Brice Already a Bust (3rd-Year Option Not Picked Up)

[Ranma]

He was one of my early candidates for the 2016 draft, but when the time came for the Clippers to make the pick in the first round, I was disappointed in his selection as I thought he was a better second-round proposition. He has since done little to inspire hope or confidence in his development.

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[Akklaim1]

Or Doc just don't know how to scout players. Or develop them.

[nickhx2]

imagine if we had brogdon

[Ranma]

This is exactly why I wanted a noted talent evaluator in our front office. Jerry West is an advisor who watches a lot of games, but he's too old to endure the traveling required to see prospects in person. Michael Winger and Trent Redden are great with administrative and salary cap matters, but neither is noted for their talent evaluation abilities.

If I recall correctly, both Lawrence Frank and Doc were high on the Brice pick when it was made even though there were multiple prospects ranked above him on the consensus BPA list who were still available at the time.

Like I've said before, I liked him but he shouldn't have been the pick. Furkan Korkmaz, Skal Labissiere, and Deyonta Davis were the 3 notable names with Korkmaz my preferred target of who was left at the time. This doesn't include Dejounte Murray, Malcolm Brogdon, or Patrick McCaw. Ivan Zubac and Cheick Diallo were also notable names for consideration.

The Clippers' stated focus is free agency and we're well positioned in that respect, but identifying and developing talent are 2 areas within our organizational structure that need to be shored up. We're better off now with West in the fold and Doc not having final say in personnel matters, but we could and should be better equipped in those areas.

[Akklaim1]

You just can't name a single player that was developed into a key player under Doc. DJ was already a full-time starter before Doc. Yeah, props to Doc for improving him even more. But he didn't draft him. Rondo? He's been practically useless since his Boston days.

[esqtvd]

Good. Many folks were saying he did well in the Vegas Summer League but I thought he played like a dog, loafing down the floor and getting punked physically in the post.

It was a bad pick, but it was also a horrid draft. We were in win-now mode trying to keep Chris and Blake, and the other names [exc the surprising Brogdon, whom the entire league also passed on once] are still years away from being playoff rotation contributors, and we had no minutes to spare on their development.

The CP3 window is now closed, and so is letting picks fly out the win-now window.

[Sofia]

Forgot he was on the roster tbh. For the last few years I've struggled to keep track which year we drafted a player that we didn't utilise.

[nickhx2]

not gonna lie i pretty much forget he's on the team unless i see a thread about him.

[MartinToVaught]

Good. Many folks were saying he did well in the Vegas Summer League but I thought he played like a dog, loafing down the floor and getting punked physically in the post.

It was a bad pick, but it was also a horrid draft. We were in win-now mode trying to keep Chris and Blake, and the other names [exc the surprising Brogdon, whom the entire league also passed on once] are still years away from being playoff rotation contributors, and we had no minutes to spare on their development.

The CP3 window is now closed, and so is letting picks fly out the win-now window.

This excuse for Doc's poor drafting just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Since we were in win-now mode with little room for draft picks to contribute immediately, there was even more of an incentive to gamble on the highest-upside prospect available instead of settling for a mediocre player with a low ceiling. The higher-upside prospect would have time to develop without the pressure to succeed right away.

Skal Labassière, Dejounte Murray, and Ivica Zubac were all available when we wasted our pick on Brice. Does anyone really believe CP3 and Blake would have been upset if we drafted one of those guys instead of Brice?

Now, I do agree that our drafting should be better going forward, but it has nothing to do with CP3 leaving. It's because we finally have a competent front office making the picks instead of the worst GM in the league.

[madmaxmedia]

Ultimately I don't care the reasons (although I'm mainly looking at you DOC), we have been HORRIBLE with the draft the last few years, squandering our picks on bad vets or bad picks.

[og15]

You just can't name a single player that was developed into a key player under Doc. DJ was already a full-time starter before Doc. Yeah, props to Doc for improving him even more. But he didn't draft him. Rondo? He's been practically useless since his Boston days.

It's hard to develop draft picks if they aren't good talents and don't have much development to be done. Doc did develop DJ, he was a starter, but playing 24 mpg, not very confident, still jumpy on defense, Doc defined his role and focused him. Blake is an extremely hard worker, but Doc helped guide his development. Blake said himself that with VDN, he had no direction on what to work on in summer, but when Doc came, they tailored his work to what the team was looking to get from him.

He developed Austin, son or not. He didn't develop him from scratch or anything, but he maximized JJ.

Right now it looks like Sindarius will be developed. The problem with lack of developing young guys was that the guys they had to develop were just not good players. In general they were also older college guys who were supposed to be more NBA ready and didn't even have the much development left.


---

I agree I don't buy the argument that because we were trying to win now, we should then draft older players who we don't plan on having contribute until at least their second season anyways over players we think are better. If you're going to do that, you're actually better off trading your draft pick for a player. That still can't explain CJ Wilcox who was redundant in skills to other Clippers gusrds, was older than 3rd and 4th year players, and had no potential. What was the logic behind him, in case on of Redick/Jamal got injured? You could just easily pick up some random shooter if that is all you want.

I'm not saying that this wasn't what Doc was thinking, but I'm saying that it was poor logic. Also not saying that if they drafted more potential we'd have 3 good prospects, no, maybe even just one would be solid, so I acknowledge that too.

[esqtvd]

Good. Many folks were saying he did well in the Vegas Summer League but I thought he played like a dog, loafing down the floor and getting punked physically in the post.

It was a bad pick, but it was also a horrid draft. We were in win-now mode trying to keep Chris and Blake, and the other names [exc the surprising Brogdon, whom the entire league also passed on once] are still years away from being playoff rotation contributors, and we had no minutes to spare on their development.

The CP3 window is now closed, and so is letting picks fly out the win-now window.

This excuse for Doc's poor drafting just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Since we were in win-now mode with little room for draft picks to contribute immediately, there was even more of an incentive to gamble on the highest-upside prospect available instead of settling for a mediocre player with a low ceiling. The higher-upside prospect would have time to develop without the pressure to succeed right away.

Skal Labassière, Dejounte Murray, and Ivica Zubac were all available when we wasted our pick on Brice. Does anyone really believe CP3 and Blake would have been upset if we drafted one of those guys instead of Brice?

Now, I do agree that our drafting should be better going forward, but it has nothing to do with CP3 leaving. It's because we finally have a competent front office making the picks instead of the worst GM in the league.

Well, actually, in September 2016, Doc fired the scouting staff that chose Brice, and with the exception of Jerry West, hired the scouting staff we have now. So this is still The House That Doc Built.

In that same 2016 draft, while others were drafting Zubac, Diallo, and Brogdon, Jerry West's Golden State Warriors drafted Damien Jones, who has yet to move any NBA meters. And let's remember that the very same geniuses who traded for the #27 pick to get Rudy Gobert also drafted complete bust Trey Burke at #9 that very same year. The woulda-shoulda game is easy to play but hard to win.

So those are the facts: It's not all white hats and black hats [Doc]. It's true Doc had zero luck in the draft, but there's a lot of luck involved when you're drafting in the 20s and worse. I'm all in favor of him stepping--or being pushed--aside on personnel matters esp the draft. But with the CP/BG opt-out clock ticking, his attention was on getting people who could help now, and it can't be disputed the FAs we picked up for minimum wage or thereabouts were more productive than any rookie draftees. That's GM work too and is always ignored in these things. And I don't know how responsible he was for convincing Willie Reed [or Milos?] to join up, but that's typical of where his value as Coach/GM was, being able to promise playing time, talk to a player how he would fit in. [Doc still has a lot of sway in the org and his promises have weight. I don't think that was the situation with Ainge in Boston.]

It's a new day and I'm not saying Doc should still be GM. He took over Sterling's operation on the fly and left it better off than he found it. In the meantime he cobbled together 50-win teams with NBA rejects backing up the Big 3 who ate up most of the sal cap. But we're not a serious contender anymore, so we have to be looking at the 5-year window when it comes to personnel, not the 5-month window until the playoffs. Admittedly, Doc has shown no skill at acquiring young talent. Give someone else a try.

I have no regrets. We went for it while CP3 was here, and it didn't work. It probably was never going to work, but you have to try. At least Doc didn't leave a Nets-sized hole doing it.

[illastrate]

Why not pick up his option and use him as a trade chip? I'd imagine he'd have some value as a high profile college star less than 2 years ago.

[og15]

Good. Many folks were saying he did well in the Vegas Summer League but I thought he played like a dog, loafing down the floor and getting punked physically in the post.

It was a bad pick, but it was also a horrid draft. We were in win-now mode trying to keep Chris and Blake, and the other names [exc the surprising Brogdon, whom the entire league also passed on once] are still years away from being playoff rotation contributors, and we had no minutes to spare on their development.

The CP3 window is now closed, and so is letting picks fly out the win-now window.

This excuse for Doc's poor drafting just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Since we were in win-now mode with little room for draft picks to contribute immediately, there was even more of an incentive to gamble on the highest-upside prospect available instead of settling for a mediocre player with a low ceiling. The higher-upside prospect would have time to develop without the pressure to succeed right away.

Skal Labassière, Dejounte Murray, and Ivica Zubac were all available when we wasted our pick on Brice. Does anyone really believe CP3 and Blake would have been upset if we drafted one of those guys instead of Brice?

Now, I do agree that our drafting should be better going forward, but it has nothing to do with CP3 leaving. It's because we finally have a competent front office making the picks instead of the worst GM in the league.

Well, actually, in September 2016, Doc fired the scouting staff that chose Brice, and with the exception of Jerry West, hired the scouting staff we have now. So this is still The House That Doc Built.

In that same 2016 draft, while others were drafting Zubac, Diallo, and Brogdon, Jerry West's Golden State Warriors drafted Damien Jones, who has yet to move any NBA meters. And let's remember that the very same geniuses who traded for the #27 pick to get Rudy Gobert also drafted complete bust Trey Burke at #9 that very same year. The woulda-shoulda game is easy to play but hard to win.

So those are the facts: It's not all white hats and black hats [Doc]. It's true Doc had zero luck in the draft, but there's a lot of luck involved when you're drafting in the 20s and worse. I'm all in favor of him stepping--or being pushed--aside on personnel matters esp the draft. But with the CP/BG opt-out clock ticking, his attention was on getting people who could help now, and it can't be disputed the FAs we picked up for minimum wage or thereabouts were more productive than any rookie draftees. That's GM work too and is always ignored in these things. And I don't know how responsible he was for convincing Willie Reed [or Milos?] to join up, but that's typical of where his value as Coach/GM was, being able to promise playing time, talk to a player how he would fit in. [Doc still has a lot of sway in the org and his promises have weight. I don't think that was the situation with Ainge in Boston.]

It's a new day and I'm not saying Doc should still be GM. He took over Sterling's operation on the fly and left it better off than he found it. In the meantime he cobbled together 50-win teams with NBA rejects backing up the Big 3 who ate up most of the sal cap. But we're not a serious contender anymore, so we have to be looking at the 5-year window when it comes to personnel, not the 5-month window until the playoffs. Admittedly, Doc has shown no skill at acquiring young talent. Give someone else a try.

I have no regrets. We went for it while CP3 was here, and it didn't work. It probably was never going to work, but you have to try. At least Doc didn't leave a Nets-sized hole doing it.

I thought that was Frank who did all the restructuring, at least that's what Frank and Ballmer said. I'll give Doc some slack in that the scouting department was not good, but Doc coming from Boston and knowing how they did it there, right after Ballmer came, knowing how rich he was, he should have had this deep front office. It is your own fault if you don't surround yourself with advisors and the necessary people and try to do it yourself essentially. Ballmer obviously knew very little about running a basketball franchise and left if all to Doc, and he was very willing to spend.

[og15]

Why not pick up his option and use him as a trade chip? I'd imagine he'd have some value as a high profile college star less than 2 years ago.

Anthony Bennett the #1 pick couldn't be traded for value after his second season, so what you did in college does nothing for you in the NBA.

[esqtvd]

Well, actually, in September 2016, Doc fired the scouting staff that chose Brice, and with the exception of Jerry West, hired the scouting staff we have now. So this is still The House That Doc Built.

In that same 2016 draft, while others were drafting Zubac, Diallo, and Brogdon, Jerry West's Golden State Warriors drafted Damien Jones, who has yet to move any NBA meters. And let's remember that the very same geniuses who traded for the #27 pick to get Rudy Gobert also drafted complete bust Trey Burke at #9 that very same year. The woulda-shoulda game is easy to play but hard to win.

So those are the facts: It's not all white hats and black hats [Doc]. It's true Doc had zero luck in the draft, but there's a lot of luck involved when you're drafting in the 20s and worse. I'm all in favor of him stepping--or being pushed--aside on personnel matters esp the draft. But with the CP/BG opt-out clock ticking, his attention was on getting people who could help now, and it can't be disputed the FAs we picked up for minimum wage or thereabouts were more productive than any rookie draftees. That's GM work too and is always ignored in these things. And I don't know how responsible he was for convincing Willie Reed [or Milos?] to join up, but that's typical of where his value as Coach/GM was, being able to promise playing time, talk to a player how he would fit in. [Doc still has a lot of sway in the org and his promises have weight. I don't think that was the situation with Ainge in Boston.]

It's a new day and I'm not saying Doc should still be GM. He took over Sterling's operation on the fly and left it better off than he found it. In the meantime he cobbled together 50-win teams with NBA rejects backing up the Big 3 who ate up most of the sal cap. But we're not a serious contender anymore, so we have to be looking at the 5-year window when it comes to personnel, not the 5-month window until the playoffs. Admittedly, Doc has shown no skill at acquiring young talent. Give someone else a try.

I have no regrets. We went for it while CP3 was here, and it didn't work. It probably was never going to work, but you have to try. At least Doc didn't leave a Nets-sized hole doing it.

I thought that was Frank who did all the restructuring, at least that's what Frank and Ballmer said. I'll give Doc some slack in that the scouting department was not good, but Doc coming from Boston and knowing how they did it there, right after Ballmer came, knowing how rich he was, he should have had this deep front office. It is your own fault if you don't surround yourself with advisors and the necessary people and try to do it yourself essentially. Ballmer obviously knew very little about running a basketball franchise and left if all to Doc, and he was very willing to spend.

I'll definitely plead my client guilty to not overhauling the scouting soon enough. But I'll plead it down to a misdemeanor because in win-now mode, there was nobody in the draft who would be playoff rotation-worthy, and sweet-talking your Collisons and Lucs and Feltons and Speightses [and even Big Baby and Hedo] was THE priority, and not a small bit of magic for which his critics do not accord him any credit.

If you do the timeline, Wilcox was drafted after Doc had been PoBO for only a week [June 2014], and Bullock was drafted when Doc had only been named coach the week before [June 2013]. So really, folks? Now sure, Brice was on his watch and he's a dog. But have you looked at the Spurs' draft record the past 10 years? Nikola Milutinov? Livio Jean-Charles?

But hey, I'm fine with Doc out, and I'll add another reason--I'm not sure we could have attracted front office guys like Michael Winger [the lawyer who's the official GM] and Trent Redden [who was David Griffin's right-hand man in Cleveland] if Doc still held the Grand Poobah title. "Lackey" doesn't look good on your resume.

Since he brought in Lawrence Frank, the reorganization still goes to Doc's ledger. I'm sure he'd rather still have the title, but Doc never had any evident enthusiasm for the work itself. My case would be that he was the right man for the job at that particular time, that in win-now mode, seducing a Darren Collison or a Luc or a Ray Felton to sign up was far more important than getting a Kyle Anderson [whom the Clips could have drafted instead of Wilcox].

So it was good he was in when he was in, and it's good he's out now that he's out.
________________

The question now in 2017-18 and going forward is Gallo. Even though he's officially off the hook, that's probably on Doc's ledger too since he's been after him for years. [Did Jerry West sign off on him?] He can't be as meh as he looks, right?

[mkwest]

Modern-day Tarheels don't typically meet their expectations in the NBA.

[Akklaim1]

Modern-day Tarheels don't typically meet their expectations in the NBA.

Lol you're kinda right. The only active player from UNC that can play at an all-star level is Harrison Barnes and that's a borderline all-star.

[Don Tommy]

Good. Many folks were saying he did well in the Vegas Summer League but I thought he played like a dog, loafing down the floor and getting punked physically in the post.

It was a bad pick, but it was also a horrid draft. We were in win-now mode trying to keep Chris and Blake, and the other names [exc the surprising Brogdon, whom the entire league also passed on once] are still years away from being playoff rotation contributors, and we had no minutes to spare on their development.

The CP3 window is now closed, and so is letting picks fly out the win-now window.

This excuse for Doc's poor drafting just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Since we were in win-now mode with little room for draft picks to contribute immediately, there was even more of an incentive to gamble on the highest-upside prospect available instead of settling for a mediocre player with a low ceiling. The higher-upside prospect would have time to develop without the pressure to succeed right away.

Skal Labassière, Dejounte Murray, and Ivica Zubac were all available when we wasted our pick on Brice. Does anyone really believe CP3 and Blake would have been upset if we drafted one of those guys instead of Brice?

Now, I do agree that our drafting should be better going forward, but it has nothing to do with CP3 leaving. It's because we finally have a competent front office making the picks instead of the worst GM in the league.

Well, actually, in September 2016, Doc fired the scouting staff that chose Brice, and with the exception of Jerry West, hired the scouting staff we have now. So this is still The House That Doc Built.

In that same 2016 draft, while others were drafting Zubac, Diallo, and Brogdon, Jerry West's Golden State Warriors drafted Damien Jones, who has yet to move any NBA meters. And let's remember that the very same geniuses who traded for the #27 pick to get Rudy Gobert also drafted complete bust Trey Burke at #9 that very same year. The woulda-shoulda game is easy to play but hard to win.

One flaw with this. WE drafted Diallo, and traded his rights for David Michineau and Diamond Stone. I think that's why Chick had what I believe was his best pro game ever against us last year. There were a lot of us that preferred Diallo over both of them. Why not take a second round flyer on one of the top high school players from the year before?

[ejftw]

Can we flip him for a Top55Prot2nd and a TPE?

As far as the 16 draft goes, Skal & Ulis were the two I wanted in the first, but it is what it is. I'd also do the Diallo deal every time as I was a fan of Stone (still shocked he isn't somewhere) and would've taken Bentil (if Ulis was the FRP) or Felder (If Skal was the FRP).