Fultz vs. Tatum: What do you think now?

[Andrew McCeltic]

Not sure what's up with Fultz - it's really, really really early for all of these guys. So far, though, we're seeing confirmation there was an "even" top of the draft. It's not Fultz vs. Tatum, it's Tatum vs. Ball vs. Fox vs. Lauri, for me.

You could wonder what we'd have been like drafting Ball first, trading IT for, say, Aaron Gordon, and signing Hayward..

Tatum is legit, Lonzo is legit, Fox is a little further away, but legit. And Lauri, surprisingly, has looked really good so far - I remember talking out with a couple of you why he wasn't a top 3 pick in the pre-draft last season.

Remember, though, too - this was a shortened preseason, there's a lot of sloppy basketball being played right now, kind of a track meet. We'll see if that sticks the whole season - but some of these guys are going to be exposed more if defenses kick into a higher gear.

[ParticleMan]

fultz will be a playa... once he leaves philly. that org is a study in mismanagement over the last few years, and BC doesn't seem to be helping.

meanwhile he needs to tell his agent to STFU. why is his agent even talking about injuries? should be left to the team.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Tatum’s length has been impressive on defensive end and with rebounding. Draftnik’s totally missed the boat on what a difference maker that would be. We all hoped Baynes or Zizic would solve our rebounding woes but it has been Tatum that is getting it done. And they aren’t cheapies like AB’s last year.

To pat myself on the back, I was all over him being good defensively last year and defended him mightily on the board. Despite being called a clown for telling a user he was wrong, too. Feel real good about that read.

Of the more mainstream guys, Kevin O’Connor and Sam Vecenie had him nailed pretty solid as well.

[IBelieveInBrad]

Don't overthink this. Fultz is injured. When his shoulder heals, he will grow to become a genuine problem for the rest of the NBA.

Im not saying he is guaranteed to develop into a better player than Jayson Tatum will. But he's gonna be a top 30 player in this league some day, unless there's something irreparable about his shoulder.

[LongTimeFan]

It isn't just the raw talent that counts, it is how they develop.

Tatum has hit the mother lode of the development mine. He is on a contending team with a great set of veterans and with a great coach who maximizes a player's utility. And with Haywood's injury, his skill set is needed, almost desperately. His development trajectory looks magnificent. If we had Fultz, ???????

Fultz is another high draft pick in Philly who is injured. Is it me or does Philly only draft "snowflakes"? When is one of their high picks going to man up? It seems to me he is treading water on his rookie contract. Maybe he'll get over this injury and start to develop into an NBA player and reach his potential. Maybe?

[Brett43]

The question is "What do you think now?"

I think we all have to be pretty happy about Tatum. He's a really good player, and I feel more sure about him than I was about Brown last year. I feel like we landed a young Paul Pierce. They are not the same player, but that's the kind of talent in Tatum. And he could be better than that. How can you be disappointed with that?

As for Fultz - I see nothing so far to indicate that he will be better than Tatum. Maybe he will impress more down the road.

The more interesting "What if?" to me is now playing for LA. What if we had taken Lonzo at #1 instead of trading for Irving? Are we better with rookie Tatum and Kyrie Irving at the point, than with rookie Lonzo, Crowder, rookie Zizic and injured Isiah Thomas? Yes. But how good will Lonzo be?

[Writebloc]

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/10/25/16542912/markelle-fultz-sixers-shoulder-medical

The Markelle Fultz Fiasco Is the Sixers’ Own Doing
The no. 1 overall pick has been piled on for his recent shooting and shoulder issues, but the organization’s handling of its prized rookie and his current situation deserves a harder look

Markelle Fultz has become an easy target. The no. 1 pick shoots like Shaq. He has air-balled free throws. He hasn’t attempted any 3s. He has missed 13 of 16 shots taken outside of the restricted area. There’s no denying that the Sixers’ rookie point guard has been an eyesore. But the barbs all feel misdirected. The Philadelphia 76ers organization should take the brunt of the blow, not a teenager.

Fultz received a cortisone shot in his right shoulder on October 5 to relieve pain and inflammation, according to ESPN. Fultz told me on October 9 that the injury motivated him to change his shooting mechanics.

If the injury is serious enough to cause Fultz to change his freaking shooting form and get a cortisone shot, why is he even playing? We don’t have an answer because there’s still so much that we don’t know, such as how Fultz sustained the injury, what the injury even is, or when he’ll be fully recovered. Time and time again, the Sixers have mismanaged the injuries of their players—or, at best, bungled the public relations around them.

For instance, injury timelines have been all over the place. Michael Carter-Williams underwent surgery on his labrum in May 2014, and by the start of the 2014-15 season in October the team still hadn’t set a timeline for his return. Ben Simmons had foot surgery in 2016, but the team refused to set a timeline at all. The Sixers said in March 2016 that Jahlil Okafor’s knee injury was supposed to be a six-week recovery, but he was still experiencing discomfort nearly one year later.

Philadelphia has even (allegedly) misdiagnosed injuries. Kwame Brown claimed the Sixers misdiagnosed the injury that ended his career, saying he had a mild hamstring injury when it was actually an “avulsion fracture.”

There’s no better example of their mishandling than Joel Embiid, who suffered a left knee contusion on January 20 last season. GM Bryan Colangelo “guessed” it was a bone bruise on January 22. Then, on January 27, Embiid “had to convince” the Sixers medical staff to let him play against the Rockets. It was Embiid’s final game of the season. Weeks later, on February 11, Colangelo admitted the MRI that took place after the initial injury on January 20 revealed not only a bone bruise, but a “very minor meniscal tear.” It wasn’t until March that the Sixers announced Embiid would undergo meniscus surgery.

In other words, the Sixers allowed Embiid to play with a bone bruise and a meniscal tear, with full knowledge of the injuries. Now Fultz has played in six games this October (including two preseason games) with a shoulder injury that is severely limiting his play, which has led to increased scrutiny from fans and media.

Colangelo said in April that the team had worked on its transparency and would continue to. Um, sure. Colangelo has been silent regarding this fiasco going back to September 27, during a training camp scrimmage when we first saw Fultz shooting free throws like Charles Barkley swings a golf club. We’ve heard from only Brett Brown, who, as head coach, is tasked with facing the media on a daily basis. In late September, Brown said Fultz “made some personal adjustments” with his trainer, and the team would look to “recalibrate and get it back.” Then on October 10, Brown admitted Fultz’s shoulder “is affecting him more than he lets on.”

I’ve heard different theories this month that Fultz’s issues are more mental than physical. Even if Fultz isn’t at risk of damaging his shoulder any further, why not allow him the time to heal completely? How is it that the Sixers exercised so much patience with Simmons last season and don’t allow Embiid to play in back-to-backs, yet they play Fultz even though he’s hurting? Given the pressures of today’s league, and the heavy expectations placed on a no. 1 pick, you’d think they’d be more cautious about throwing him into the fire, which has worked to only magnify any concerns.

The Sixers need to pour every resource possible into putting Fultz into the best position to succeed. Take away his Chick-fil-A. Make sure his shoulder is healthy. Fix his shooting form rather than expose and embarrass him in front of the masses. The team invested a lot in Fultz by trading up with the no. 3 pick and a protected Lakers first-rounder in 2018, which would turn into a top-one-protected Kings first in 2019 if it doesn’t convey, so why aren’t they operating like he’s a prized possession?

Sometimes, a top-ranked player doesn’t pan out. Take Anthony Bennett, who went no. 1 overall in 2013. A league source told me earlier this year that Bennett has one of the worst work ethics they’ve ever encountered. Ex-Cavaliers general manager David Griffin recently owned up to the mistake of drafting Bennett, taking the blame out of the hands of then-GM Chris Grant. “I’m the one who got sold the bill of goods and I bought it hook, line, and sinker,” said Griffin, then the VP of basketball ops. “You **** up sometimes.”

But the environment in which a player is fostered also matters. An NBA executive told me he thinks most of the “busts” in league history are actually the fault of the team or the situation, not the player. Either the team fails to provide the necessary resources for the player to succeed, or the situation itself just leads to an unfortunate result.

Fultz could be a lemon, but he’s no Bennett. All indications are that Fultz is a good kid, a hard worker, and he wants to be successful. We’re only four games into his NBA career. I’m not panicking. Neither should you. He was the consensus no. 1 prospect for good reason. But those factors don’t guarantee he’ll achieve his full potential. So far, the Philadelphia 76ers have failed Markelle Fultz.

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

Holy **** at Bryan Colangelo throwing Fultz under the bus. Imagine doing that to the #1 overall pick in the draft, a guy who you traded some valuable assets for. What a POS. If I'm Fultz, I'd probably be contacting the Players' Union at this point.

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Holy cow. To come out and say "Hey, we didn't tell him to change his shot!" is just terrible. Why not just man up and say "We misdiagnosed his injury, so now we're going to let him rest"? I feel bad for the kid now.

[Slartibartfast]

LOL at Philly. Simmons looking great, Embiid rounding into dominant form, outrageous amounts of future cap space, some excellent assets still on their way and this is the media narrative they stumble into?

[Slartibartfast]

The question is "What do you think now?"

I think we all have to be pretty happy about Tatum. He's a really good player, and I feel more sure about him than I was about Brown last year. I feel like we landed a young Paul Pierce. They are not the same player, but that's the kind of talent in Tatum. And he could be better than that. How can you be disappointed with that?

As for Fultz - I see nothing so far to indicate that he will be better than Tatum. Maybe he will impress more down the road.

The more interesting "What if?" to me is now playing for LA. What if we had taken Lonzo at #1 instead of trading for Irving? Are we better with rookie Tatum and Kyrie Irving at the point, than with rookie Lonzo, Crowder, rookie Zizic and injured Isiah Thomas? Yes. But how good will Lonzo be?

The Lakers are playing garbage ball. One long extended sequence of garbage time. I wouldn't pay any attention to Ball's stats this year - like Kendall Marshall playing for D'Antoni.

[Writebloc]

Holy **** at Bryan Colangelo throwing Fultz under the bus. Imagine doing that to the #1 overall pick in the draft, a guy who you traded some valuable assets for. What a POS. If I'm Fultz, I'd probably be contacting the Players' Union at this point.
Holy cow. To come out and say "Hey, we didn't tell him to change his shot!" is just terrible. Why not just man up and say "We misdiagnosed his injury, so now we're going to let him rest"? I feel bad for the kid now.

You'd think as an organization you'd want to let this controversy die as opposed to fanning the flames and dragging it out in the media. What purpose does this serve? But if you read through his comments it's not that they misdiagnosed the injury, according to the 76er's still there is no injury? Colangelo just comes off as an egomaniac that needs to be right where as you say in your quote he should be looking out for the best interest of his player and the asset.

[Homerclease]

Fire Ainge get BC here right now. How could you not want this guy

[Green89]

If Fultz has the Yips, his career could be in jeopardy. This injury and how it's been handled and reported is very, very strange.

[Slartibartfast]

Holy **** at Bryan Colangelo throwing Fultz under the bus. Imagine doing that to the #1 overall pick in the draft, a guy who you traded some valuable assets for. What a POS. If I'm Fultz, I'd probably be contacting the Players' Union at this point.
Holy cow. To come out and say "Hey, we didn't tell him to change his shot!" is just terrible. Why not just man up and say "We misdiagnosed his injury, so now we're going to let him rest"? I feel bad for the kid now.

You'd think as an organization you'd want to let this controversy die as opposed to fanning the flames and dragging it out in the media. What purpose does this serve? But if you read through his comments it's not that they misdiagnosed the injury, according to the 76er's still there is no injury? Colangelo just comes off as an egomaniac that needs to be right where as you say in your quote he should be looking out for the best interest of his player and the asset.

BC is the new ThanksDad.

Insane that Mr. Treadmill got to inherit the (ill-gotten) fruits of the Process.

[ryaningf]

Well, Woj just confirmed the world's worst kept secret - that Fultz is injured. It will be interesting to hear the Sixers medical staff explain why they let him try to play through that injury.

It's probably bursitis. It's not like playing is going to do long-term damage.

Sorta like plantar fasciitis. People play through that all the time, it just limits some of the things they can do.

Interesting. I was told you need to rest from doing the movement that causes the pain to allow the inflammation to go down and healing to occur. Maybe the change in shot mechanics is an attempt to do that and/or more recent medical advice is different.

Edit - To clarify i am not a medical expert. Just what is was told by a physio quite a few years ago.

It depends on the movement and the nature of the injury but, in general, movement promotes blood flow and blood flow promotes healing. Always be moving.

***
I don't know what happened with Fultz but I'll guess anyway. He had mysterious swelling in his knee all last year, and had a lot of downtime (especially after they shut him down for the year) and in the run up to the draft seemed to have really bulked up in his upper body. It's pretty easy to bulk up the upper body in a short time if you've never lifted much, and it looked from social media pictures that Markelle got ripped. Muscle fibers grow 6 times faster than tendons, and so when you put on that much muscle that fast you tend to inflame the tendons, and develop tendonitis or other joint/tendon dysfunction because the muscles are putting a load on the tendons that they haven't adapted to yet. In this case, the joint is structurally sound but there's swelling in the joint as the tendons scramble to adapt to the new load demands.

***

Injecting cortisone into the shoulder at this point in Fultz's career is borderline malpractice. While I tend to be very conservative about most medical interventions (the body heals itself in most instances if you give it time and support), I'm really just struggling to see the upside in this treatment here. It's the preseason, he's a rookie, and the pain has caused him to alter his pattern of movement, and the resulting neurological, physiological, and psychological adaptions may prove hard to re-train in the long run. It's almost as if they're letting the previous injuries to Simmons and Embiid influence Fultz's treatment protocol. If he was a vet and it was the playoffs, okay, I see some argument for shooting him up. But as a rookie in the preseason? HELL NO.

***

I never really cared for Fultz as a prospect. The skills and athleticism are self evident (i was marveling during the most recent game about his top end speed when changing ends, he looked even faster than Jaylen), but I hated his personality and leadership skills. He's just very passive, with a flat affect, and seems prone to suggestability (he just goes with the flow and loyally/blindly follows others). I think that's a bad mix for your potential franchise lead guard, and it also gives his career a high degree of variability. If he lands in a good situation, he'll probably get the good cues and advice and progress appropriately, but if he doesn't he could plateau or crater. I don't think Philly is an ideal environment for him.

***

I've always been interested in what separates those of us who can play effectively through pain and those of us who can't. Pain is not simply a physical phenomenon, it is a subject experience that lives in the brain. This is why the pain response differs so radically from person to person. The physical component plays a part in the initial perception, but the biggest part is the neurological aspect.

Going back to Fultz's flat affect and passivity, there's a component of polyvagal theory that may be of interest here. Basically polyvagal theory states that the vagus nerve serves as a governor on several different bodily functions. For example, under normal circumstances the vagus nerve limits the amount of muscular power you can recruit at any one time so as to protect your tendons from snapping. But in times of stress, the vagus nerve will switch that governor to the off position and allow you to recruit all of your muscular power. This is why mothers have been known to lift a car off the ground and free their children who are pinned underneath, or why you can perform super human athletic feats when your life is threatened.

In athletes, this vagal tone is particularly developed and allows them to toggle between relaxed and tense states very quickly. In an athletic arena, skill is expressed in relaxed states and pure athleticism is expressed in tense states so the people who can toggle the quickest between these 2 states are often the best players. (FWIW, if you're wondering how developed your own vagal tone is, you can now test it at home with a heart rate monitor and an app that tests your heart rate variability (HRV). Athletes tend to have very high HRVs).

But the vagal tone is also expressed in social and emotional regulation too. In other words, you can "read" someone's vagal tone in their face and in how they speak. The more threats they're perceiving, the more tense they'll appear, the more monotone they'll speak and the more passive they will appear. The less they perceive threat, the more relaxed and melodious they'll be.

What does this have to do with Fultz? I think his passivity, flat affect, and sleepy eyes are manifestations of a threat perception system that's been permanently left in the on position. Whether this is because he has a history of trauma, who knows. Whatever the case, he seems particularly sensitive to threat, and may be contributing to his inability to play through pain. I mean, just look at his form:

Spoiler:

As he brings his arm up, he's pausing briefly to shift his weight to the left, then cocks his head like a kid aiming a gun for the first time, then raises his right shoulder slightly and continues into his shot. These are some very severe neurological adaptions to the perception of the pain coming from his shoulder.

This is a guy who needs to be treated with kids gloves when it comes to injuries, somebody who may be overly injury prone, not because of physical reasons but because his pain perception system is very sensitive. And he went to a team with a long history of bad decisions when it comes to managing injuries!

***

It's unfair, but Fultz is already a bust. There are busts who simply can't play like Anthony Bennett and then busts who can play but can't fit well within the confines of team ball like Michael Beasley and then there are busts who simply don't live up to expectations but are still pretty good like Evan Turner. Fultz is gonna be in camp 2 or 3 because he's had some unfair expectations, landed in a poor developmental situation, and his passivity is gonna make it very difficult for him to right the course by himself.

***

TL;DR version: I think we dodged a major bullet. Fultz was overhyped and Danny used that hype to extract an asset and still get the guy he liked best. Boston may have been the best developmental spot for Fultz, but Fultz was not close to the best guy available, either in terms of role available in Boston or in terms of best player available. And while I don't think Tatum was the best player available either, I think he's damn good and likely Danny's best pick ever.

[Jakeopp]

fultz will be a playa... once he leaves philly. that org is a study in mismanagement over the last few years, and BC doesn't seem to be helping.

meanwhile he needs to tell his agent to STFU. why is his agent even talking about injuries? should be left to the team.

The Sixers have pretty much proven to incompetent at handling injuries by now.

[ryaningf]

The question is "What do you think now?"

I think we all have to be pretty happy about Tatum. He's a really good player, and I feel more sure about him than I was about Brown last year. I feel like we landed a young Paul Pierce. They are not the same player, but that's the kind of talent in Tatum. And he could be better than that. How can you be disappointed with that?

As for Fultz - I see nothing so far to indicate that he will be better than Tatum. Maybe he will impress more down the road.

The more interesting "What if?" to me is now playing for LA. What if we had taken Lonzo at #1 instead of trading for Irving? Are we better with rookie Tatum and Kyrie Irving at the point, than with rookie Lonzo, Crowder, rookie Zizic and injured Isiah Thomas? Yes. But how good will Lonzo be?

The Lakers are playing garbage ball. One long extended sequence of garbage time. I wouldn't pay any attention to Ball's stats this year - like Kendall Marshall playing for D'Antoni.

Luke Walton has been really disappointing as an offensive coach. They're not really running anything other than P&R, & they probably have one of the simplest and easiest to defend offenses in the league. You'd think Walton woulda picked something up from Golden State but he really didn't.

I think you're too quick to dismiss what Ball's gonna do this year. He played in a great college system last year that really played to his strengths. He's not going to have that advantage this year, and he's doing it against professionals and some of them are quite motivated to shut his dad up. He's gonna go thru the fire for sure.

This is nothing like D'Antoni's system, D'Antoni is actually a good offensive coach. Walton's non-system approach is not gonna inflate anyone's stats. If anything, it's gonna depress them. Ball's still gonna put up numbers in spite of it, though, because he's a great player.

[3D Chess]

In athletes, this vagal tone is particularly developed and allows them to toggle between relaxed and tense states very quickly. In an athletic arena, skill is expressed in relaxed states and pure athleticism is expressed in tense states so the people who can toggle the quickest between these 2 states are often the best players. (FWIW, if you're wondering how developed your own vagal tone is, you can now test it at home with a heart rate monitor and an app that tests your heart rate variability (HRV). Athletes tend to have very high HRVs).

A lot to unpack here, but really, really interesting, so thank you for taking the time to post it.

Re: the above in bold; the first player to jump into my mind was Jaylen Brown. Jaylen often shows dazzling athleticism followed by a clumsy finishing move - is that an example of what you are describing here? If so, can the ability to 'toggle' between the two be developed over time?

Finally, what background do you have that gave you this knowledge?

[sam_I_am]

Holy **** at Bryan Colangelo throwing Fultz under the bus. Imagine doing that to the #1 overall pick in the draft, a guy who you traded some valuable assets for. What a POS. If I'm Fultz, I'd probably be contacting the Players' Union at this point.

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Holy cow. To come out and say "Hey, we didn't tell him to change his shot!" is just terrible. Why not just man up and say "We misdiagnosed his injury, so now we're going to let him rest"? I feel bad for the kid now.

It sounds like they think he is a wuss. Changing your shot like that when all you have a little bursitis or tendinitis is pretty weak. Avery Bradley played through shoulder dislocations and never winced away his free throws.

If he really is that soft, they should rest him until he his healthy rather than let him screw up his shot.

[Slartibartfast]

The question is "What do you think now?"

I think we all have to be pretty happy about Tatum. He's a really good player, and I feel more sure about him than I was about Brown last year. I feel like we landed a young Paul Pierce. They are not the same player, but that's the kind of talent in Tatum. And he could be better than that. How can you be disappointed with that?

As for Fultz - I see nothing so far to indicate that he will be better than Tatum. Maybe he will impress more down the road.

The more interesting "What if?" to me is now playing for LA. What if we had taken Lonzo at #1 instead of trading for Irving? Are we better with rookie Tatum and Kyrie Irving at the point, than with rookie Lonzo, Crowder, rookie Zizic and injured Isiah Thomas? Yes. But how good will Lonzo be?

The Lakers are playing garbage ball. One long extended sequence of garbage time. I wouldn't pay any attention to Ball's stats this year - like Kendall Marshall playing for D'Antoni.

Luke Walton has been really disappointing as an offensive coach. They're not really running anything other than P&R, & they probably have one of the simplest and easiest to defend offenses in the league. You'd think Walton woulda picked something up from Golden State but he really didn't.

I think you're too quick to dismiss what Ball's gonna do this year. He played in a great college system last year that really played to his strengths. He's not going to have that advantage this year, and he's doing it against professionals and some of them are quite motivated to shut his dad up. He's gonna go thru the fire for sure.

This is nothing like D'Antoni's system, D'Antoni is actually a good offensive coach. Walton's non-system approach is not gonna inflate anyone's stats. If anything, it's gonna depress them. Ball's still gonna put up numbers in spite of it, though, because he's a great player.

D'Antoni is a good coach some years. That year in LAL was pretty bad though. Just gave up on D and put shooters on the floor and cranked up shots. Got a bunch of people overpaid.

And Walton's system absolutely will inflate stats. Look at the insane pace they are playing. Ball is putting up 15 shots a game. Jordan Clarkson is putting up 20 ppg in 20mpg.