The Bucks player personnel issues under LED

[crkone]

I wonder what real incentive an owner has to make a winning team.

NBA teams are designed to go through cycles because of parity, cap and draft rules. Trying to maintain success long term is like trying to fight the whole universe, it's pretty much impossible. And yet you are guaranteed to make a tonne of money when you sell, and if you make some losses temporarily, those loses will be offset by the revenue sharing agreement, no big deal. I would argue that the popularity of the League in China and the real estate deals with the City are way way more important for the owners than wins are.

I actually also wonder what real incentives NBA GM's, coaches and even players have to make a winning team, but that is a much longer post.

I imagine some owners see only an investment, and for those owners W-L is not as important as EBITDA. However, I suspect LED are more like Ballmer and Cuban -- rich-guy owner-fans who care about winning an October regular season game as much as us less-well-heeled fans do.



The normal fan response seems to me to be incentive enough. The bigger danger, I think, is owners who love too much and end up failing to resist the temptation to meddle. I'm in the minority on this board in thinking that doesn't really happen too much and isn't happening with this crew.

Is meddling hiring the coach without the GM knowing?

[sidney lanier]

Is meddling hiring the coach without the GM knowing?

No, we call that a New York state of mind. These East Coast high-finance guys are always going to come in and do things in ways Midwesterners are going to see as pushy and presumptuous. I distinguish between flip-the-script corporate turnaround type moves like the Kidd hiring, and mutatis mutandis ongoing meddling. It's the latter I don't think is happening.

[M-C-G]

.

PP, I'm throwing this idea out to you and the group, but for years people have been claiming if the Bucks board was the GM we'd be in much better position. So we should set up a thread, where we collectively make a decision and carry a virtual roster forward.

We'd probably have to put some ground rules in place for how it would work, but that is the kind of thing if you kept it going for a couple of seasons, like Giannis next three seasons, it could definitively prove or disprove how smart we are, how dumb they are or vice versa.

Not sure what all the rules would be, like to vote on a trade, we'd need to at least be linked to the player and determine what we would realistically give up and maybe take it to the trade board to see if it would be accepted. Draft picks would be from the consensus thread. The idea of acquiring a pick for cash in the second round could be raised and voted on, etc.

I think it would take some work and it would take some interest by a decent number of posters here, but I think it would be a pretty bad ass thing to pull off, especially if we want to emphasis the glaring holes in our management.

[0BobLobLaw0]

.

PP, I'm throwing this idea out to you and the group, but for years people have been claiming if the Bucks board was the GM we'd be in much better position. So we should set up a thread, where we collectively make a decision and carry a virtual roster forward.

We'd probably have to put some ground rules in place for how it would work, but that is the kind of thing if you kept it going for a couple of seasons, like Giannis next three seasons, it could definitively prove or disprove how smart we are, how dumb they are or vice versa.

Not sure what all the rules would be, like to vote on a trade, we'd need to at least be linked to the player and determine what we would realistically give up and maybe take it to the trade board to see if it would be accepted. Draft picks would be from the consensus thread. The idea of acquiring a pick for cash in the second round could be raised and voted on, etc.

I think it would take some work and it would take some interest by a decent number of posters here, but I think it would be a pretty bad ass thing to pull off, especially if we want to emphasis the glaring holes in our management.

How could you tangibly measure the success of the roster to prove a point?

Sounds cool, but not much different than a proposed trade/FA thread.

[M-C-G]

.

PP, I'm throwing this idea out to you and the group, but for years people have been claiming if the Bucks board was the GM we'd be in much better position. So we should set up a thread, where we collectively make a decision and carry a virtual roster forward.

We'd probably have to put some ground rules in place for how it would work, but that is the kind of thing if you kept it going for a couple of seasons, like Giannis next three seasons, it could definitively prove or disprove how smart we are, how dumb they are or vice versa.

Not sure what all the rules would be, like to vote on a trade, we'd need to at least be linked to the player and determine what we would realistically give up and maybe take it to the trade board to see if it would be accepted. Draft picks would be from the consensus thread. The idea of acquiring a pick for cash in the second round could be raised and voted on, etc.

I think it would take some work and it would take some interest by a decent number of posters here, but I think it would be a pretty bad ass thing to pull off, especially if we want to emphasis the glaring holes in our management.

How could you tangibly measure the success of the roster to prove a point?

Sounds cool, but not much different than a proposed trade/FA thread.

Let's say for instance we started this a few seasons ago and we collective choose not to trade for Greives Vasquez, took the Laker pick in the Knight trade, and chose to buy a 2nd round pick each of the last two years and decided that Plumlee was going to be forced to play out the QO.

Even if there isn't a quantitative way to measure how much better we would be (and maybe there is), looking at a roster, salary cap and future assets it would be pretty easy to see how much better or worse off we have been.

[trwi7]

Is meddling hiring the coach without the GM knowing?

No, we call that a New York state of mind.

No, we call that meddling.

interfere in or busy oneself unduly with something that is not one's concern.

[Chuck Diesel]

The Steve Novak signing was a pretty inconsequential move that's still annoying and highlights how little this team has cared about the little things in team building.

Totally. At some point I made a list of guys who were signed within a month of us picking up the corpses of Steve Novak & Kenyon Martin. Guys like JayMichael Green, Tyler Johnson, Langston Galloway, Sean Kilpatrick, Alan Williams, James Ennis, Lance Thomas, Tim Frazier. Not that that's a group of world beaters, but finding contributing value like locked into minimum deals is really beneficial.

[bizarro]

The Steve Novak signing was a pretty inconsequential move that's still annoying and highlights how little this team has cared about the little things in team building.

Totally. At some point I made a list of guys who were signed within a month of us picking up the corpses of Steve Novak & Kenyon Martin. Guys like JayMichael Green, Tyler Johnson, Langston Galloway, Sean Kilpatrick, Alan Williams, James Ennis, Lance Thomas, Tim Frazier. Not that is a group of world beaters, but finding contributing value like locked into minimum deals is really beneficial.

My oh my, that 2015/2016 roster was just ouch. Copeland, Novak, Vasquez, Cunningham, MCW, a rookie Vaughn...I mean.

[Chuck Diesel]

The Steve Novak signing was a pretty inconsequential move that's still annoying and highlights how little this team has cared about the little things in team building.

Totally. At some point I made a list of guys who were signed within a month of us picking up the corpses of Steve Novak & Kenyon Martin. Guys like JayMichael Green, Tyler Johnson, Langston Galloway, Sean Kilpatrick, Alan Williams, James Ennis, Lance Thomas, Tim Frazier. Not that is a group of world beaters, but finding contributing value like locked into minimum deals is really beneficial.

My oh my, that 2015/2016 roster was just ouch. Copeland, Novak, Vasquez, Cunningham, MCW, a rookie Vaughn...I mean.

Miles "52 million" Plumlee, really bad Henson, still not quite right Jabari, about to be kicked out of the league OJ Mayo, unplayable Damien Inglis, Tyler Ennis, Johnny O'Bryant. Just brutal. We were saying it that whole summer too.

[sidney lanier]

Is meddling hiring the coach without the GM knowing?

No, we call that a New York state of mind.

No, we call that meddling.

interfere in or busy oneself unduly with something that is not one's concern.

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/why-new-yorkers-think-we-better-than-everyone-else

I can go on and on about why us New Yorkers “think” we’re the better than everyone else and walk around with our heads held high. It’s not just being cocky. We just have pride in where we are from and are taught that we should be. So, next time you throw shade at the north, remember where you got your outfit inspiration from (New York Fashion Week?), or where your dream job is located, or even your favorite rapper. It was probably, yes,I'll say it again, New York.

[Ron Swanson]

It's semantics. Meddling is meddling whether you're from NYC or not. Cuban was an atrocious front office meddler, and constantly drew negative attention to himself with his court side antics and public statements. Attanasio meddled when he first bought the Brewers. But both guys eventually wised up and let capable basketball/baseball executives make the decisions. Hopefully LED have that same epiphany sooner rather than later.

[Pachinko_]

well, theres an incentive to win because the more you win the more money you make. but if youre too dumb to figure out how to win, second prize is still making oodles of money. especially when you have giannis.

Exactly
the incremental money to be made from wins seem immaterial compare to the effort (and money) you need to put in to force the issue. Much easier to not force it, just look like yuo have a plan while doing the bare minimum. And wait for the real payday which is when you sell the team.

TLDR: I don't think your typical owner gives a **** about wins.

[paulpressey25]

PP, I'm throwing this idea out to you and the group, but for years people have been claiming if the Bucks board was the GM we'd be in much better position. So we should set up a thread, where we collectively make a decision and carry a virtual roster forward.

We'd probably have to put some ground rules in place for how it would work, but that is the kind of thing if you kept it going for a couple of seasons, like Giannis next three seasons, it could definitively prove or disprove how smart we are, how dumb they are or vice versa.

So we probably would start a thread and call it "Summary Moves RGM would have made/not made". Then when someone has an idea or a trade situation pops up we do a separate poll thread on that trade and put a summary in the master thread. What do people think of that.

Example: we run a poll and say how many would trade Thon/Delly for Bledsoe? Put results in master thread.

How many would sign Isiah Canaan? Jameer Nelson?

We need to talk this through as I like the idea.

[HKPackFan]

You guys keep referring to Horst, the "Cap Expert" and then discussing salary and moves.


You DO realize what the Bucks meant when they referred to Horst as the Cap Expert right????

[emunney]

The snakeskin one is the salary cap.

[KidA24]

Without a doubt the biggest problem. Roster flexibility is the name of the game these days and here we are locking in fringe starters to long term deals. We really, really need to learn from that

The 2016 offseason was the biggest calamity ever. 4 year deals for Delly/Plum, 3 year deal for Telly. The Henson deal the year before in particular was egregious. We give a max deal to Monroe... then give Henson a 4 year extension. The guy was solid poop for 3 years save for a couple games in the playoffs and we give him a 4 year deal to be a back up. Absurd.

Think about the fact that we extended or signed a starting center 4 years in a row if I am not mistaken. Sanders, Henson, Monroe, Plumlee...continuity and all

4 in less than 3 years, actually. Sanders was August 2013, Henson was Oct 2015, Monroe was July 2015 and Plumlee was July 2016.

[trwi7]

Great. Now I want these.

[Chuck Diesel]

The funny/sad thing is they keep trying to tell us these are good rosters.

[TJseven]

Owners meddle. Look at a team that is dreadfully put together and I almost promise you owners meddle. Its documented in cleveland nfl... buffalo nfl. Coaches meddle... owners meddle... gms who don't deserve their job or dont feel secure in their job appease them to not get fired.

We are that franchise. If you don't see meddle here... beyond hiring kidd horst... then you just don't want to.

[TroyD92]

How many games in row does it take before Kidd is fired? Would going winless on this road trip do it?