Political Roundtable Part XVI

[stilldropin20]

What is a legal firefall? Is it based on the wet sponge 70s band Firefall?

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Or perhaps based on the Yosemite Firefall ritual:

a summer time event that began in 1872 and continued for almost a century, in which burning hot embers were spilled from the top of Glacier Point in Yosemite National Park to the valley 3,000 feet below. From a distance it appeared as a glowing waterfall.

which was finally banned when Smokey the Bear said, "What are you, ****ing nuts?"

Legal firefall. That's a new one on me. Bland, yet incendiary.

incendiary? i assume you are being part facetious or just making a funny.

but some people might not know that your lawyer can never tell on you. your lawyer can never be "flipped" to testify against you. So when you hire a lawyer who hires someone to do your dirty work, that lawyer can never ever ever ever testify against you. ever. so long as their is no physical evidence, email, written note, video audio, etc. you will never be successfully prosecuted. Its even more difficult when your personal lawyer hires the law firm that farms out the dirty work and every one in the chain signs iron clad non disclosures. basically no one can turn states. and no one fears the other flipping on them so there is no pressure to turn states. You assume everyone feels secure enough to shut their traps.

for example. legally, no one at Perkins Coie(hired by HRC campaign) is going to flip on HRC. and even if they do. HRC herself made sure she wasn't in the room when perkins coie was retained with the initiative to continue the oppo reseach on trump and so long as there are no email chains, signed docs, video, etc. where HRC or her campaign were made aware of russian operators being involved in the oppo research. HRC will remain clean. Perkins coie themselves will hide behind the much less protective hiring fusion GPS and not being aware of who Fusion was using. and Fusion will hide behind the hiring of Steele. and Steele dont need to giv a fuq. he's not a US citizen. but even then, the likelihood all 5 of them have a non disclosure with each other is extremely likely. about 100%. so to sing will cost them money. lots of money. and they dont have to lie for each other. just "not recall." like Hillarry Rodham Clinton did the last time she was on the stand. 117 times.

As will trump. which makes getting a conviction on this whole collusion thing nothing more than a go nowhere spectacle that will likely cost the tax payers at least $10-20 Million. I mean we could build a new school in baltimore for that much money.

the left knows this. everyone in congress already knows this. and i'm pretty sure everyone in this damn thread knows all of this. So this is nothing more than a $10-20 Million dollar smear campaign initiated by Obama holdover James Comey...all based on the russian sourced and produced steele dossier, most of which has been completely debunked besides a 25 minute meeting where don jr was pitched russian sourced dirt on HRC. You know it. I know it. but the left gets what it wants. Some major steam taken out of the trump train. Obstruction for the win!!!!!!!

The buried lead in this outline of "legal protection" or "legal firewalls" is that most americans are completely unaware as to how our legal system really works. people dont understand how the law works. so they dont understand how to protect themselves from legal entanglements. it's an education thing. educate yourselves folks. its empowering.

[montestewart]

For those who might somehow (?!) think otherwise, STD doesn't know too much about attorney client privilege. If you hire a lawyer to break the law, the lawyer can legally be compelled to testify regarding the criminal conspiracy. Similarly, a lawyer engaged in covering up a crime can be compelled to testify. Non-disclosure agreements really don't carry much weight in court; they are not a shield against testimony. You get the idea. Consider the case of White House counsel John Dean, to name one example.

[stilldropin20]

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$450K per year is def good money. and not to be a douche. but its only $37K per month pre tax. post tax only about $25K.

a typical person that takes home 25K per month will buy a home 800k and up in my neck of the woods. maybe as much as $2 million.

$1Million home costs about .........12,000 per month.
2 nice cars cost........................2200 per months
health insurannce for a fam of 4...2500 per month.
all other expenses....................3000 per month (with low meals and entertainment)
savings..................................5000 per month (which will be spent on college and vacations, toys, meals n entertainment)

so yeah. its upper middle class. but its middle class. especially if you work in manhattan and dont want to commute. you get a nicer home and cars than other middle class and stay at nicer hotels and eat at nicer restaurants. and get better seats at the concert and games.

In chicago it goes like this:
20K and below. poor. nearly broke all time watch every dime, room mate, cheap beer, you better be a model, artist or like ugly chicks.
40K big time life change from 20k. still "feel" poor. decent but still cheap apt or cheap house or cheap condo. cheap car. still better like unfly chicks or have a big personality. but you can pay your billz and your ego remains small. take a girl out every now and then
70K life changes, much nicer apt, nice car, nice condo. nothing outlandish but your dick just grew an inch. balls got a little bigger. especially if you were once a broke ass. will need to find new friends cuz you cant afford to pay for your buddies but you can now get in the nicer clubs. can date a few women at same time and dine out, grub hub, have some fun.
120K life changes. still buying a 2 bed condo or small house in burbs but both can be appointed as if you have a lot more money. and also now afford a 100k car. dine out at expensive rests. often. nice vacations. mutiple trips to vegas and miami per year. throw some singles around at the strip club. if smart, can begin buying rental income properties and building a 401K
170-200k life changes again. just barely entering what most people refer to as "baller" life style. super high end 2 br condo or super high end luxury rental. or really nice/large/ high end home in burbs. 100k cars. 5k vaca regularly. rental income/401K

from here life doest really change until around 400K. someone who makes 400K is either really smart, or manages money really well or is really talented. or has rare skills and knows how to leverage those skills. people like this often own their own small businesses, legal, doctor, etc. or manage wealth. So this group, around which begins around 170K knows how to accumulate wealth and grow wealth. This group is in the know. they're friends and clients are in the know. They get educated on everything that affects them and they understand quickly that everything affects. They know where to speculate their wealth as well as how to develop their businesses and their speculations.

So even though this is still (upper) middle class. they usually become lower upper class quickly. For example, if I took on a real estate client that is 27 years old. doesn't come from wealth. no cash. just out of dental school. gets his first job making $450K per year. and he listens to me. he will be worth no less than $20 Million in 10-15 years. which makes up lower upper class. but for his first year out of school he is still upper middle class and will be forever he he blows all of his money on non wealth building strategies.

[stilldropin20]

For those who might somehow (?!) think otherwise, STD doesn't know too much about attorney client privilege. If you hire a lawyer to break the law, the lawyer can legally be compelled to testify regarding the criminal conspiracy. Similarly, a lawyer engaged in covering up a crime can be compelled to testify. Non-disclosure agreements really don't carry much weight in court; they are not a shield against testimony. You get the idea. Consider the case of White House counsel John Dean, to name one example.

well you never hire an attorney to actually break the law. duh. you hire an attorney that communicates to you that they can, in the case of hillary rodham clinton and her campaign, do the "legal opposition research for you." but its "understood" that they will indeed "get the job" done. the client has broken no laws. None. and layers upon layer exist for protection. these groups of people all have dirt on each other. they understand where they are exposed and where they have leverage.

or are you still pretending to yourself that the world is full of good and just people? especially at the highest level of politics.

Obama was still paying fusion gps up until this past year. Almost $1 million in 2017. where i come from, we call that "hush" money. and i understand that no legal lines will have been crossed. because Obama is waaaaaay to smart to not cross all of his T and dot his i's.

[montestewart]

For those who might somehow (?!) think otherwise, STD doesn't know too much about attorney client privilege. If you hire a lawyer to break the law, the lawyer can legally be compelled to testify regarding the criminal conspiracy. Similarly, a lawyer engaged in covering up a crime can be compelled to testify. Non-disclosure agreements really don't carry much weight in court; they are not a shield against testimony. You get the idea. Consider the case of White House counsel John Dean, to name one example.

well you never hire an attorney to actually break the law. duh. you hire an attorney that communicates to you that they can, in the case of hillary rodham clinton and her campaign, do the "legal opposition research for you." but its "understood" that they will indeed "get the job" done. the client has broken no laws. None. and layers upon layer exist for protection. these groups of people all have dirt on each other. they understand where they are exposed and where they have leverage.

or are you still pretending to yourself that the world is full of good and just people? especially at the highest level of politics.

Obama was still paying fusion gps up until this past year. Almost $1 million in 2017. where i come from, we call that "hush" money. and i understand that no legal lines will have been crossed. because Obama is waaaaaay to smart to not cross all of his T and dot his i's.

Not pretending at all. Your thoughts and writings are just too wildly disorganized to easily discern concise opinions or accurate facts, continually making comical your implication that you are somehow educating those less enlightened.

[gtn130]

Yeah, i'm blocking SD20. He totally takes over these threads and makes them unreadable

[stilldropin20]

For those who might somehow (?!) think otherwise, STD doesn't know too much about attorney client privilege. If you hire a lawyer to break the law, the lawyer can legally be compelled to testify regarding the criminal conspiracy. Similarly, a lawyer engaged in covering up a crime can be compelled to testify. Non-disclosure agreements really don't carry much weight in court; they are not a shield against testimony. You get the idea. Consider the case of White House counsel John Dean, to name one example.

well you never hire an attorney to actually break the law. duh. you hire an attorney that communicates to you that they can, in the case of hillary rodham clinton and her campaign, do the "legal opposition research for you." but its "understood" that they will indeed "get the job" done. the client has broken no laws. None. and layers upon layer exist for protection. these groups of people all have dirt on each other. they understand where they are exposed and where they have leverage.

or are you still pretending to yourself that the world is full of good and just people? especially at the highest level of politics.

Obama was still paying fusion gps up until this past year. Almost $1 million in 2017. where i come from, we call that "hush" money. and i understand that no legal lines will have been crossed. because Obama is waaaaaay to smart to not cross all of his T and dot his i's.

Not pretending at all. Your thoughts and writings are just too wildly disorganized to easily discern concise opinions or accurate facts, continually making comical your implication that you are somehow educating those less enlightened.

yeah i get that. i re read my own stuff and i'm like damn bruh the people i want to educate wont be able to connect the dots and im not laughing at them. I'm laughing at myself for doing a really poor job.

at the same time, im not really writing to educate. at least not directly. i'm writing to entertain people that already know everything that im writing about in such a way as to engage them. we need to bounce ideas off of each other. So i'm fishing. waiting for them to bite so we can get to work. so far no one is biting hook line and sinker. just nibbles. people are busy. and dealing with this stuff isn't "fun" per se. but it is becoming more and more necessary.


here's my get's it list: DCkings, Doclinkin. I'm 100% certain they get it. Or enough of it. i'm not certain that they fully appreciate how central banking is tied to it all. and how important it is to understand the role of international central banking into the entire US political system as well as that of the entire world. other posters may get it too and i sure hope so. yet the ideas in their writing doesn't demonstrate that knowledge and understanding of government.

I'm On the fence: monstestewert, Nate33, cammac and many others. i think you guys understand how things really work or most things. but often partisanship enters your argument over logic. and you guys appear only (mostly?) interested in your own propaganda campaigns.

and then we have simple minded partisan hacks. they know who they are. incapable of actual discussion. hopefully they learn something.

[closg00]

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This is classic, classic, classic spy-craft and part of deniability. The lower-end guy is the cut-out/fall guy, both Manafort and Russians know this. This is all leading up to whether or not Mueller will be able to get (or already has the proof) evidence that Jared Kushners
Cambridge Analytica, provided the social media targeting data to the Russians. Mueller needs the proof otherwise someone has deniability. It's also possible that one of the parties will flip on the others.
https://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/jared-kushners-data-operation-increasingly-suspected-of-aiding-2016-russian-propaganda-attack/

propoganda then every single political ad is propoganda. lol

You're also forgetting one major detail. facebook was and still is entirely unregulated. you dont need "russia" to place ads on facebook. you can simply use good old fashioned americans. or set up a shell company in India or China. Or just use bots. all the trump campaign needed was exactly what the hillary campaign used. a legal firefall. where trumps legal team hires another legal team that hires the propaganda team. completely legal and done in broad day light just like the HRC campaign did with fusion gps, steele, and their own russian propagandists.

so why collude with russia? when you can do it yourself? especially since the meat and potatoes is the actual analytics. which Kushner had legally acquired?

none of this makes any sense. like no sense at all. none. it would be like ordering my pizza from russia instead of mom and pop down the street.

Why? Because Trump Jr thought is was a good idea to collude with Russia as did others. Why collude? Because Russia was willing to help the Trump campaign and they did. Why collude? because the Trump campaign did not have in it's possession, the hacked emails at one point, it remains to be seen if they received the hacked emails later, but shortly after the Trump meeting with the Russians (they lied about meeting with any Russians at all initially), the emails were released through Wikileaks.

The fact is that the Russians executed a very sophisticated propaganda effort to help the Trump campaign and it reached millions, what we are all following now is where the trail leads with-respect to Trump/Russian collusion and there is plenty of smoke.

[stilldropin20]

This is classic, classic, classic spy-craft and part of deniability. The lower-end guy is the cut-out/fall guy, both Manafort and Russians know this. This is all leading up to whether or not Mueller will be able to get (or already has the proof) evidence that Jared Kushners
Cambridge Analytica, provided the social media targeting data to the Russians. Mueller needs the proof otherwise someone has deniability. It's also possible that one of the parties will flip on the others.
https://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/jared-kushners-data-operation-increasingly-suspected-of-aiding-2016-russian-propaganda-attack/

propoganda then every single political ad is propoganda. lol

You're also forgetting one major detail. facebook was and still is entirely unregulated. you dont need "russia" to place ads on facebook. you can simply use good old fashioned americans. or set up a shell company in India or China. Or just use bots. all the trump campaign needed was exactly what the hillary campaign used. a legal firefall. where trumps legal team hires another legal team that hires the propaganda team. completely legal and done in broad day light just like the HRC campaign did with fusion gps, steele, and their own russian propagandists.

so why collude with russia? when you can do it yourself? especially since the meat and potatoes is the actual analytics. which Kushner had legally acquired?

none of this makes any sense. like no sense at all. none. it would be like ordering my pizza from russia instead of mom and pop down the street.

Why? Because Trump Jr thought is was a good idea to collude with Russia as did others. Why collude? Because Russia was willing to help the Trump campaign and they did. Why collude? because the Trump campaign did not have in it's possession, the hacked emails at one point, it remains to be seen if they received the hacked emails later, but shortly after the Trump meeting with the Russians (they lied about meeting with any Russians at all initially), the emails were released through Wikileaks.

The fact is that the Russians executed a very sophisticated propaganda effort to help the Trump campaign and it reached millions, what we are all following now is where the trail leads with-respect to Trump/Russian collusion and there is plenty of smoke.

ugh. more small midned partisan bull crap.

I hate to break it to ya but yeah, this aint going nowhere. the only place it will go is pardons and potential impeachment and i think trump will even pardon himself. And congress will only impeach so as to control him. Dems just want to murky the waters so they can win in 2020. and true old fashioned R's like mcconnel fear trump/bannon and the new party they are forming within the conservative constituency.

need i point out that mueller only exists because session recused himself. and now the grounds already exist to fire sessions based on lying to congress. Trump can pardon sessions and fire rosenstein and mueller due to entanglements that both have with HRC and Uranium One that also has far more russian ties than this. they were investigating the deal back then and signed off on it. You may not want to think those dots connect. but they connect as much as the dots you are trying to connect with trump and russia collusion.

trump hires a new attorney general who doesn't recuse himself and this goes nowhere. just like that. which will leave it up to congress to impeach. with no charges against him. which wont happen. this aint going anywhere my friend. maybe papadopoulous does 3 months? maybe carter page does some time? doubt either do much time if at all, tbh.

[CobraCommander]

propoganda then every single political ad is propoganda. lol

You're also forgetting one major detail. facebook was and still is entirely unregulated. you dont need "russia" to place ads on facebook. you can simply use good old fashioned americans. or set up a shell company in India or China. Or just use bots. all the trump campaign needed was exactly what the hillary campaign used. a legal firefall. where trumps legal team hires another legal team that hires the propaganda team. completely legal and done in broad day light just like the HRC campaign did with fusion gps, steele, and their own russian propagandists.

so why collude with russia? when you can do it yourself? especially since the meat and potatoes is the actual analytics. which Kushner had legally acquired?

none of this makes any sense. like no sense at all. none. it would be like ordering my pizza from russia instead of mom and pop down the street.

Why? Because Trump Jr thought is was a good idea to collude with Russia as did others. Why collude? Because Russia was willing to help the Trump campaign and they did. Why collude? because the Trump campaign did not have in it's possession, the hacked emails at one point, it remains to be seen if they received the hacked emails later, but shortly after the Trump meeting with the Russians (they lied about meeting with any Russians at all initially), the emails were released through Wikileaks.

The fact is that the Russians executed a very sophisticated propaganda effort to help the Trump campaign and it reached millions, what we are all following now is where the trail leads with-respect to Trump/Russian collusion and there is plenty of smoke.

ugh. more small midned partisan bull crap.

I hate to break it to ya but yeah, this aint going nowhere. the only place it will go is pardons and potential impeachment and i think trump will even pardon himself. And congress will only impeach so as to control him. Dems just want to murky the waters so they can win in 2020. and true old fashioned R's like mcconnel fear trump/bannon and the new party they are forming within the conservative constituency.

need i point out that mueller only exists because session recused himself. and now the grounds already exist to fire sessions based on lying to congress. Trump can pardon sessions and fire rosenstein and mueller due to entanglements that both have with HRC and Uranium One that also has far more russian ties than this. they were investigating the deal back then and signed off on it. You may not want to think those dots connect. but they connect as much as the dots you are trying to connect with trump and russia collusion.

trump hires a new attorney general who doesn't recuse himself and this goes nowhere. just like that. which will leave it up to congress to impeach. with no charges against him. which wont happen. this aint going anywhere my friend. maybe papadopoulous does 3 months? maybe carter page does some time? doubt either do much time if at all, tbh.

And thats good how? The argument should be...’Trump and his team did nothing unethical thus this is going nowhere’.
‘Not Hillary is worse’ or ‘technically it wasn’t illegal’ ....if it’s all to do about nothing...tell the truth and stop hiding behind lackeys and pardons. It may just be me, but you know, could either party just level with us for once? People are investigating this stuff cause it matters if our president is collaborating with the Russians...the Russians are NOT our Allies- we are the leaders of NATO and they are the leaders of the Warsaw Pact...Putin is still invading countries and oppressing people by miltary might. Russia’s still arming Iran while we call Iran our enemy—but you see no issue with that huh? Come on you just as bad as left wingers...

Next you gonna tell me that more guns would have saved those people in Texas or that god wants us to pay lower taxes or even better that its Christian to not want to give people free stuff like food and health care while ALL Jesus did was feed and heal people.....for FREE...but the Christian Right always complaining about Welfare and Healthcare for those lazy demon-crates

[closg00]

SD20 has no idea how this will end as we don't know what Mueller has and interviews etc are still taking place.

[stilldropin20]

Spoiler:

Why? Because Trump Jr thought is was a good idea to collude with Russia as did others. Why collude? Because Russia was willing to help the Trump campaign and they did. Why collude? because the Trump campaign did not have in it's possession, the hacked emails at one point, it remains to be seen if they received the hacked emails later, but shortly after the Trump meeting with the Russians (they lied about meeting with any Russians at all initially), the emails were released through Wikileaks.

The fact is that the Russians executed a very sophisticated propaganda effort to help the Trump campaign and it reached millions, what we are all following now is where the trail leads with-respect to Trump/Russian collusion and there is plenty of smoke.

ugh. more small midned partisan bull crap.

I hate to break it to ya but yeah, this aint going nowhere. the only place it will go is pardons and potential impeachment and i think trump will even pardon himself. And congress will only impeach so as to control him. Dems just want to murky the waters so they can win in 2020. and true old fashioned R's like mcconnel fear trump/bannon and the new party they are forming within the conservative constituency.

need i point out that mueller only exists because session recused himself. and now the grounds already exist to fire sessions based on lying to congress. Trump can pardon sessions and fire rosenstein and mueller due to entanglements that both have with HRC and Uranium One that also has far more russian ties than this. they were investigating the deal back then and signed off on it. You may not want to think those dots connect. but they connect as much as the dots you are trying to connect with trump and russia collusion.

trump hires a new attorney general who doesn't recuse himself and this goes nowhere. just like that. which will leave it up to congress to impeach. with no charges against him. which wont happen. this aint going anywhere my friend. maybe papadopoulous does 3 months? maybe carter page does some time? doubt either do much time if at all, tbh.

And thats good how? The argument should be...’Trump and his team did nothing unethical thus this is going nowhere’.
‘Not Hillary is worse’ or ‘technically it wasn’t illegal’ ....if it’s all to do about nothing...tell the truth and stop hiding behind lackeys and pardons. It may just be me, but you know, could either party just level with us for once? People are investigating this stuff cause it matters if our president is collaborating with the Russians...the Russians are NOT our Allies- we are the leaders of NATO and they are the leaders of the Warsaw Pact...Putin is still invading countries and oppressing people by miltary might. Russia’s still arming Iran while we call Iran our enemy—but you see no issue with that huh? Come on you just as bad as left wingers...

Next you gonna tell me that more guns would have saved those people in Texas or that god wants us to pay lower taxes or even better that its Christian to not want to give people free stuff like food and health care while ALL Jesus did was feed and heal people.....for FREE...but the Christian Right always complaining about Welfare and Healthcare for those lazy demon-crates

i wish this collusion gate was more interesting for me so i could indulge more with you guys. If i felt real change in politics was the end game, id be more enthusiastic. But i know this will end up a go nowhere investigation and possible trial that waste the tax payers 10-20 Million or more.

the left likes it because it obfuscates the trump admin. trump has been chasing his tail since he was sworn in. i mean i get it. obstruct obstruct obstruct! but the right and bannon will just play the same game or worse to Warren or whoever emerges from the left. Which makes the end game nothing more than the handcuffing of elected officials which is essentially nullifying our elections. more sit on their hands presidents. DC elites like mitch mcconnel will continue to run DC. at least until bannon gets enough people in office.

In terms of ethics? In politics, the only "right and wrong" I acknowledge is that it is wrong that the wealthy elite ruling class continues to enrich themselves on the back of the working class via taxes. and that the "poor" class exists to make the working class feel better about themselves. thats the only wrong i see in the world of politics. everything else? just noise to me. These are not ethical people. None of them. Not federally. and even locally i've "heard about" local contracts issued to their friends and donors left and right. its not really an ethical system, tbh.

In terms of Russia collusion, the left takes no issues with HRC and her campaign strong arming and therefore colluding with the DNC into rigging the primaries nor HRC, the DNC, and her campaign paying for russian dirt on trump. direct line to collusion.

But ethics? Thats a fairy tale in politics. a myth. Just another idea sold to the proletariat. Ethics are something for the "poor to believe in." The elite ruling class that pushes these ideals on the poor and working class through media, religion, books, movies, talking points. That same ruling class lives by no such "ethics." The only ethics they live by is to accumulate wealth and use it to control the narrative. control the media. control the way you think.

i stopped believing in santa claus a long time ago. Jesus too. sad, i know. So I definitely dont believe in trump nor for a second think that this man has any ethical code. But his ego made him run for president. and when he ran, he campaigned on things that are better for the working class. I know he likely doesn't care at all for the working class. But his ego is making him attempt to see his pro-working class agenda through congress. I'd like that to happen. So i support him indirectly by supporting most of the policies he campaigned on.

clearly the left simply doesn't want trump to make good on those campaign pledges. so we get collusion gate. Trump is

[Kanyewest]

It appears to me that Trump is interested in helping himself and people like him who are rich by cutting the estate tax and bringing back money overseas. Trump says he is interested in helping the working class but I'm not sure how eliminating the American care act or like Bernie would say, "cutting taxes to the top 1%" is going to help . He has appointed billionaires, Goldman Sachs executives, and some establishment types. From my perspective, the higher tax cuts advocated by Republicans are helping create the wealth inequality.

But yeah, the Democrats have to point themselves a bit. (DNC, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Clinton being negative on Bernie, inability or unwillingness to change policy to suit some Bernie supporters). That doesn't man that she would have been worse than Trump who seems all about helping those who already have money.

[CobraCommander]

Spoiler:

ugh. more small midned partisan bull crap.

I hate to break it to ya but yeah, this aint going nowhere. the only place it will go is pardons and potential impeachment and i think trump will even pardon himself. And congress will only impeach so as to control him. Dems just want to murky the waters so they can win in 2020. and true old fashioned R's like mcconnel fear trump/bannon and the new party they are forming within the conservative constituency.

need i point out that mueller only exists because session recused himself. and now the grounds already exist to fire sessions based on lying to congress. Trump can pardon sessions and fire rosenstein and mueller due to entanglements that both have with HRC and Uranium One that also has far more russian ties than this. they were investigating the deal back then and signed off on it. You may not want to think those dots connect. but they connect as much as the dots you are trying to connect with trump and russia collusion.

trump hires a new attorney general who doesn't recuse himself and this goes nowhere. just like that. which will leave it up to congress to impeach. with no charges against him. which wont happen. this aint going anywhere my friend. maybe papadopoulous does 3 months? maybe carter page does some time? doubt either do much time if at all, tbh.

And thats good how? The argument should be...’Trump and his team did nothing unethical thus this is going nowhere’.
‘Not Hillary is worse’ or ‘technically it wasn’t illegal’ ....if it’s all to do about nothing...tell the truth and stop hiding behind lackeys and pardons. It may just be me, but you know, could either party just level with us for once? People are investigating this stuff cause it matters if our president is collaborating with the Russians...the Russians are NOT our Allies- we are the leaders of NATO and they are the leaders of the Warsaw Pact...Putin is still invading countries and oppressing people by miltary might. Russia’s still arming Iran while we call Iran our enemy—but you see no issue with that huh? Come on you just as bad as left wingers...

Next you gonna tell me that more guns would have saved those people in Texas or that god wants us to pay lower taxes or even better that its Christian to not want to give people free stuff like food and health care while ALL Jesus did was feed and heal people.....for FREE...but the Christian Right always complaining about Welfare and Healthcare for those lazy demon-crates

i wish this collusion gate was more interesting for me so i could indulge more with you guys. If i felt real change in politics was the end game, id be more enthusiastic. But i know this will end up a go nowhere investigation and possible trial that waste the tax payers 10-20 Million or more.

the left likes it because it obfuscates the trump admin. trump has been chasing his tail since he was sworn in. i mean i get it. obstruct obstruct obstruct! but the right and bannon will just play the same game or worse to Warren or whoever emerges from the left. Which makes the end game nothing more than the handcuffing of elected officials which is essentially nullifying our elections. more sit on their hands presidents. DC elites like mitch mcconnel will continue to run DC. at least until bannon gets enough people in office.

In terms of ethics? In politics, the only "right and wrong" I acknowledge is that it is wrong that the wealthy elite ruling class continues to enrich themselves on the back of the working class via taxes. and that the "poor" class exists to make the working class feel better about themselves. thats the only wrong i see in the world of politics. everything else? just noise to me. These are not ethical people. None of them. Not federally. and even locally i've "heard about" local contracts issued to their friends and donors left and right. its not really an ethical system, tbh.

In terms of Russia collusion, the left takes no issues with HRC and her campaign strong arming and therefore colluding with the DNC into rigging the primaries nor HRC, the DNC, and her campaign paying for russian dirt on trump. direct line to collusion.

But ethics? Thats a fairy tale in politics. a myth. Just another idea sold to the proletariat. Ethics are something for the "poor to believe in." The elite ruling class that pushes these ideals on the poor and working class through media, religion, books, movies, talking points. That same ruling class lives by no such "ethics." The only ethics they live by is to accumulate wealth and use it to control the narrative. control the media. control the way you think.

i stopped believing in santa claus a long time ago. Jesus too. sad, i know. So I definitely dont believe in trump nor for a second think that this man has any ethical code. But his ego made him run for president. and when he ran, he campaigned on things that are better for the working class. I know he likely doesn't care at all for the working class. But his ego is making him attempt to see his pro-working class agenda through congress. I'd like that to happen. So i support him indirectly by supporting most of the policies he campaigned on.

clearly the left simply doesn't want trump to make good on those campaign pledges. so we get collusion gate. Trump is

Ok you are a pragmatist - we have that in common at least.

The difference between us as i can see is that you think Trump and Bannons plans will help the middle class. I actually think some of his plans will hurt the same people that are supporting him. I dont see a difference in Clinton and Trump when it comes to how they went about getting elected- She colluded with the Democratic leaders to trick people into believing that Bernie couldn’t win..and Trump rolled with the Russians...both were bad. But i think the way Trump is governing is insulting the intelligence of all of the americans especially those that can read. For Trump to lead by saying something like the guy in NYC was evil but the guys in Texas and Vegas is/were mentally ill. Trump and his people know that that type of talk drives a wedge between Muslims Americans and the rest of the americans. The same way he knows that saying there were bad people on both sides when the rest of america thinks Charlottesville was Blacks against Nazis/s....and to not call the guy that killed the protestor a terrorist even tho the killer pleaded allegiance to a anti-american group (Nazis and white nationalist) - one that America went to war with in WW2 is despicable. So I’m not willing to sell my soul and support trump for the possible positive changes trump can make for this hypothetical american middle class. Winning or change at any cost isn’t worth it. People that are supporting Trump are putting the hope of economic improvement above civility or decency. You know thats exactly what the Germans did pre-ww2. The Germans didnt universally hate Jews. The Germans needed something and someone to believe in that would improve their economy and make Germany great again and they were willing to trade the German values for it. Most Germans - even soilders- thought Jews were being deported or detained..they didnt universally know about the genocide....yada yada...i know you know all this. I just wonder how you can balance Trumps race baiting, Muslim, Hispanic and Mexican disrespect, open dishonesty about the news, turning back LBGTQ rights...etc. WOW-

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

Read on Twitter

$450K per year is def good money. and not to be a douche. but its only $37K per month pre tax. post tax only about $25K.

a typical person that takes home 25K per month will buy a home 800k and up in my neck of the woods. maybe as much as $2 million.

$1Million home costs about .........12,000 per month.
2 nice cars cost........................2200 per months
health insurannce for a fam of 4...2500 per month.
all other expenses....................3000 per month (with low meals and entertainment)
savings..................................5000 per month (which will be spent on college and vacations, toys, meals n entertainment)

so yeah. its upper middle class. but its middle class. especially if you work in manhattan and dont want to commute. you get a nicer home and cars than other middle class and stay at nicer hotels and eat at nicer restaurants. and get better seats at the concert and games.

In chicago it goes like this:
20K and below. poor. nearly broke all time watch every dime, room mate, cheap beer, you better be a model, artist or like ugly chicks.
40K big time life change from 20k. still "feel" poor. decent but still cheap apt or cheap house or cheap condo. cheap car. still better like unfly chicks or have a big personality. but you can pay your billz and your ego remains small. take a girl out every now and then
70K life changes, much nicer apt, nice car, nice condo. nothing outlandish but your dick just grew an inch. balls got a little bigger. especially if you were once a broke ass. will need to find new friends cuz you cant afford to pay for your buddies but you can now get in the nicer clubs. can date a few women at same time and dine out, grub hub, have some fun.
120K life changes. still buying a 2 bed condo or small house in burbs but both can be appointed as if you have a lot more money. and also now afford a 100k car. dine out at expensive rests. often. nice vacations. mutiple trips to vegas and miami per year. throw some singles around at the strip club. if smart, can begin buying rental income properties and building a 401K
170-200k life changes again. just barely entering what most people refer to as "baller" life style. super high end 2 br condo or super high end luxury rental. or really nice/large/ high end home in burbs. 100k cars. 5k vaca regularly. rental income/401K

from here life doest really change until around 400K. someone who makes 400K is either really smart, or manages money really well or is really talented. or has rare skills and knows how to leverage those skills. people like this often own their own small businesses, legal, doctor, etc. or manage wealth. So this group, around which begins around 170K knows how to accumulate wealth and grow wealth. This group is in the know. they're friends and clients are in the know. They get educated on everything that affects them and they understand quickly that everything affects. They know where to speculate their wealth as well as how to develop their businesses and their speculations.

So even though this is still (upper) middle class. they usually become lower upper class quickly. For example, if I took on a real estate client that is 27 years old. doesn't come from wealth. no cash. just out of dental school. gets his first job making $450K per year. and he listens to me. he will be worth no less than $20 Million in 10-15 years. which makes up lower upper class. but for his first year out of school he is still upper middle class and will be forever he he blows all of his money on non wealth building strategies.

This was a great read. Thanks STD.

Tremendous ethnography.

I never had thought of it that way before and clearly neither had the biased, data-driven economists.

[dckingsfan]

I'm well aware of who russia is and isn't. And I can assure you that Russia and Putin are not the foe the media makes them out to be.

No - they are worse. They will collude with any power to remove democracy.

Evil - flat out.

[Ruzious]

I'm well aware of who russia is and isn't. And I can assure you that Russia and Putin are not the foe the media makes them out to be.

No - they are worse. They will collude with any power to remove democracy.

Evil - flat out.

C'mon, SD was Navy. Special Ops - some 25 years ago. That makes him an expert on Putin. And all those Russian oligarchs that he controls - sweethearts that wouldn't hurt a fly and want what's best for everyone. And he's a dentist/realtor, which makes him uniquely qualified to define $450,000 income per year as middle class. He's as wise as a LuvABull is hot.

[I_Like_Dirt]

And they don't even understand their base - from polling, Rs believe that deficit reduction is more important than tax cuts for the wealthy - by a 3 to 1 ratio. Out of touch with their base.

I think they understand their base all too well. Their actions have spoken louder than words for some time now. They're well aware that their base is going to vote for them regardless of tax cuts, because their base isn't actually against tax cuts, either, even if they prioritize cutting the deficit. Sure, their base might not get exactly what they want, but unless their loyalty is ever in doubt, there is no reason to ever listen to them. On the flipside, wealthy donors change their loyalties all the time if circumstances demand it.

[gtn130]

It appears to me that Trump is interested in helping himself and people like him who are rich by cutting the estate tax and bringing back money overseas. Trump says he is interested in helping the working class but I'm not sure how eliminating the American care act or like Bernie would say, "cutting taxes to the top 1%" is going to help . He has appointed billionaires, Goldman Sachs executives, and some establishment types. From my perspective, the higher tax cuts advocated by Republicans are helping create the wealth inequality.

I'm sure you are aware, but it's worth noting that this is just as much GOP dogma as it is fraudulent Trumpian populism. Reaganomics is an outright scam, and the entire concept of slashing taxes for the wealthy because they're the deified job creators comes from a place that is dishonest at best.

Tangentially related: Reagan era Wealthy White Businessman idolatry is one of that most insidious things in our society.

[gtn130]

And they don't even understand their base - from polling, Rs believe that deficit reduction is more important than tax cuts for the wealthy - by a 3 to 1 ratio. Out of touch with their base.

I think they understand their base all too well. Their actions have spoken louder than words for some time now. They're well aware that their base is going to vote for them regardless of tax cuts, because their base isn't actually against tax cuts, either, even if they prioritize cutting the deficit. Sure, their base might not get exactly what they want, but unless their loyalty is ever in doubt, there is no reason to ever listen to them. On the flipside, wealthy donors change their loyalties all the time if circumstances demand it.

Their base is about identity politics. Look at what Ed Gillespie is running on:

-Kneeling during the anthem is very bad
-MS13 is our foremost problem as a society
-Immigrants are basically MS13 and/or ISIS
-Something something SANCTUARY CITIES

Not much mention of deficit spending or tax cuts!