Political Roundtable Part XV

[TGW]

im partisan when it comes to military. i want a massively strong military.

and i'm partisan when it comes to taxes. i want massive tax increases on the wealthy. I would hit the entire universe with a 100% tax on every single dollar over $20 million tomorrow. and every corporation with with a 100% tax with every dollar over $200 Million.

i would use that military to collect on those taxes.

I would use that money for free health care and free college. and I would redistribute the rest to the poor and working class to encourage growth and happiness and equality.

thats what i would do right now if i had a magic button.

thats about as far left as Any person can lean? right? but the left is a bunch of frickin pissboy wimps.nothing more than lip service whiners they dont want to actually do that. they play around with complete non needle moving self serving bull crap.

so since we are not going to move the needle to actually help then I practice my own brand of politics that fits neither the molds of the right or the left.

I don't think anyone would necessarily disagree with all of your stances, but when you say silly stuff like Fox tells the truth, it hurts your credibility.

[dckingsfan]

But isn't that the point? Hillary (and the DNC) lost the election - Trump didn't win the election.

I think if you take a step back - the rest is just obfuscation.

And yes - Trump used identity politics - but so did Hillary - and that was a huge strategic mistake and the beginning of the end for her campaign.

I used to think Hillary's campaign made some strategic mistakes, but I'm not all that sure about it anymore. I don't think Hillary was an ideal candidate simply because voters are looking for someone to rally around, and the concept of rallying around an older woman isn't something North American society is really willing to do. And Hillary really isn't the rallying kind. It always seems kind of forced from her, and people can tell. She has flaws, but honestly, I don't see that as one of them, but it's arguably the most crucial flaw she has as a presidential candidate....

I think if you look at the strategic mistakes she made on a state by state basis (not campaigning in close states) it becomes clear that her strategy and campaign logistics were very flawed. I guess we will disagree - I think there is no question that she lost the election. I think part of that is she was listening to the press and felt the election was going to be a landslide.

And yes, she was a flawed candidate and she carries a lot of baggage - and that is where the DNC failed voters. Hence why I say it was Hillary/DNC that lost the election.

[Pointgod]

But isn't that the point? Hillary (and the DNC) lost the election - Trump didn't win the election.

I think if you take a step back - the rest is just obfuscation.

And yes - Trump used identity politics - but so did Hillary - and that was a huge strategic mistake and the beginning of the end for her campaign.

I used to think Hillary's campaign made some strategic mistakes, but I'm not all that sure about it anymore. I don't think Hillary was an ideal candidate simply because voters are looking for someone to rally around, and the concept of rallying around an older woman isn't something North American society is really willing to do. And Hillary really isn't the rallying kind. It always seems kind of forced from her, and people can tell. She has flaws, but honestly, I don't see that as one of them, but it's arguably the most crucial flaw she has as a presidential candidate.

As for identity politics, it's kind of tough. I'm not at all convinced that any people who were willing to hold their nose and vote for Trump would have voted for Hillary no matter her campaign. Although if I'm wrong about that, then the whole Russia thing takes on an entirely new meaning. Hillary simply didn't get the wave of support that Obama did. Obama was absolutely someone who could rally and inspire people and he did that again and again. Without that ability, Hillary was always going to be fighting a tougher battle than she otherwise might have been.

The reality, though, is that the lines of identity politics were drawn well prior to either candidate being named. Trump simply exploited them more successfully. The amount of resentment towards women, minorities, etc. is absolutely obvious at this point and it precedes both candidates. And it's far easier to blame faceless "bankers" and women, minorities, etc. than it is to blame the technology you use everyday or the greedy braggarts turning democracy increasingly into a large scale pyramid scheme.

Hillary's biggest problem is that she's Hillary Clinton. After 20 years of right wing propaganda and attacks a large portion of the population has been conditioned to hate Hillary. You're seeing it played out right now with the Uranium one garbage and Trump constantly bringing her up despite her not running anymore.

Hillary didn't have an inspirational message. I get it she understands government and ran as a pragmatist, but no one is voting for the wet blanket. If you actually looked at her policies they addressed the needs of the working class and middle class, her fatal flaw was assuming people would educate themselves on her policies.

My last point is that the media was **** horrible covering the election. They focused way too much on Hillary's emails and the spectacle of Trump when they should have spent more time on policy and challenging how both candidates will execute.

[stilldropin20]

But I believe both Moore and Bannon exist as a counter punch. a counter punch to the far left. the left and right both have issues. IMO, BOTH of them have their heads up their own butts so much so that they need each other to counter each other out. both dangerous. both full of crap. kind of like this message board. the left comes with its crap and Nate comes with his. SD20 is in the middle. you guys just lean so far left on everything that you cant see it though. and thats ok with SD20. he's a big a boy. and been around a block or 2.

this past election the left fell asleep at the wheel. called half the country deplorable. they just doesn't work. and you guys are doubling, tripling down on it. even in this message board you guys are convinced anyone that opposes you is a racists. its complete crap. but mostly just silly and a losing proposition. i get it though. you're still butthurt that you lost. dismissing marginalizing half the country though? this philosophy where when you disagree with people you lable them as racists, mysogynist, etc. its devolved into the worst brand of politics and its not working anymore. Bannon exists as a counter to that. and Bannon's brand of politics are equally dangerous in my opinion.

You voted far left - Sanders is far left. Everyone but you seems to understand that. I didn't vote for Sanders because I agree with your comments about the far left being dangerous. You were far left before you instantly switched to far right. Rationalizing by saying your Independent doesn't change that. When you criticise the far left you're criticising what you were a year ago.

I also agree that Hillary was extremely stupid to call Trump's goobers deplorables. (Actually, goobers would have been better. ) I think it was the single biggest factor in her losing - much like Mitt Romney's 47% comment.

When liberals accuse specific republicans and specific groups of repubs for being racist, that does NOT mean liberals are calling all repubs racist. I'm saying it very clearly so you can't twist it - NOT ALL REPUBLICANS ARE RACISTS. In fact, a lot of them admit they f'd up by voting for him. It's too little too late, but I respect their honesty. Honesty goes a long way.

well. for about the 20th time, i didn't even vote for trump. but i do believe in this thing called the United States of America and by extension the Office of the Presidency. In the military its uniform kind of thing. sometimes we just respect the uniform and not the person.

that said, trump is not the evil person CNN makes him out to be. not even close, imo. but he is a bumbling fool and awkward communicator at times, if not often. and he has said some things that frankly make me really second guess him. But ive said all of that now for 80 pages.

[stilldropin20]

im partisan when it comes to military. i want a massively strong military.

and i'm partisan when it comes to taxes. i want massive tax increases on the wealthy. I would hit the entire universe with a 100% tax on every single dollar over $20 million tomorrow. and every corporation with with a 100% tax with every dollar over $200 Million.

i would use that military to collect on those taxes.

I would use that money for free health care and free college. and I would redistribute the rest to the poor and working class to encourage growth and happiness and equality.

thats what i would do right now if i had a magic button.

thats about as far left as Any person can lean? right? but the left is a bunch of frickin pissboy wimps.nothing more than lip service whiners they dont want to actually do that. they play around with complete non needle moving self serving bull crap.

so since we are not going to move the needle to actually help then I practice my own brand of politics that fits neither the molds of the right or the left.

I don't think anyone would necessarily disagree with all of your stances, but when you say silly stuff like Fox tells the truth, it hurts your credibility.

when th eleft is in th ewrong look for your news on fox. when the right or the president is in the wrong look for your news on CNN. then watch each other spin it, flip it and deflect. if you watch both 6-8 hours per day at minimum you will find the truth. that neither are directly reporting. but if you pay close enough attention to what both FOX AND CNN is so desperate to show you and hide from you, you will find it. its there.

[Ruzious]

But I believe both Moore and Bannon exist as a counter punch. a counter punch to the far left. the left and right both have issues. IMO, BOTH of them have their heads up their own butts so much so that they need each other to counter each other out. both dangerous. both full of crap. kind of like this message board. the left comes with its crap and Nate comes with his. SD20 is in the middle. you guys just lean so far left on everything that you cant see it though. and thats ok with SD20. he's a big a boy. and been around a block or 2.

this past election the left fell asleep at the wheel. called half the country deplorable. they just doesn't work. and you guys are doubling, tripling down on it. even in this message board you guys are convinced anyone that opposes you is a racists. its complete crap. but mostly just silly and a losing proposition. i get it though. you're still butthurt that you lost. dismissing marginalizing half the country though? this philosophy where when you disagree with people you lable them as racists, mysogynist, etc. its devolved into the worst brand of politics and its not working anymore. Bannon exists as a counter to that. and Bannon's brand of politics are equally dangerous in my opinion.

You voted far left - Sanders is far left. Everyone but you seems to understand that. I didn't vote for Sanders because I agree with your comments about the far left being dangerous. You were far left before you instantly switched to far right. Rationalizing by saying your Independent doesn't change that. When you criticise the far left you're criticising what you were a year ago.

I also agree that Hillary was extremely stupid to call Trump's goobers deplorables. (Actually, goobers would have been better. ) I think it was the single biggest factor in her losing - much like Mitt Romney's 47% comment.

When liberals accuse specific republicans and specific groups of repubs for being racist, that does NOT mean liberals are calling all repubs racist. I'm saying it very clearly so you can't twist it - NOT ALL REPUBLICANS ARE RACISTS. In fact, a lot of them admit they f'd up by voting for him. It's too little too late, but I respect their honesty. Honesty goes a long way.

well. for about the 20th time, i didn't even vote for trump. but i do believe in this thing called the United States of America and by extension the Office of the Presidency. In the military its uniform kind of thing. sometimes we just respect the uniform and not the person.

that said, trump is not the evil person CNN makes him out to be. not even close, imo. but he is a bumbling fool and awkward communicator at times, if not often. and he has said some things that frankly make me really second guess him. But ive said all of that now for 80 pages.

I didn't say or even imply that you did vote for Trump. This is what I said - " You voted far left - Sanders is far left." You incorrectly inferred what you chose to.

And it's not about Trump being awkward or new to politics - He is what he is. You've spewed total BS for the last 80 pages. I'm no huge CNN fan, but you're un-ending BS about them... You praise Fox News while you absolutely demonize CNN. That alone... dude, why do you say things that are idiotic on their face? Just to get a reaction? Watching CNN for half a day at a time - day after day just so you can find a gotcha moment - seriously? Do your patients get tired of listening to you when you have your fingers in their mouths? Btw, do you wear gloves? Ewww.

[popper]

I posted a year or two ago that the die is cast and that the two main factions in society have irreconcilable differences that cannot be papered over for much longer. We’re starting to see our institutions come apart at the seams. I read recently that only one in seven military aged youth are qualified to serve. I believe the main reasons were obesity, substance abuse and lack of education. Rampant sexual exploitation in Hollywood, the East Coast media and in state houses across the country is just the latest manifestation of a people that have lost their moorings.

We were warned hundreds of years ago that our constitution would only work for a moral people. Government of, by, and for the people requires it. As a father of a 21 year old son and a 29 year old daughter I always believed it was my duty to ensure our kids understood the difference between right and wrong. TBH, I have to give my wife most of the credit as I’m about as deeply flawed a person as one can be. The point is though, that as a society, we’re falling woefully short in setting good examples and teaching our youth about the benefits and happiness that accompany a life well lived. IMO in needs to be part of our public school curriculum.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. History informs us that if the people are unable to govern themselves then some sort of authoritative power will have to intervene and once entrenched, will be almost impossible to dislodge. I’m not optimistic.

[DCZards]

I posted a year or two ago that the die is cast and that the two main factions in society have irreconcilable differences that cannot be papered over for much longer. We’re starting to see our institutions come apart at the seams. I read recently that only one in seven military aged youth are qualified to serve. I believe the main reasons were obesity, substance abuse and lack of education. Rampant sexual exploitation in Hollywood, the East Coast media and in state houses across the country is just the latest manifestation of a people that have lost their moorings.

You forgot to mention the election of a president who mocks disabled people, brags about grabbing women by their private parts and stiffs people who do work for him.

We were warned hundreds of years ago that our constitution would only work for a moral people. Government of, by, and for the people requires it. As a father of a 21 year old son and a 29 year old daughter I always believed it was my duty to ensure our kids understood the difference between right and wrong. TBH, I have to give my wife most of the credit as I’m about as deeply flawed a person as one can be. The point is though, that as a society, we’re falling woefully short in setting good examples and teaching our youth about the benefits and happiness that accompany a life well lived. IMO in needs to be part of our public school curriculum.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. History informs us that if the people are unable to govern themselves then some sort of authoritative power will have to intervene and once entrenched, will be almost impossible to dislodge. I’m not optimistic.

And what example are we setting for our kids when we adults vote into the White House a man with a deeply flawed character who lies on auto-pilot, considers white nationalists "good people," and regularly uses his twitter account to bully, divide and taunt people?

Yes, history will show that we failed our children (and our nation) when we allowed DT to be elected president.

[popper]

I posted a year or two ago that the die is cast and that the two main factions in society have irreconcilable differences that cannot be papered over for much longer. We’re starting to see our institutions come apart at the seams. I read recently that only one in seven military aged youth are qualified to serve. I believe the main reasons were obesity, substance abuse and lack of education. Rampant sexual exploitation in Hollywood, the East Coast media and in state houses across the country is just the latest manifestation of a people that have lost their moorings.

You forgot to mention the election of a president who mocks disabled people, brags about grabbing women by their private parts and stiffs people who do work for him.

We were warned hundreds of years ago that our constitution would only work for a moral people. Government of, by, and for the people requires it. As a father of a 21 year old son and a 29 year old daughter I always believed it was my duty to ensure our kids understood the difference between right and wrong. TBH, I have to give my wife most of the credit as I’m about as deeply flawed a person as one can be. The point is though, that as a society, we’re falling woefully short in setting good examples and teaching our youth about the benefits and happiness that accompany a life well lived. IMO in needs to be part of our public school curriculum.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. History informs us that if the people are unable to govern themselves then some sort of authoritative power will have to intervene and once entrenched, will be almost impossible to dislodge. I’m not optimistic.

And what example are we setting for our kids when we adults vote into the White House a man with a deeply flawed character who lies on auto-pilot, considers white nationalists "good people," and regularly uses his twitter account to bully, divide and taunt people?

Yes, history will show that we failed our children (and our nation) when we allowed DT to be elected president.

Did we fail our children before Trump was elected? Why politicize a problem that’s been decades in the making? What useful purpose does that serve?

[stilldropin20]

I posted a year or two ago that the die is cast and that the two main factions in society have irreconcilable differences that cannot be papered over for much longer. We’re starting to see our institutions come apart at the seams. I read recently that only one in seven military aged youth are qualified to serve. I believe the main reasons were obesity, substance abuse and lack of education. Rampant sexual exploitation in Hollywood, the East Coast media and in state houses across the country is just the latest manifestation of a people that have lost their moorings.

You forgot to mention the election of a president who mocks disabled people, brags about grabbing women by their private parts and stiffs people who do work for him.

We were warned hundreds of years ago that our constitution would only work for a moral people. Government of, by, and for the people requires it. As a father of a 21 year old son and a 29 year old daughter I always believed it was my duty to ensure our kids understood the difference between right and wrong. TBH, I have to give my wife most of the credit as I’m about as deeply flawed a person as one can be. The point is though, that as a society, we’re falling woefully short in setting good examples and teaching our youth about the benefits and happiness that accompany a life well lived. IMO in needs to be part of our public school curriculum.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. History informs us that if the people are unable to govern themselves then some sort of authoritative power will have to intervene and once entrenched, will be almost impossible to dislodge. I’m not optimistic.

And what example are we setting for our kids when we adults vote into the White House a man with a deeply flawed character who lies on auto-pilot, considers white nationalists "good people," and regularly uses his twitter account to bully, divide and taunt people?

Yes, history will show that we failed our children (and our nation) when we allowed DT to be elected president.

Did we fail our children before Trump was elected? Why politicize a problem that’s been decades in the making? What useful purpose does that serve?

Exactly popper exactly everything was well stated.

I'm just trying to do my best to point it out because people on this threat wow they just don't want to see it they don't want to see their own flaws. Both sides have massive issues!!

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[dckingsfan]

Did we fail our children before Trump was elected? Why politicize a problem that’s been decades in the making? What useful purpose does that serve?

I am guessing that is rhetorical. What I see is a race to the bottom where people of both parties point at the other as we go off the cliff.

It isn't a pretty picture.

[Benjammin]

I don't understand why the Trump supporting snowflakes are getting their panties in a bundle over an ad that accurately portrays how evil and despicable they are. Don't like the truth? Don't be evil and despicable.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/virginia-ad-features-minority-kids-chased-by-truck-with-gillespie-sticker-confederate-flag/2017/10/30/7311fdda-bd6f-11e7-97d9-bdab5a0ab381_story.html?tid=magnet&utm_term=.e3b89a514064

Do you really believe that? Wow. I guess stereotypes only work one way?

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[montestewart]

I don't understand why the Trump supporting snowflakes are getting their panties in a bundle over an ad that accurately portrays how evil and despicable they are. Don't like the truth? Don't be evil and despicable.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/virginia-ad-features-minority-kids-chased-by-truck-with-gillespie-sticker-confederate-flag/2017/10/30/7311fdda-bd6f-11e7-97d9-bdab5a0ab381_story.html?tid=magnet&utm_term=.e3b89a514064

Do you really believe that? Wow. I guess stereotypes only work one way?

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Seems like a fair response ad, considering Gillespie's sensationalized attack ads, which unfortunately seem to be working. Northam's gotta do the same if he wants to keep up. Gillespie brought the Confederate flag into the conversation first with an attack ad. Fair's fair.

[Benjammin]

That's not my point. I was asking Zonker if he really believed that?

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[Pointgod]

I don't understand why the Trump supporting snowflakes are getting their panties in a bundle over an ad that accurately portrays how evil and despicable they are. Don't like the truth? Don't be evil and despicable.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/virginia-ad-features-minority-kids-chased-by-truck-with-gillespie-sticker-confederate-flag/2017/10/30/7311fdda-bd6f-11e7-97d9-bdab5a0ab381_story.html?tid=magnet&utm_term=.e3b89a514064

Do you really believe that? Wow. I guess stereotypes only work one way?

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Yeah something like that would never happen in real life....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/georgia-atlanta-couple-jailed-confederate-flag-racist-attack-child-birthday-a7603666.html

Pair shouted racial slurs, threatened to kill partygoers - including children - waved Confederate flags and even pointed a shotgun, court heard

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess these people aren't Democrats or Green party members.

[Benjammin]

I don't understand why the Trump supporting snowflakes are getting their panties in a bundle over an ad that accurately portrays how evil and despicable they are. Don't like the truth? Don't be evil and despicable.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/virginia-ad-features-minority-kids-chased-by-truck-with-gillespie-sticker-confederate-flag/2017/10/30/7311fdda-bd6f-11e7-97d9-bdab5a0ab381_story.html?tid=magnet&utm_term=.e3b89a514064

Do you really believe that? Wow. I guess stereotypes only work one way?

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Yeah something like that would never happen in real life....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/georgia-atlanta-couple-jailed-confederate-flag-racist-attack-child-birthday-a7603666.html

Pair shouted racial slurs, threatened to kill partygoers - including children - waved Confederate flags and even pointed a shotgun, court heard

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess these people aren't Democrats or Green party members.

I'm neither for the left or right, but they equally repulse me with their true believer dogmatic attitudes.

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[Pointgod]

I posted a year or two ago that the die is cast and that the two main factions in society have irreconcilable differences that cannot be papered over for much longer. We’re starting to see our institutions come apart at the seams. I read recently that only one in seven military aged youth are qualified to serve. I believe the main reasons were obesity, substance abuse and lack of education. Rampant sexual exploitation in Hollywood, the East Coast media and in state houses across the country is just the latest manifestation of a people that have lost their moorings.

You forgot to mention the election of a president who mocks disabled people, brags about grabbing women by their private parts and stiffs people who do work for him.

We were warned hundreds of years ago that our constitution would only work for a moral people. Government of, by, and for the people requires it. As a father of a 21 year old son and a 29 year old daughter I always believed it was my duty to ensure our kids understood the difference between right and wrong. TBH, I have to give my wife most of the credit as I’m about as deeply flawed a person as one can be. The point is though, that as a society, we’re falling woefully short in setting good examples and teaching our youth about the benefits and happiness that accompany a life well lived. IMO in needs to be part of our public school curriculum.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. History informs us that if the people are unable to govern themselves then some sort of authoritative power will have to intervene and once entrenched, will be almost impossible to dislodge. I’m not optimistic.

And what example are we setting for our kids when we adults vote into the White House a man with a deeply flawed character who lies on auto-pilot, considers white nationalists "good people," and regularly uses his twitter account to bully, divide and taunt people?

Yes, history will show that we failed our children (and our nation) when we allowed DT to be elected president.

Did we fail our children before Trump was elected? Why politicize a problem that’s been decades in the making? What useful purpose does that serve?

I think his point is that Trump was a culmination of moral failings not that they appeared when he was elected. If the President of the US represents the mood of the American people, then what does it say about Americans that they elected a morally bankrupt, self serving idiot like Trump?

I mean you can't divorce the loss of morality from electing Trump. But it's a slide that's happened way before Trump and depending on who's perspective you ask has been a problem since the establishment of America as a nation. So my question is who are the factions that you are talking about because it seems like you're looking at this through a certain lense.

[Pointgod]

Do you really believe that? Wow. I guess stereotypes only work one way?

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Yeah something like that would never happen in real life....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/georgia-atlanta-couple-jailed-confederate-flag-racist-attack-child-birthday-a7603666.html

Pair shouted racial slurs, threatened to kill partygoers - including children - waved Confederate flags and even pointed a shotgun, court heard

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess these people aren't Democrats or Green party members.

I'm neither for the left or right, but they equally repulse me with their true believer dogmatic attitudes.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Two months ago in Virginia white supremacists and Nazis came together under the umbrella of "Unite the right, not unite the left or unite the centre". Confederate flag waving racists attacked people and killed an innocent person. You don't have to believe every person on the right is a Confederate flag waving maniac for you to see the danger of Trumpism.

[Benjammin]

Yeah something like that would never happen in real life....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/georgia-atlanta-couple-jailed-confederate-flag-racist-attack-child-birthday-a7603666.html



I'm going to go out on a limb and guess these people aren't Democrats or Green party members.

I'm neither for the left or right, but they equally repulse me with their true believer dogmatic attitudes.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Two months ago in Virginia white supremacists and Nazis came together under the umbrella of "Unite the right, not unite the left or unite the centre". Confederate flag waving racists attacked people and killed an innocent person. You don't have to believe every person on the right is a Confederate flag waving maniac for you to see the danger of Trumpism.

Absolutely. But calling huge groups of people evil and deplorables isn't going to advance anything either. Trump has definitely emboldened some very deplorable people and that must be met with robust resistance. Just watching the Hollywood sex abuse scandal has shown the moral bankruptcy of the elite left. But the truth is it really shows that brokenness and sometimes evil knows no bounds of race, creed, or sexual orientation.

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[long suffrin' boulez fan]

Yeah something like that would never happen in real life....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/georgia-atlanta-couple-jailed-confederate-flag-racist-attack-child-birthday-a7603666.html



I'm going to go out on a limb and guess these people aren't Democrats or Green party members.

I'm neither for the left or right, but they equally repulse me with their true believer dogmatic attitudes.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Two months ago in Virginia white supremacists and Nazis came together under the umbrella of "Unite the right, not unite the left or unite the centre". Confederate flag waving racists attacked people and killed an innocent person. You don't have to believe every person on the right is a Confederate flag waving maniac for you to see the danger of Trumpism.

Thank you for reminding us of that. That Nazi murderer killed Heather Heyer less than seven blocks from my home, on a street where my young children play