting players is if they have big salaries and other teams need cap room. If they aren't at least slightly overpaid we aren't getting them. I'd wager that Marks has investigated EVERY SINGLE potential salary dump player on the trade block and likewise every team with a player to dump called us first. We had our pick of all them and he chose the best possible deals.

its not a use it or lose it thing. rolling it over so that we still have cap room after extending our own young players is a route id have much preferred. Next offseason when we have to decide to give RHJ huge money or let him go to RFA, the realization of why that cap matters will be more clear. those who know the cap projections for us are already aware. I spelled this out in the cap thread i made.

Which brings us full circle to why taking on Crabbe's very manageable 3 years (and deducting Nicholson) was a relatively low risk financial gamble because the alternative was...flexibility to hope next season multiple FA's consider us again? They still have plenty of flexibility to do whatever they need to do and this year we got one of the best 3 point shooters in the NBA to help win games like he did yesterday. The fact that he also seems to fit from a personality standpoint is great and if he has truly turned back the clock on his defense makes it a homerun. Just like the Carroll deal. Salary dumps that brought us very good players and value beyond the players themselves (picks in the Carroll deal, dumping Nicholson in the Crabbe deal). And we didn't even need to lose Joe Harris in the process.

We actually have next to 0 flexibility. we are right at the cap. And we had a great 3 point shooter in Harris here already making peanuts. It was a really bad trade. potentially an awful one.

[Prokorov]

As far as Harris, I'll admit that I was saying he was a scrub. Last year he did not play as well as Crabbe. He shot 42% from the field despite being known as a shooter.

However, he has looked far better these first 3 games. If he keeps this up I'm sure he will get a bigger contact this off season.

That's not a knock on Crabbe. It will just prove Harris is vastly underpaid.

Harris wont get a 4 year deal for what crabbe will make in 1 year. let along some big 10-20 million per year offer. because people dont pay role playing bench shooters all-star money. which is why its so absurd marks made him the offer and why portland was trying to dump him 1 year into that contract.

Again, Harris numbers last year are in line/nearly identical to the numbers crabbe posted the year marks paid him on. These are facts not opinions.

Harris is also not really playing any different then he did last year. 8/3/1 in 20ish minutes on 3-4 threes a game. obviously his 3point percentage will be closer to 40% with a higher sample (currently at 57%).

but this isnt some "new" Joe Harris. this is who he was last year and this is who crabbe was when marks paid him

[Prokorov]

I liked Harris last year and was right there with you saying he was a poor man's Crabbe at poor man's prices. But Harris was (and is) far from a proven commodity. Last year was his first year getting meaningful action and he had numerous injuries. He also didn't shoot an elite percentage.

That was my point with the Crabbe signing though. Crabbe was not a proven commodity when Marks gave him that huge deal either. Both Crabbe and Harris had their first solid year in year 3. Marks paid Crabbe after his third season. that season crabbe had very similar numbers to what harris did last year (harris third year).

Crabbe has posted 2 full seasons as an elite shooter and from a projection standpoint his length/athleticism gives him a lot more upside, particularly on defense. I am very happy to have both of them and the difference in contract doesn't stop me from appreciating that.

No he hasnt. He posted 1 season as an elite shooter (and even then it was huge volume). The year before he was good but not elite (39.3%)

Last season was Crabbe's first full season over 40% from three (he only played 15 games his rookie year and took just 14 attempts on the season)

Crabbe was: 35.3, 39.3, 44.4 from three the last 3 years.

If Harris shoots over 40% their contracts won't be so different after he hits FA. He's only cheap because we signed him basically as a dleague

No he wont. and its absurd to think that. you dont give bench shooters all-star money. which is why portland wanted to dump crabbe after 1 year.

[Prokorov]

Is Prok going to spend all year trying to convince us Harris is just as good as Crabbe?

Watch on YouTube

Joe can't take anyone off the dribble, get steals, make a nice pass off the dribble either nut he keeps saying Joe Harris (who was out of the rotation btw) is just as good as him. But it's not an individual sport they both can play.

I dont have to convince anyone. the stats speak/will speak for themselves. it is an undisputable fact that Harris last year was as good as crabbe in his 3rd year (the year Marks paid Crabbe on).

I'm aware they can both play. I'd just prefer that we use all-star money on things that have value instead of using them on role playing bench guys. I like crabbe, but like harris, he is what he is. a role player. It would be one thing if we got a first rounder along with crabbe in order to take on his salary. but that was not the case.

[Hello Brooklyn]

As far as Harris, I'll admit that I was saying he was a scrub. Last year he did not play as well as Crabbe. He shot 42% from the field despite being known as a shooter.

However, he has looked far better these first 3 games. If he keeps this up I'm sure he will get a bigger contact this off season.

That's not a knock on Crabbe. It will just prove Harris is vastly underpaid.

Again, Harris numbers last year are in line/nearly identical to the numbers crabbe posted the year marks paid him on. These are facts not opinions.

Harris is also not really playing any different then he did last year. 8/3/1 in 20ish minutes on 3-4 threes a game. obviously his 3point percentage will be closer to 40% with a higher sample (currently at 57%).

but this isnt some "new" Joe Harris. this is who he was last year and this is who crabbe was when marks paid him

Your delusion knows no bounds and you refuse to look at anything objectively.

You have decided that Joe Harris is as good as Crabbe and nothing in the world will ever change your mind.

I'll post the stats in the thread again so other people in the thread can see how wrong you are. Because obviously you are a lost cause and everyone else on the forum thinks you are wrong.

Allen Crabbe last year

13.7 PPG on 47% shooting and 44% from 3.

He was an extremely efficient on offense and had one of the best 3 point percentages in the entire NBA.

Joe Harris last year

8 PPG on 42% shooting and 39% from 3

So basically he was terribly inefficient on offense and the only think he was asked to do was make wide open shots. Even from 3 he wasn't great. Shooters generally shoot 40+ on 3 pointers. Harris couldn't even do that.

These two are not the same no matter how much you want them to be.

[Netaman]

Prok - I think we've exhausted the Crabbe debate at this point, but below are 2 points I'd clarify that we disagree on that aren't directly related to Crabbe's skills. I'd hope at some point you can just take a small step back and acknowledge that if Crabbe plays the way he has in these first 3 games he's not only worth what he's being paid but that it was a trade on the level of the other 2 dumps. Does he have the long term potential of Russell? Nope. Is it a little riskier than the Carroll deal due to the extra year? Sure. But compared to Carroll he's younger, a better scorer and has more upside. And he got us rid of Nicholson's deal.

As far as the 2 points we differ on:

The alternative to "not getting good free agents" shouldnt be throwing huge all star money at second round pick bench players. I was very much against the bazemore contract offer as well. We should have just kept the cap room to make more Carrole + first or D.Russell type trades using cap an asset to aquire picks and young talent.

First, if there were better trades to make, don't you think Marks would have done them? Second, next summer we'd have the flexibility to make both of the trades you mentioned again if they are available. The DLo trade was basically cap neutral since we dealt Lopez as an impending FA and we will have enough cap room to take a dump the size of Carroll's simply by letting Booker expire. Lin not opting out will reduce some flexibility but even still both he and Carroll will be expiring contracts if there's a team desperate to dump an inflated contract (for example Otto Porter).

We actually have next to 0 flexibility. we are right at the cap. And we had a great 3 point shooter in Harris here already making peanuts. It was a really bad trade. potentially an awful one.

Again, I partially answered this above but you're idea of 0 flexibility is completely backwards. Lets forget this year because obviously the cap doesn't matter right now with nobody available to sign. They may not even use our DPE. Next June they will be starting with at least $15M in cap space ($80M committed as of now) and $28M in expiring contracts (Lin + Carroll). Crabbe will have 2 years and $37M remaining. Mozgov will have 2 years $33M remaining. Neither of those deals is at all crippling. Again, Lin not opting out certainly makes things a little harder because they won't be able to afford a max without making 1 move (if they even plan to try to offer a max) but I think you are very much overstating the issue with extensions and raises. Those will mostly kick in when Mozgov and Carroll expire.

[kamaze]

Is Prok going to spend all year trying to convince us Harris is just as good as Crabbe?

Watch on YouTube

Joe can't take anyone off the dribble, get steals, make a nice pass off the dribble either nut he keeps saying Joe Harris (who was out of the rotation btw) is just as good as him. But it's not an individual sport they both can play.

I dont have to convince anyone. the stats speak/will speak for themselves. it is an undisputable fact that Harris last year was as good as crabbe in his 3rd year (the year Marks paid Crabbe on).

I'm aware they can both play. I'd just prefer that we use all-star money on things that have value instead of using them on role playing bench guys. I like crabbe, but like harris, he is what he is. a role player. It would be one thing if we got a first rounder along with crabbe in order to take on his salary. but that was not the case.

Did you even look at the clip? Oh I get it you're the type that sees what he wants and is too stubborn to admit the sky is blue bc he has shades on. Take them off and you'll see things for what they are not what you want it to be.

Anyway it's only a 3 year deal by then the books will be clear and they can use more of the standard route to build the team. Marks had to take on salary and overspend to bring talent in. Wouldn't want to max out their potential before they get their lottery picks back.
In Brooklyn's offense shooting is more valuable than a traditional power forward.

[Netaman]

No he hasnt. He posted 1 season as an elite shooter (and even then it was huge volume). The year before he was good but not elite (39.3%)

By your own standards you acknowledge Crabbe was an elite shooter for at least 1 year and Joe Harris has at his best been a good but not elite shooter. If you applied your own standards objectively at least.