Political Roundtable Part XV

[montestewart]

I tend to think most politicians are self-serving and borderline corrupt.

Agreed - at least by the time they are filtered up to the national level. Seems like the local guys want to make a difference...

Some are. Many others lack selflessness and an adequate ethical compass but are limited by incompetence and/or low ambition.

[popper]

...The issue is whether the two senators are speaking truth to power when they say that Trump is a habitual liar and scumbag whose reckless tongue and tweets are endangering all of us.

This really cuts to the point with Trump. If one did vote for him, they should at least be able to acknowledge that he is:

1) a habitual and pathological liar
2) has routinely put us in danger with his foreign policy
3) hasn't moved the country forward in healthcare policy, tax policy or immigration policy

They could say that he has caused the federal government to go farther in disarray. But you might be surprised that they don't seem to care - they might actually see that as a benefit.

I acknowledge #1 (I think he's personally despicable).
Not sure about #2. Are you thinking North Korea?
Re: #3, his efforts to allow group purchases across state lines and deviate from some ACA rules could substantially lower the cost of health insurance for some. It's too early to know for sure though. Agree there's no tax policy accomplishments thus far. I disagree about immigration policy. I think he's made great strides enforcing immigration laws. Granted that's not a new policy but I'll settle for the incremental progress.

[cammac]

...The issue is whether the two senators are speaking truth to power when they say that Trump is a habitual liar and scumbag whose reckless tongue and tweets are endangering all of us.

This really cuts to the point with Trump. If one did vote for him, they should at least be able to acknowledge that he is:

1) a habitual and pathological liar
2) has routinely put us in danger with his foreign policy
3) hasn't moved the country forward in healthcare policy, tax policy or immigration policy

They could say that he has caused the federal government to go farther in disarray. But you might be surprised that they don't seem to care - they might actually see that as a benefit.

I acknowledge #1 (I think he's personally despicable).
Not sure about #2. Are you thinking North Korea?
Re: #3, his efforts to allow group purchases across state lines and deviate from some ACA rules could substantially lower the cost of health insurance for some. It's too early to know for sure though. Agree there's no tax policy accomplishments thus far. I disagree about immigration policy. I think he's made great strides enforcing immigration laws. Granted that's not a new policy but I'll settle for the incremental progress.

#2 He has made a mess about both Iran ( the deal was far from perfect but deals never are ) Korea is more of a threat today than when he took office. The reality is that you are not dealing with a rational state which is a family dictatorship and with 2 irrational leaders we are closer to Armageddon.
#3 Does building a wall stop the immigration problem? It certainly doesn't solve the drug problem? Does deporting the Dreamers solve any of the problems who are mostly tax payers and contributing to society? Has ICE targeted the huge numbers of illegal underpaid farm workers who contribute to keeping USA food costs down and live in mostly Trump districts?

[Ruzious]

I think if you change psychopath to weak self-serving narcissist - then it might be pretty close? And some politicians (Trump) are worse than others.

I added the "weak" because there must be some reason that they constantly kick the ball to the future rather than actually deal with the cause of the problems...

Honestly, while you're not nearly as bad as SD, I think you're way off. They're not perfect people, and they have obvious and not so obvious limitations, but there are are a lot of good people trying to do good.

My guess - you have never worked with politicians on legislation - my guess - but tell me if I am wrong.

I think your point is they are just human beings trying to make the world better. I think that is true for many - especially at the local level. When you get to the federal level - thinking I am way closer than you are...

We get to agree to disagree a lot - I like that it is cordial.

Correct. I have no experience working with politicians - just have a brother who was elected to the MD Dem Central Committe and gleen a lot of my views from talking with him and going to a lot of political forums. Remember, most of the folks who made it to the federal level started at the local level - presumably the best of them, but unfortunately that's not always the case.

[popper]

This really cuts to the point with Trump. If one did vote for him, they should at least be able to acknowledge that he is:

1) a habitual and pathological liar
2) has routinely put us in danger with his foreign policy
3) hasn't moved the country forward in healthcare policy, tax policy or immigration policy

They could say that he has caused the federal government to go farther in disarray. But you might be surprised that they don't seem to care - they might actually see that as a benefit.

I acknowledge #1 (I think he's personally despicable).
Not sure about #2. Are you thinking North Korea?
Re: #3, his efforts to allow group purchases across state lines and deviate from some ACA rules could substantially lower the cost of health insurance for some. It's too early to know for sure though. Agree there's no tax policy accomplishments thus far. I disagree about immigration policy. I think he's made great strides enforcing immigration laws. Granted that's not a new policy but I'll settle for the incremental progress.

#2 He has made a mess about both Iran ( the deal was far from perfect but deals never are ) Korea is more of a threat today than when he took office. The reality is that you are not dealing with a rational state which is a family dictatorship and with 2 irrational leaders we are closer to Armageddon.
#3 Does building a wall stop the immigration problem? It certainly doesn't solve the drug problem? Does deporting the Dreamers solve any of the problems who are mostly tax payers and contributing to society? Has ICE targeted the huge numbers of illegal underpaid farm workers who contribute to keeping USA food costs down and live in mostly Trump districts?

Iran is the number one state sponsor of terrorism around the world. The Iran deal should have gone through the treaty process (Senate Approval) but was shoehorned in with an assist from Corker. The IAEA has declared that they cannot confirm whether or not Iran is complying with the provisions of the agreement because they don't have access to Iran's military sites. Reasonable people can disagree on the efficacy of the deal.

Although I didn't mention the wall (I posted about enforcing current immigration laws which a president has a sworn duty to uphold) they certainly would help. There's solid evidence that border walls reduce illegal immigration. In the US cammac our President does not have the authority to invent immigration law. That is the role of our congress. The President has simply devolved authority back to them where it belongs. As I understand it, ICE prioritizes their efforts starting with criminal aliens, MS-13 etc. and then works their way down to other illegal aliens. Some really good people here illegally do get caught up in the process and deported. If congress wants to change the laws then they should get to work but don't blame the president or ICE for doing their jobs.

[dckingsfan]

This really cuts to the point with Trump. If one did vote for him, they should at least be able to acknowledge that he is:

1) a habitual and pathological liar
2) has routinely put us in danger with his foreign policy
3) hasn't moved the country forward in healthcare policy, tax policy or immigration policy

They could say that he has caused the federal government to go farther in disarray. But you might be surprised that they don't seem to care - they might actually see that as a benefit.

I acknowledge #1 (I think he's personally despicable).

-- violent agreement on this front by most I would assume.

Not sure about #2. Are you thinking North Korea?

Most definitely.

Re: #3, his efforts to allow group purchases across state lines and deviate from some ACA rules could substantially lower the cost of health insurance for some. It's too early to know for sure though.

But that isn't really policy improvement, right. He is intentionally undermining the ACA. He really had not policy proposals - he just wanted someone else to magically come up with something better.

Agree there's no tax policy accomplishments thus far.

You are right, we have to wait on this - but thus far - no real policy enhancements.

I disagree about immigration policy. I think he's made great strides enforcing immigration laws. Granted that's not a new policy but I'll settle for the incremental progress.

Exactly - it isn't a policy - it isn't leading or putting something in place that will help for the long-term.

[FAH1223]

I acknowledge #1 (I think he's personally despicable).
Not sure about #2. Are you thinking North Korea?
Re: #3, his efforts to allow group purchases across state lines and deviate from some ACA rules could substantially lower the cost of health insurance for some. It's too early to know for sure though. Agree there's no tax policy accomplishments thus far. I disagree about immigration policy. I think he's made great strides enforcing immigration laws. Granted that's not a new policy but I'll settle for the incremental progress.

#2 He has made a mess about both Iran ( the deal was far from perfect but deals never are ) Korea is more of a threat today than when he took office. The reality is that you are not dealing with a rational state which is a family dictatorship and with 2 irrational leaders we are closer to Armageddon.
#3 Does building a wall stop the immigration problem? It certainly doesn't solve the drug problem? Does deporting the Dreamers solve any of the problems who are mostly tax payers and contributing to society? Has ICE targeted the huge numbers of illegal underpaid farm workers who contribute to keeping USA food costs down and live in mostly Trump districts?

Iran is the number one state sponsor of terrorism around the world. The Iran deal should have gone through the treaty process (Senate Approval) but was shoehorned in with an assist from Corker. The IAEA has declared that they cannot confirm whether or not Iran is complying with the provisions of the agreement because they don't have access to Iran's military sites. Reasonable people can disagree on the efficacy of the deal.

Although I didn't mention the wall (I posted about enforcing current immigration laws which a president has a sworn duty to uphold) they certainly would help. There's solid evidence that border walls reduce illegal immigration. In the US cammac our President does not have the authority to invent immigration law. That is the role of our congress. The President has simply devolved authority back to them where it belongs. As I understand it, ICE prioritizes their efforts starting with criminal aliens, MS-13 etc. and then works their way down to other illegal aliens. Some really good people here illegally do get caught up in the process and deported. If congress wants to change the laws then they should get to work but don't blame the president or ICE for doing their jobs.

You do know the Iran Deal was going to be completed with or without the USA.

With countries increasingly trading and bypassing the sanctions with Iran by using mutual currencies and gold (China, Russia, Turkey, South Korea, UAE, India...), Kerry/Obama have admitted that the deal was about maintaining Dollar hegemony by letting Iran back into the global financial system. The Europeans, Russia and China see Iran as huge for business.

As far as military sites, the IAEA has no credibile evidence to request inspections there. They can if there are. But Iran has done what's been asked.

As far as them supporting Hezbollah or Shia militias in Iraq fighting alongside the Iraqi army... a lot of Iran's influence came because a dumbass named George W. Bush invaded Iraq. Attempting to oust Assad via the CIA/Turkey/Qatar/Saudi/Jordan was also a failure by Obama and no one in DC thought the IRGC led by Soleimani would deploy and team up with Moscow. But anyone with a clue to the region could see that would happen...

[Pointgod]

Lol this is almost too good to be true. No matter what Trump accuses someone else of doing rest assured he's done the same. It's called "projecting". So how is Trump going to spin this?

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-cambridge-analytica-hillary-clinton-emails-julian-assange-2017-10

Key members of President Donald Trump's campaign team scrambled Wednesday to distance themselves from the data mining and analysis company Cambridge Analytica, whose CEO reportedly reached out to WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange during the presidential campaign to offer help in finding Hillary Clinton's "missing" emails.

[verbal8]

Republican Nate couldn't do it.

Republican Popper couldn't do it.

But Republican sd20, you win.

I gotta bow out of this thread for my own mental well being

for the last time,

Spoiler:

I'm indépendant!!!!!

Did you get your spell checker from Trump University?

[Pointgod]

While Trump was tweeting:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/24/politics/senate-cfpb-arbitration-repeal/index.html

But but Trump can't be bought by Wall street. He's looking out for the little guy. Also notice that this went along party lines except for two Republican Senators with Mike freaking Pence casting the deciding vote. Just a reminder for those of you that like to make false equivalences about Democrats and Republicans.

Oh another thing for the false equivalence fans as of the time of posting, I can't find this story on Fox News.

http://www.foxnews.com

[popper]

#2 He has made a mess about both Iran ( the deal was far from perfect but deals never are ) Korea is more of a threat today than when he took office. The reality is that you are not dealing with a rational state which is a family dictatorship and with 2 irrational leaders we are closer to Armageddon.
#3 Does building a wall stop the immigration problem? It certainly doesn't solve the drug problem? Does deporting the Dreamers solve any of the problems who are mostly tax payers and contributing to society? Has ICE targeted the huge numbers of illegal underpaid farm workers who contribute to keeping USA food costs down and live in mostly Trump districts?

Iran is the number one state sponsor of terrorism around the world. The Iran deal should have gone through the treaty process (Senate Approval) but was shoehorned in with an assist from Corker. The IAEA has declared that they cannot confirm whether or not Iran is complying with the provisions of the agreement because they don't have access to Iran's military sites. Reasonable people can disagree on the efficacy of the deal.

Although I didn't mention the wall (I posted about enforcing current immigration laws which a president has a sworn duty to uphold) they certainly would help. There's solid evidence that border walls reduce illegal immigration. In the US cammac our President does not have the authority to invent immigration law. That is the role of our congress. The President has simply devolved authority back to them where it belongs. As I understand it, ICE prioritizes their efforts starting with criminal aliens, MS-13 etc. and then works their way down to other illegal aliens. Some really good people here illegally do get caught up in the process and deported. If congress wants to change the laws then they should get to work but don't blame the president or ICE for doing their jobs.

You do know the Iran Deal was going to be completed with or without the USA.

With countries increasingly trading and bypassing the sanctions with Iran by using mutual currencies and gold (China, Russia, Turkey, South Korea, UAE, India...), Kerry/Obama have admitted that the deal was about maintaining Dollar hegemony by letting Iran back into the global financial system. The Europeans, Russia and China see Iran as huge for business.

As far as military sites, the IAEA has no credibile evidence to request inspections there. They can if there are. But Iran has done what's been asked.

As far as them supporting Hezbollah or Shia militias in Iraq fighting alongside the Iraqi army... a lot of Iran's influence came because a dumbass named George W. Bush invaded Iraq. Attempting to oust Assad via the CIA/Turkey/Qatar/Saudi/Jordan was also a failure by Obama and no one in DC thought the IRGC led by Soleimani would deploy and team up with Moscow. But anyone with a clue to the region could see that would happen...

Thx for your insight. The only question I have about your post is your comment that the IAEA can inspect military sites but only if they have credible evidence of a violation. I’m almost sure I’ve heard senior Iranian officials say publicly that under no circumstance would they ever allow inspection of military sites. Also it would be difficult to uncover evidence of violation absent the ability to inspect those military sites.

[dckingsfan]

Honestly, while you're not nearly as bad as SD, I think you're way off. They're not perfect people, and they have obvious and not so obvious limitations, but there are are a lot of good people trying to do good.

My guess - you have never worked with politicians on legislation - my guess - but tell me if I am wrong.

I think your point is they are just human beings trying to make the world better. I think that is true for many - especially at the local level. When you get to the federal level - thinking I am way closer than you are...

We get to agree to disagree a lot - I like that it is cordial.

Correct. I have no experience working with politicians - just have a brother who was elected to the MD Dem Central Committe and gleen a lot of my views from talking with him and going to a lot of political forums. Remember, most of the folks who made it to the federal level started at the local level - presumably the best of them, but unfortunately that's not always the case.

Okay, that gives me context. Those that get to positions like your brother are usually the most intellectual of the group - and often the most frustrated.

I find that as you move up the food chain the narcissist quotient goes up accordingly - I can't prove it, so there is that. And there are some really good legislators - I would say those are the exception and becoming more so over time.

And the duration of time spent in politics also has a warping factor.

[dckingsfan]

While Trump was tweeting:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/24/politics/senate-cfpb-arbitration-repeal/index.html

But but Trump can't be bought by Wall street. He's looking out for the little guy. Also notice that this went along party lines except for two Republican Senators with Mike freaking Pence casting the deciding vote. Just a reminder for those of you that like to make false equivalences about Democrats and Republicans.

Oh another thing for the false equivalence fans as of the time of posting, I can't find this story on Fox News.

http://www.foxnews.com

I love your false equivalences between Rs and Ds. The lesser of two evils But, we don't need to go there.

Did you see how this started and what the arguments were for and against? Have you researched how we got here or are you just going to use the "Rs are against consumers" mantra? Even Ds know that Dodd-Frank is flawed. And they know that the CFPB offered no alternatives - they wanted it to be up or down.

Neither party worked for our best interests in this particular case. Controlled binding arbitration would be much better for consumers - but I guess that doesn't help the trial lawyers.

[stilldropin20]

"NOW BREAKING" gag order lifted 5 minutes ago. FBI informant will be allowed to testify. This informant's attorney said last night on live TV that their client has emails, banking records, etc to connect the dots to Uranium One and the Clinton's. Money come from russia and to the clintons/their foundation.

as i said strap in!

also Hillary paid christopher Steele who paid russian operatives for the russian fake dirt on on trump. not the republican opposition. Steele not involved until after the republican primary was over.

[stilldropin20]

new DNC chairman, Tom Perez, "I wasn't involved" as if that was the ooooooooooold DNC. this is the new DNC. lol

[stilldropin20]

so the fake and phony news is exactly that. fake and phony. from january-July 2017 CNN spent an average of no less than 4 hours per day covering the phony russian-trump collusion.

when after all, the collusion was actually between HRC campaign, the DNC, christopher steele (a froeign national and former mi5 agent), and russian operatives to dig dirt up on trump. they found none. None what so ever.

Muller has nothing.

This particular FBI informant has been undercover for 4 years!!!!

[stilldropin20]

Sara Carter, Circa news, has been all over this and reporting on this for about 1 year.

[stilldropin20]

journalism is still alive!!!!!

John solomon, the hill. Sara Carter, circa news. real journalists.

[stilldropin20]

here's the rub: eric holder and rod rosenstein already were investigating this Uranium One deal in 2009. they appearently turned their backs on the investigation and allowed hillary and Obama to push this deal through.

Per FBI informant's attorney " president Obama was briefed on this entire matter."

[stilldropin20]

nuclear regulatory commission: "yellow cake uranium (the stuff used to make nuclear weapons) left the united states to Canada and then was shipped overseas"