Political Roundtable Part XV

[stilldropin20]

This is really interesting Ruz - definitely a mind changer.

Thank you sir. It educated me.

There is a weird timetable to this though. DNC being bankrupt - doesn't really change my mind on their incompetence.

But HRC as a fundraiser is big-time. And that the money was parsed out evenly to the states that were in play makes sense. Seems like she wasn't the problem - it was those that were in charge before she came on - I guess. Still figuring this one out.

I mean, HRC should have realized it just wasnt meant to be for her. she didn't have the appetite and stamina to campaign. not sure if she just felt above it? perhaps.

But the entire D party would have been better off if she came in. did the fundraising. and dropped out. Bernie would have likely won.

And there is the fact that she was a terribly flawed candidate far beyond anything to do with strong arming the DNC into the nomination.

and its not just donna brazile...who we all know was complicit.

Elizebeth Warren flat out said today on CNN that the DNC primaries were "rigged for Hillary." She flat out understood the question from Tapper. and flat out confirmed it confirming it was rigged. I thought that was ballsy. i respected her more today that at any part of the last 2 years. Thats the kind of accountability i like to see in politicians. Its the first time in forever where i feel like there might be a politician i can actually trust.

If im feeling that way others certainly will as well. I have a good barometer for these things. just like I honestly knew trump would win in July 2016. If warren can sip more of the koolaide she had today, full look in the mirror. point to problems with HRC, point to failures of Obama, tell us the truth in ways we can actually pay for some of the bernie platform, and frankly steal some of trumps ideas that resonated. If she can do that. she can win in 2020.

getting back to HRC and Brazile. I think warrne would know since she was also an early candidate and quite involved beginning to end. i think she would know as would brazile. hopefully neither back track much further or not at all.

and in all honesty this is the best way to play it for the DNC. Point fingers and name names. Distance themselves from both HRC and Obama. Not that obama isn't an awesome orator/politician. he's one of the best. but he just didn't do much. and half the country or more werent impressed with the actual policies.

If Warren sticks to this storyline and continues to tell the truth. I can easily see myself coming around and getting behind her. But the dems need to keep cleaning their own house. continue to admit and own their massive missteps. and frankly take some queues from the trump campaign. not the brazen wreckless stuff but understand the entire country. be willing to represent folks in small town america even if they choose to live different. basically stop demonizing americans for thinking differently and being less educated. we are not going to see everything eye to eye. and some people are slower to get "adjusted." they will however come around. or the next generation will. but american is american. all americans should feel represented.

in that vein, id like to see dems go back after the working class vote and the poor. open up real avenues for the poor to become working class and working class to work their way into the upper class. and do so at the expense of the entrenched upper class elites. do that and they can have my vote again.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[Wizardspride]

Yeah....

Read on Twitter

[Wizardspride]

So Donna Brazile is already backtracking on her whole "rigged" claim.

Read on Twitter

As other posters have clarified she seems to have been "mistaken" about the forms that were signed. Here is real time supporting evidence:

https://www.politico.com/story/2015/08/dnc-democratic-committee-hillary-clinton-fundraising-agreement-2016-121813

When Clinton clinched the nomination
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/06/08/politics/hillary-clinton-fundraising-dnc-democratic-national-convention/index.html

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/06/16/politics/hillary-clinton-campaign-dnc/index.html

Bernie signed the same agreement as Clinton and he could have taken advantage but he wasn't focused on fundraising for state races.

Here's an article that highlights how monumentally stupid Braziles rigged comments are

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/donna-brazile-needs-to-back-up-her-self-serving-claims

Yeah, she's getting destroyed on twitter by "people in the know."

Also, NBC compared the two memos and yeah, different ones.

[Wizardspride]

Random Observation: I'm amazed Trump has made it as far as he has in life because he displays absolutely no discipline.

Also, doesn't come across as particularly intelligent either.

I mean I think he's knowlegeable in his field of expertise but overall. he doesn't "scream deep thinker".

I guess it pays to have a wealthy father.

[Wizardspride]

Here is the story posted by Donna Brazille on Politico.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-brazile-hacks-2016-215774

Why did she feel she owed anything to Bernie - not a DNC member.

If there was any notion that HRC was corrupt - it should end here.

If there was any notion that the DNC wasn't complicit - it should end with this.

If there is any notion that the DNC isn't incompetent - it should end here.

For those solidly in the D camp - you should flat out pissed off. You should know that your party nominated a bad candidate. And we got Trump. Instead of looking at how bad the Rs are - you probably want to focus internally on how to clean up this mess.

bravo!

and to think, i've got about 3-4 hardline libs on here that can't believe that I voted for Obama and Bernie. and now fully revolted against my own party, have gone independent, and now feel more aligned with right wing politics than left.

The libs, the entire left and the DNC really need to clean its own house.

The biggest issue i see is just basic ideology. 98% or more of the DNC feels it can serve 2 masters at opposite ends of the political spectrum. The wealthiest elite ruling class(cuz they need money) and the poorest folk in inner cities and small towns(cuz they need votes). This is just not logical. And their policies will never reconcile themselves. These 2 groups are as diametrically opposed as any 2 groups can be opposed.

you just cant serve both of these master and make sense. policy just wont follow logic and be responsible to both. and frankly the poor should never compromise for the wealthy. and if the wealthy do compromise themselves for the poor it will be at the expense of the working class(who in theory have worked harder)...which in turn will also cap the poor's ceiling to that of working class. what you will end up with is illogical policy for either the poor or working class or both.

Ok This is gonna be good.

The Dems/DNCs are attempting to serve two masters according to you.

Well tell me who the GOP is serving?

I'm all ears.


PS: No one is criticizing you for becoming a Republican. People's ideologies change
What people are confused by is how ABRUPT your change was. You literally went from being a lifelong Dem to switching sides within MONTHS. OK. I get it. You feel like Bernie was screwed....so then you decide to support the man and party that are diametrically opposed to what Bernie stands for?

Can you at least see why some of us are like "WTF?"

It's basically like being a lifelong Lakers fan and then within the course of 6 months I'm all Boston.

You feeling Bernie was screwed shouldn't have made you suddenly become a Republican....unless you just weren't that much of a liberal in the first place.

And if you weren't, it begs the question WHY were you supporting far left Bernie Sanders to begin with?

[dckingsfan]

@Wizardspride - Are you saying the Ds are fine? Or are you just saying that the Rs are worse?

Because after reading everything I could on the matter - I come to the conclusion (which might be outcome bias) that the DNC at best was incompetent. I do have more respect for HRC in the matter - she raised a lot of money and used it to her advantage. I still have little respect for the campaign that she waged.

As for the Rs - they don't seem to have a clue as to how to govern at the federal level. Pretty ugly anyway you cut it. It could set back Rs at the federal level for a long time to come.

[Wizardspride]

@Wizardspride - Are you saying the Ds are fine? Or are you just saying that the Rs are worse?

Because after reading everything I could on the matter - I come to the conclusion (which might be outcome bias) that the DNC at best was incompetent. I do have more respect for HRC in the matter - she raised a lot of money and used it to her advantage. I still have little respect for the campaign that she waged.

As for the Rs - they don't seem to have a clue as to how to govern at the federal level. Pretty ugly anyway you cut it. It could set back Rs at the federal level for a long time to come.

Organizationally I think the Democrats have some major issues.

Now if we're talking about actual issues/policies I believe they are truly the better party.

They just need to do a better job presenting their vision to the American public imo.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Dc, I'm not a hardcore dem, although perhaps it may seem that way lately, but I also disagree that Dems should only be focused on cleaning up their party. Of course they need to do that, but let's not pretend like ignoring everything else is a viable option here.

And while I'm not wiazardspride, yes, the Republicans are much, much worse right now. And that's saying something because the Democrats have set a pretty low bar. Even lifelong Republican polticians clearly feel that way lately and their voices break through on occasion when they no longer need to stay unified for electoral purposes.

This isn't a case of both sides equally have issues. Both sides have issues, absolutely, but that kind of thinking is compleyely dismissing what is actually happening in the country right nkw and why - I know you don't feel that way, but it is nonetheless.

[Pointgod]

So Donna Brazile is already backtracking on her whole "rigged" claim.

Read on Twitter

As other posters have clarified she seems to have been "mistaken" about the forms that were signed. Here is real time supporting evidence:

https://www.politico.com/story/2015/08/dnc-democratic-committee-hillary-clinton-fundraising-agreement-2016-121813

When Clinton clinched the nomination
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/06/08/politics/hillary-clinton-fundraising-dnc-democratic-national-convention/index.html

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/06/16/politics/hillary-clinton-campaign-dnc/index.html

Bernie signed the same agreement as Clinton and he could have taken advantage but he wasn't focused on fundraising for state races.

Here's an article that highlights how monumentally stupid Braziles rigged comments are

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/donna-brazile-needs-to-back-up-her-self-serving-claims

Yeah, she's getting destroyed on twitter by "people in the know."

Also, NBC compared the two memos and yeah, different ones.

Evidence to the contrary may soon surface but it seems like there are some mea culpas in order. I wonder if people like Elizabeth Warren will come out and admit they're wrong for the whole rigged claim.

[Pointgod]

@Wizardspride - Are you saying the Ds are fine? Or are you just saying that the Rs are worse?

Because after reading everything I could on the matter - I come to the conclusion (which might be outcome bias) that the DNC at best was incompetent. I do have more respect for HRC in the matter - she raised a lot of money and used it to her advantage. I still have little respect for the campaign that she waged.

As for the Rs - they don't seem to have a clue as to how to govern at the federal level. Pretty ugly anyway you cut it. It could set back Rs at the federal level for a long time to come.

Here is the problem with the always trying to equate both sides. There is a legitimate argument that you can make about the DNC being incompetent but this goes into the whole conspiracy theory realm that the DNC is some shadowy organization that rigs elections and operates like an organized crime ring. This only divides the Democratic Party because now Sanders supporters are like "see rigged" while ignoring any evidence to the contrary.

I think Republicans maybe immoral hypocrites but God bless them they fall inline and would never let anything like the Donna Brazile article happen within their party. Hell they ignored that it was a Republican that initially funded the oppo research against Trump.

The Dems need to reform the DNC, but the bigger picture is they have to start reclaiming seats in congress, governorships and state legislatures. The real fight is against gerrymandering and voter suppression. Focusing on interparty squabbling is like worrying about the broken fridge while your house is on fire.

[stilldropin20]

Why did she feel she owed anything to Bernie - not a DNC member.

If there was any notion that HRC was corrupt - it should end here.

If there was any notion that the DNC wasn't complicit - it should end with this.

If there is any notion that the DNC isn't incompetent - it should end here.

For those solidly in the D camp - you should flat out pissed off. You should know that your party nominated a bad candidate. And we got Trump. Instead of looking at how bad the Rs are - you probably want to focus internally on how to clean up this mess.

bravo!

and to think, i've got about 3-4 hardline libs on here that can't believe that I voted for Obama and Bernie. and now fully revolted against my own party, have gone independent, and now feel more aligned with right wing politics than left.

The libs, the entire left and the DNC really need to clean its own house.

The biggest issue i see is just basic ideology. 98% or more of the DNC feels it can serve 2 masters at opposite ends of the political spectrum. The wealthiest elite ruling class(cuz they need money) and the poorest folk in inner cities and small towns(cuz they need votes). This is just not logical. And their policies will never reconcile themselves. These 2 groups are as diametrically opposed as any 2 groups can be opposed.

you just cant serve both of these master and make sense. policy just wont follow logic and be responsible to both. and frankly the poor should never compromise for the wealthy. and if the wealthy do compromise themselves for the poor it will be at the expense of the working class(who in theory have worked harder)...which in turn will also cap the poor's ceiling to that of working class. what you will end up with is illogical policy for either the poor or working class or both.

Ok This is gonna be good.

The Dems/DNCs are attempting to serve two masters according to you.

Well tell me who the GOP is serving?

I'm all ears.


PS: No one is criticizing you for becoming a Republican. People's ideologies change
What people are confused by is how ABRUPT your change was. You literally went from being a lifelong Dem to switching sides within MONTHS. OK. I get it. You feel like Bernie was screwed....so then you decide to support the man and party that are diametrically opposed to what Bernie stands for?

Can you at least see why some of us are like "WTF?"

It's basically like being a lifelong Lakers fan and then within the course of 6 months I'm all Boston.

You feeling Bernie was screwed shouldn't have made you suddenly become a Republican....unless you just weren't that much of a liberal in the first place.

And if you weren't, it begs the question WHY were you supporting far left Bernie Sanders to begin with?

have you even read my 80 page diatribe on bankers? seriously bro. start at around page 16 and re-read. every other post os about bankers. then go check bernies stance on bankers and wall street. now bernies version is rather kindergarten or got a dime for a cup of coffee. But at least he was willing to point the finger and name names. not sure he actually understands banking, though.

Bernie and Trump have nearly identical positions on trade.

both bernie and trump see issues in healthcare. both want change. bernie more radical (single payer).

Trump was smart enough to ride some of the bernie platform once bernie dropped out. and frankly this isn't some new theory. i'm not alone. many bernie supporters secretly went to trump. i'm just not secret about it. I know who I am. and i vote on what hopefully will be needle moving policy. trump vision moved the needle. HRC's did not.

furthermore, as i stated back when i jumped in. there was absolutely no possible way i could vote for HRC. HRC(and Bill) and Obama are 2 of the biggest reasons why the modern era D's feel they can (and chose) to serve the 2 masters, the elite billionaires and the poor. because both clearly entered office to get rich. and that's flat out dispicable to me. You can enter public office poor and "get rich" because the likeliness that you "got rich" on the back of the american tax payer is extremely high. See Uranium One, Rosatom, Clinton foundation and other while HRC was a sitting US senator and then sec of state. and even on her current campaign.

I mean she raised half a trillion dollars in like a year!!!!!!!! and that's what 50 years in politics will do. give you a rolodex to print money. so she essentially broke the spirit of current campaign finance reform and laws by virtue of having the massive head start on Bernie then trump. I mean why even have the damn campaign finance reform??? And thats the buried lead in the Donna Brazile take down. That the Clinton political machine had a built in work around to campaign finance laws. All other candidates were 50 years behind in compiling the massive rolodex.

and this is what is even more disgusting. she can raise half a trillion in a year just to run for office. and we cant wipe out a 20 trillion dollar deficit and no one is interested in paying that down because we dont have a party that the bankers dont have in their pocket.

So that's my issue with the Clintons. in a nut shell. On top of the fact that Bill tarnished his reputaiton so he couldn't campaign for Gore. HRC backed her sexual predator husband, yet ran as a "feminist." All the while soaking up 100's of millions from the middle east where women are 2nd class citizens and lbgtq are often killed. Thats just didn't pass the smell test for me. it stunk. I just didn't want to see her in office for 8 years. I think she would have killed this country.

My issue Obama is really just one thing. 2008. he could have crushed the banks. nationalized them and wiped out the debt with the swoop of a the pen. issued green backs like lincoln did. Then sold the banks back to bankers with a completely different banking constitution. instead we got too big to fail. History is going to be harsh on Obama for that mis step once more and more people begin to understand how modern (since 1913) banking really works in this country. Obama had 'em by the ballz!! and for all his glitz and glam IQ. and for however smart he comes off. and his harvard degrees. he didn't realize he had em by the frickin' ballz. I mean, he didn't even squeeze em!! just cupped and carressed as they splooged all over his face for 8 years. damn shame.

[dckingsfan]

Organizationally I think the Democrats have some major issues.

Structurally/Attitudinally/Logistically - not just organizationally, right? I think the DNC is a functionally broken entity and has been for quite some time. Maybe the knowledge of how badly the DNC has functioned and behaved + Trump will finally have an affect - we will see - I am not holding my breath. Loyalist Ds don't seem to see it this way.

Now if we're talking about actual issues/policies I believe they are truly the better party.

I agree with this. I don't think there is a question about that but we probably both lean the same direction. But they have some major policy issues of their own that keep biting them.

They just need to do a better job presenting their vision to the American public imo.

And this as well. They seem to have lost their way here - guessing that they will be handed back power through the incompetence of the Rs without having to address this - but that is just a guess.

[dckingsfan]

Here is the problem with the always trying to equate both sides.

Why would anyone try to equate - you compare and contrast. And you should do so at the local, the state and the federal level. And you should do it candidate by candidate.

When you do that you see the failings of both parties with respect to their platforms/policies, implementations and logistics.

When you don't do that - then you can never see the places where your party (R or D) needs to improve. And that allows the various lobbying groups to continue to sway legislation. And that is where we have come with our tribalistic machinations.

If most Rs looked at Trump as Trump and not as an R president, don't you think they would have a problem with their president?

[montestewart]

Spoiler:

Why did she feel she owed anything to Bernie - not a DNC member.

If there was any notion that HRC was corrupt - it should end here.

If there was any notion that the DNC wasn't complicit - it should end with this.

If there is any notion that the DNC isn't incompetent - it should end here.

For those solidly in the D camp - you should flat out pissed off. You should know that your party nominated a bad candidate. And we got Trump. Instead of looking at how bad the Rs are - you probably want to focus internally on how to clean up this mess.

bravo!

and to think, i've got about 3-4 hardline libs on here that can't believe that I voted for Obama and Bernie. and now fully revolted against my own party, have gone independent, and now feel more aligned with right wing politics than left.

The libs, the entire left and the DNC really need to clean its own house.

The biggest issue i see is just basic ideology. 98% or more of the DNC feels it can serve 2 masters at opposite ends of the political spectrum. The wealthiest elite ruling class(cuz they need money) and the poorest folk in inner cities and small towns(cuz they need votes). This is just not logical. And their policies will never reconcile themselves. These 2 groups are as diametrically opposed as any 2 groups can be opposed.

you just cant serve both of these master and make sense. policy just wont follow logic and be responsible to both. and frankly the poor should never compromise for the wealthy. and if the wealthy do compromise themselves for the poor it will be at the expense of the working class(who in theory have worked harder)...which in turn will also cap the poor's ceiling to that of working class. what you will end up with is illogical policy for either the poor or working class or both.

Ok This is gonna be good.

The Dems/DNCs are attempting to serve two masters according to you.

Well tell me who the GOP is serving?

I'm all ears.


PS: No one is criticizing you for becoming a Republican. People's ideologies change
What people are confused by is how ABRUPT your change was. You literally went from being a lifelong Dem to switching sides within MONTHS. OK. I get it. You feel like Bernie was screwed....so then you decide to support the man and party that are diametrically opposed to what Bernie stands for?

Can you at least see why some of us are like "WTF?"

It's basically like being a lifelong Lakers fan and then within the course of 6 months I'm all Boston.

You feeling Bernie was screwed shouldn't have made you suddenly become a Republican....unless you just weren't that much of a liberal in the first place.

And if you weren't, it begs the question WHY were you supporting far left Bernie Sanders to begin with?

An observational point: in the 2000 election, there were a variety of positions more or less similarly embraced by Democratic and Republican platforms, while being rejected by both Ralph Nader and Pat Buchanan. The outsider candidates often go against the grain of the dominant parties and embrace positions the Democratic and Republican parties will not, as those parties are perhaps too much captive to big money lobbies.

Sanders offered a broad platform to a broad audience of people who felt overlooked by both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party. Trump is nothing but a huckster and a charlatan, with 40+ documented years of dickishness in the public eye which has to be virtually wholly ignored in order to believe him. He did, however, have intuition and charisma, and in his oafish and nonsensical way, offered certain messages that I can see resonating with some disaffected Sanders voters, along with a wide swath of conservative independents. Too bad, because the guy's a total mess.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[stilldropin20]

Random Observation: I'm amazed Trump has made it as far as he has in life because he displays absolutely no discipline.

Also, doesn't come across as particularly intelligent either.

I mean I think he's knowlegeable in his field of expertise but overall. he doesn't "scream deep thinker".

I guess it pays to have a wealthy father.

i know. this dude just cant zip it. lol. he keeps giving his opponents fuel. toys with obstruction of justice at least weekly.

It's weird though for me. he is the elected leader of the executive branch. we elected him. he should control that branch. in essence he gets to write history. just like Obama did. Just like Clinton and Bush did.

the problem with Trump is that he clearly doesn't understand how this works. how to work behind the scenes. something Obama was clearly well schooled.

[stilldropin20]

So Donna Brazile is already backtracking on her whole "rigged" claim.

Read on Twitter

As other posters have clarified she seems to have been "mistaken" about the forms that were signed. Here is real time supporting evidence:

https://www.politico.com/story/2015/08/dnc-democratic-committee-hillary-clinton-fundraising-agreement-2016-121813

When Clinton clinched the nomination
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/06/08/politics/hillary-clinton-fundraising-dnc-democratic-national-convention/index.html

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/06/16/politics/hillary-clinton-campaign-dnc/index.html

Bernie signed the same agreement as Clinton and he could have taken advantage but he wasn't focused on fundraising for state races.

Here's an article that highlights how monumentally stupid Braziles rigged comments are

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/donna-brazile-needs-to-back-up-her-self-serving-claims

Yeah, she's getting destroyed on twitter by "people in the know."

Also, NBC compared the two memos and yeah, different ones.

Evidence to the contrary may soon surface but it seems like there are some mea culpas in order. I wonder if people like Elizabeth Warren will come out and admit they're wrong for the whole rigged claim.

there is no reason to back track. I loved it when she said that. you actually think she said that on a whim!!!??

This was a calculated move and it worked imo. i began to listen immediately. and frankly, she bored me on the campaign trail.

and as opinionated as i come off in this thread, i seldem find a candidate that i personally will go vote for. so if she has me listeneing, a swing voter. she should stick to her guns and use this to launch herself in 2020.

she will need swing voter like me. she will need better turnout than what HRC got. This worked. hardline libs like you need to support her. get on twitter and congratulate her. That's how she can win in 2020.

[Wizardspride]

Dude....

Read on Twitter

[Pointgod]

Here is the problem with the always trying to equate both sides.

Why would anyone try to equate - you compare and contrast. And you should do so at the local, the state and the federal level. And you should do it candidate by candidate.

When you do that you see the failings of both parties with respect to their platforms/policies, implementations and logistics.

When you don't do that - then you can never see the places where your party (R or D) needs to improve. And that allows the various lobbying groups to continue to sway legislation. And that is where we have come with our tribalistic machinations.

If most Rs looked at Trump as Trump and not as an R president, don't you think they would have a problem with their president?

Introspection and critically analyzing candidates at all levels is important, but not to the point of self flagellation. Claiming that the DNC rigged the primary without proof only serves to further divide the party and gives the right wing great talking points for the next couple of elections. It alienates the voters of a party that has poor turnout in anything outside of general elections.

At this point it's pretty clear what both parties stand for, but they are both polar opposites. From my perspective if Democratic voters want to advance their agendas then letting Republicans win because you may disagree with the administrators of the party works against everything youre trying to achieve.

As for the Republicans and Trump. Well I know you won't like me to bring it up, but the reason Trump won is that he represents what the Republican voters want. Whether consciously or subconsciously he represents their values. The base likes him because he panders to their identity and the establishment support him because despite his populous lies, they know that he'll pass their policies. I know never Trumpers exist but how many of them are out there?