Game 9: Clippers (5-3) Host Heat (3-5) @ 12:30! 11/5/17

[esqtvd]

the anti-Austin vultures descend when he goes 4-12
Beverly goes 2-11
Gallo was 1-5 before he left the game at -5 after only 13 minutes played

but Austin lost the game



looks like this game thread is coming to its demise

heh heh

[clip set]

This team isn't really running any sets on offense. I know people brushed off all the ISOs a little because we won the first few games, but you can't have the majority of your possessions be four guys swinging the ball on the 3 point line pump faking 3 times each with no one cutting or any back picks or anything. The ball movement is a facade. Blake backing someone down from 28 feet out isn't a good place to be with 8 seconds left on the shot clock. Even the high PnR we run, it's like the roll man is completely lethargic. No one's cutting hard to the rim and Blake doesn't really even pop off it anymore. This team needs some practice time to get sorted.

The defense was pretty undisciplined this game too, with way too many possession of guys collapsing into the paint and leaving everyone wide open on the wings - especially Tyler Johnson.

[wco81]

you are the only person I have ever seen with more and1s than the post count.

despite of it all, you must be doing something right.

He probably got most of those from **** on KD and the Warriors on the General Board.

[wco81]

This team isn't really running any sets on offense. I know people brushed off all the ISOs a little because we won the first few games, but you can't have the majority of your possessions be four guys swinging the ball on the 3 point line pump faking 3 times each with no one cutting or any back picks or anything. The ball movement is a facade. Blake backing someone down from 28 feet out isn't a good place to be with 8 seconds left on the shot clock. Even the high PnR we run, it's like the roll man is completely lethargic. No one's cutting hard to the rim and Blake doesn't really even pop off it anymore. This team needs some practice time to get sorted.

The defense was pretty undisciplined this game too, with way too many possession of guys collapsing into the paint and leaving everyone wide open on the wings - especially Tyler Johnson.

Brent Barry said the ISOs are not sustainable offense.

But that could also apply to the OKC Thunder this year.

[esqtvd]

My guess is Doc's letting the players fail THEIR way and then they will be more amenable to more structure. But it's logical to let them gravitate to what they like best first and impose a structure on that, rather than impose a structure first and force players to tailor their games to it like they do in college.

This is a brand new team still with only 2 starters returning and that's only if you count DJ, who's not really in the offense. CP didn't leave a structure behind like the Spurs have year to year. The only one who can run Chris's offense is Chris [and maybe Milos].

There is also the problem that although we knew Austin's not really a PG, and although Pat Bev's better at the point, he's not a PG either, as we hoped his 4 apg last year promised. Neither of them are particularly bad: Pat's at 43%/45% and as a starter, Austin's at 42%/47%. But the chemistry's not there. Also, Gallo was supposed to take up some of the playmaking slack but he's scuffling badly at the moment [36%/26%] and now he's dinged up and going to miss some games.

"I can barely walk," Gallinari told the Los Angeles Times. "I've been having pain the past two or three games, and now it's getting to a point where I'm having problems walking, so I've got to take care of it."

http://www.espn.com/blog/nba/rumors/post/_/id/45912/rumor-central-danilo-gallinari-to-sit-a-few-games

[og15]

This team isn't really running any sets on offense. I know people brushed off all the ISOs a little because we won the first few games, but you can't have the majority of your possessions be four guys swinging the ball on the 3 point line pump faking 3 times each with no one cutting or any back picks or anything. The ball movement is a facade. Blake backing someone down from 28 feet out isn't a good place to be with 8 seconds left on the shot clock. Even the high PnR we run, it's like the roll man is completely lethargic. No one's cutting hard to the rim and Blake doesn't really even pop off it anymore. This team needs some practice time to get sorted.

The defense was pretty undisciplined this game too, with way too many possession of guys collapsing into the paint and leaving everyone wide open on the wings - especially Tyler Johnson.

Brent Barry said the ISOs are not sustainable offense.

But that could also apply to the OKC Thunder this year.

Iso offense worked for the Westbrook/Durant Thunder teams in terms of being a top regular season offense, but having Westbrook/Durant allows you to have a functional iso offense. So far our ball movement has regressed from previous seasons. We actually hadn't done a ton of the backing down Blake for most of the shot clock offense since back in the VDN days.

[og15]

My guess is Doc's letting the players fail THEIR way and then they will be more amenable to more structure. But it's logical to let them gravitate to what they like best first and impose a structure on that, rather than impose a structure first and force players to tailor their games to it like they do in college.

This is a brand new team still with only 2 starters returning and that's only if you count DJ, who's not really in the offense. CP didn't leave a structure behind like the Spurs have year to year. The only one who can run Chris's offense is Chris [and maybe Milos].

There is also the problem that although we knew Austin's not really a PG, and although Pat Bev's better at the point, he's not a PG either, as we hoped his 4 apg last year promised. Neither of them are particularly bad: Pat's at 43%/45% and as a starter, Austin's at 42%/47%. But the chemistry's not there. Also, Gallo was supposed to take up some of the playmaking slack but he's scuffling badly at the moment [36%/26%] and now he's dinged up and going to miss some games.

"I can barely walk," Gallinari told the Los Angeles Times. "I've been having pain the past two or three games, and now it's getting to a point where I'm having problems walking, so I've got to take care of it."

http://www.espn.com/blog/nba/rumors/post/_/id/45912/rumor-central-danilo-gallinari-to-sit-a-few-games

You're very apologetic for the coaching staff, but if we have to be consistently apologetic about similar things, well, where there's smoke, there's fire. Hopefully, things change, but Doc does have to look in the mirror. You're saying it is the "CP3 offense", but now it just looks like we're doing the "Blake offense", a coach has to take responsibility there because he's the one who made all the promises. We didn't say it, he's the one who went out of his way to say that he "had" to use CP the way he did, and now he would have a more ball movement offense, more pace, more flow. So it's kind of backtracking to now start saying that Doc wants them to do their own thing and fail to make them more amenable to structure. It just seems like an excuse for every outcome. If it was the actual plan, then Doc would and could have said that. He could have said something simple like "we're trying to figure out how the players fit, so we're going to let them run their own thing on offense and figure it out from there". Instead, he said they will have a more ball movement offense, and that this is what he had always run.

I'll give it time, but I don't buy this explanation as it doesn't fit into what they have actually been saying previously. It's a very after the fact convenient explanation. So what if the iso offense worked well and kept working, so Doc would just leave it? You get comfortable, "well it works", and then down the line, when you see there are issues with it against better defenses, etc, then you have to break habits and make players re-learn and it is a longer process. Doesn't make sense, neither does it make sense that Doc is for some reason trying to set up his players to fail in their own method as if they don't want to listen to him. If they don't want to listen to him, then he needs to go.

With such a new group, and with a ton of home games giving more practice time, you want to instill the principles early. You give freedom, but there need to be principles, we need to be making a certain amount of passes, we should avoid more than this many dribbles, we shouldn't hold the ball more than this long without doing something. You don't want players to start doing something one way, then now go back and start trying to change it. This isn't about having a rigid structure like college, but it is about having principles of how you play. You're telling me that the coaches wanted to waste this home stretch with easier teams and go on the road with iso ball and come back and start to change the way the team plays after game 20?

Maybe it is Doc, maybe it is the players not listening to what he is saying, I don't know, but either way, it is an issue, and I don't buy the explanation here, it's way too conveniently alleviating blame from the coaching and it contradicts previous things that have been said.

[wco81]

This team isn't really running any sets on offense. I know people brushed off all the ISOs a little because we won the first few games, but you can't have the majority of your possessions be four guys swinging the ball on the 3 point line pump faking 3 times each with no one cutting or any back picks or anything. The ball movement is a facade. Blake backing someone down from 28 feet out isn't a good place to be with 8 seconds left on the shot clock. Even the high PnR we run, it's like the roll man is completely lethargic. No one's cutting hard to the rim and Blake doesn't really even pop off it anymore. This team needs some practice time to get sorted.

The defense was pretty undisciplined this game too, with way too many possession of guys collapsing into the paint and leaving everyone wide open on the wings - especially Tyler Johnson.

Brent Barry said the ISOs are not sustainable offense.

But that could also apply to the OKC Thunder this year.

Iso offense worked for the Westbrook/Durant Thunder teams in terms of being a top regular season offense, but having Westbrook/Durant allows you to have a functional iso offense. So far our ball movement has regressed from previous seasons. We actually hadn't done a ton of the backing down Blake for most of the shot clock offense since back in the VDN days.

Actually I saw Blake do that a couple of times in the Warriors game where I noticed it was taking at least 7 seconds for him to get into the paint before he either attempted a shot or passed it out.

With his 3-point shooting this year, I wonder if he couldn't just blow by some defenders, even smaller ones, with the ball fake, at least some of the time, rather than immediately trying to back them down.

Later in his career, it might be all he has but he still seems to have athleticism to try to mix it up, as far as trying to get to the rim.

[esqtvd]

You're very apologetic for the coaching staff, but if we have to be consistently apologetic about similar things, well, where there's smoke, there's fire. Hopefully, things change, but Doc does have to look in the mirror. You're saying it is the "CP3 offense", but now it just looks like we're doing the "Blake offense", a coach has to take responsibility there because he's the one who made all the promises. We didn't say it, he's the one who went out of his way to say that he "had" to use CP the way he did, and now he would have a more ball movement offense, more pace, more flow. So it's kind of backtracking to now start saying that Doc wants them to do their own thing and fail to make them more amenable to structure. It just seems like an excuse for every outcome. If it was the actual plan, then Doc would and could have said that. He could have said something simple like "we're trying to figure out how the players fit, so we're going to let them run their own thing on offense and figure it out from there". Instead, he said they will have a more ball movement offense, and that this is what he had always run.

I'll give it time, but I don't but this explanation as it doesn't fit into what they have actually been saying previously. It's a very after the fact convenient explanation.

I don't expect a coach to tell the papers everything. I see what they're doing and look for an explanation besides they're stupid and I'm brilliant.

It's a new team. You have to see what they're good at, then you figure out what works for their skills. And today's pros are not going to be bossed around like college kids, they're just not.

We also need to try combinations of the Dekkers and Trezzes yet but first you have to figure out the core. There have been a lot of turnovers that won't be happening in a few months as they get familiar with each other.

I don't defend Doc as much as get repulsed by infantile criticisms. The CP era was its own thing and Chris had the ball. Tell him what to do with it and you have a war on your hands. I don't know if Doc's a good coach in the 21st century or not but I look for the most reasonable explanation for why he's doing what he's doing and usually I'm borne out later.

And the real possibility exists that I'm 100% right about his thinking and he's still a crappy coach. But we're shooting 3s and attacking the rim, just like everybody says we should. Problem is that the damn ball's not going in. Frankly, my observation so far is besides the turnovers, we're getting out-athleticked, and there's no easy fix for that.

[wco81]

My guess is Doc's letting the players fail THEIR way and then they will be more amenable to more structure. But it's logical to let them gravitate to what they like best first and impose a structure on that, rather than impose a structure first and force players to tailor their games to it like they do in college.

It is a big ask to get all-star players who've attained stardom with their one on one moves to try to fit into a passing/motion system.

Curry still struggled with it as recently as the middle of last season, where he only go like 12 shot attempts at Cleveland, a close loss.

Curry said after the game that they have to find the right balance between playing the "right way" versus going to the individual "flair" plays, his ability to create shots off the dribble, which had made him into a star.

The frustrating part was that when he worked off the ball, he was getting beaten up trying to move through screens, so at times, he stopped moving without the ball. But over the rest of the season and playoffs, they found the right balance.

Now, they mainly run ISO plays for Curry at the end of quarters, when he's holding on or dribbling the ball until it's time to get the last shot.

[og15]

I don't even think Doc is a "crappy coach", but I think he needs to be separated from Austin, and I'm not even one of those who hates on Austin. I think he did a lot of great for this team when he came in, and I think he's shot himself in the foot with his comments before because he set an expectation. The Clippers actually had very good offense and flow etc for the talent they had, but him going back and saying Paul was essentially holding him back from what he really wanted to do puts an even bigger target on his back and greater expectation. The 13-14 and 14-15 Clippers were a top 2-5 team in passes made and secondary assists and were the league's best offense. They had larger injury issues the past two seasons, but last season they were not even that bad. They had very good ball movement despite being a two-man initiated offense, especially when you compare to teams like OKC and the Raptors, other two man only initiated offenses. If Doc is downplaying that and saying "oh that was CP3, and this new thing will be me", well then he's the one that set the expectation for SA like ball movement, so there's no backtracking now.

I understand looking for a reasonable explanation, and that is fine, but the more convoluted an explanation becomes, the less likely it is. If the explanation is that Doc is playing mind games with his new team like he's trying to be some Zen Master, then I don't know about that, especially since he's already said things that disprove that. Is he playing mind games with us too?

A coaches job, especially with most of these guys being established NBA players is to watch film, know where they are comfortable, know what they like to do, and be prepared, then you adjust as you go. I find it hard to believe that Doc didn't do this and doesn't know how he would want to integrate his players together. The problem here is that even if what you are saying was true, it isn't good. If Doc as the head coach came into the season with the plan of "let them figure it out first", then he failed.

This also is hard to accept because when Doc came to the Clippers in 13-14 with a new team, with a lot of new additions, he totally revamped things. The CP you said does his own thing was doing the things Doc wanted him to do. The pace got faster, CP ran a lot of similar actions, but he used misdirection, off-ball action, etc to set those things up. So Doc was able to come in and do it then, but then now he's going to let the players first figure it out, then come in 20 games later to revamp the offense? Yikes!

[clip set]

It's a new team. You have to see what they're good at, then you figure out what works for their skills.

We also need to try combinations of the Dekkers and Trezzes yet but first you have to figure out the core. There have been a lot of turnovers that won't be happening in a few months as they get familiar with each other.

I don't defend Doc as much as get repulsed by infantile criticisms. The CP era was its own thing and Chris had the ball. Tell him what to do with it and you have a war on your hands. I don't know if Doc's a good coach in the 21st century or not but I look for the most reasonable explanation for why he's doing what he's doing and usually I'm borne out later.

And the real possibility exists that I'm 100% right about his thinking and he's still a crappy coach. But we're shooting 3s and attacking the rim, just like everybody says we should. Problem is that the damn ball's not going in. Frankly, my observation so far is besides the turnovers, we're getting out-athleticked, and there's no easy fix for that.

I don't see how you can call observations infantile, while just conjecturing that Doc is probably letting the team free wheel for a while despite having an ultimate plan to implement structure after he sees how well the players randomly play together for a couple months. Frankly one of my biggest gripes over the last few years was that there was no strategic implementation with the bench, so this isn't some new phenomenon. This is the ideal time to instill any sort of rhythm with the sets that the team runs, considering he has a largely blank slate. The bill of goods Doc wants to sell is that the Clippers are now finally alleviated of the evils of CP3 and his resistance to coaching. If that's the case, it should align with his supposed desire to really get his hands dirty and coach the team, and we shouldn't be reverting even further into what's effectively random offense.

You can call the CP3 PnR / Reddick pin down / floppy / motion sets a gimmick, but it was a structured offense that produced consistent results when we stuck to it. Is it going to be exactly the same now? Of course not. Should we at least be making an effort to run anyone / anything off ball? I would think so.

[esqtvd]

It's a new team. You have to see what they're good at, then you figure out what works for their skills.

We also need to try combinations of the Dekkers and Trezzes yet but first you have to figure out the core. There have been a lot of turnovers that won't be happening in a few months as they get familiar with each other.

I don't defend Doc as much as get repulsed by infantile criticisms. The CP era was its own thing and Chris had the ball. Tell him what to do with it and you have a war on your hands. I don't know if Doc's a good coach in the 21st century or not but I look for the most reasonable explanation for why he's doing what he's doing and usually I'm borne out later.

And the real possibility exists that I'm 100% right about his thinking and he's still a crappy coach. But we're shooting 3s and attacking the rim, just like everybody says we should. Problem is that the damn ball's not going in. Frankly, my observation so far is besides the turnovers, we're getting out-athleticked, and there's no easy fix for that.

I don't see how you can call observations infantile, while just conjecturing that Doc is probably letting the team free wheel for a while despite having an ultimate plan to implement structure after he sees how well the players randomly play together for a couple months. Frankly one of my biggest gripes over the last few years was that there was no strategic implementation with the bench, so this isn't some new phenomenon. This is the ideal time to instill any sort of rhythm with the sets that the team runs, considering he has a largely blank slate. The bill of goods Doc wants to sell is that the Clippers are now finally alleviated of the evils of CP3 and his resistance to coaching. If that's the case, it should align with his supposed desire to really get his hands dirty and coach the team, and we shouldn't be reverting even further into what's effectively random offense.

You can call the CP3 PnR / Reddick pin down / floppy / motion sets a gimmick, but it was a structured offense that produced consistent results when we stuck to it. Is it going to be exactly the same now? Of course not. Should we at least be making an effort to run anyone / anything off ball? I would think so.

Well, my reference to "infantile"--and there are many infantile attacks on Doc--is the meme that because the result was unsatisfactory, it was because Doc screwed up. But the very real possibility exists that no other strategy would have done better.

One could say he should have been fired as GM and/or coach but the very real possibility exists that nobody else could have got Luc, Speights and Felton to come and play for next to nothing and without them we'd have been worse.

One could say Doc should have coached better but the very real possibility exists that it was impossible with CP3 going dribbledribbledribble and dictating the offense for 32 mpg, and 36-38 mpg in the playoffs. And I think we both admit that the CP3-imposed offense worked, and Doc built around it--making an NBA starter out of JJ, promoting Tatty Matty Barnes from VDN's second unit and the eventually dumpster diving for and plugging in Luc.

This is the ideal time to instill any sort of rhythm with the sets that the team runs, considering he has a largely blank slate. The bill of goods Doc wants to sell is that the Clippers are now finally alleviated of the evils of CP3 and his resistance to coaching. If that's the case, it should align with his supposed desire to really get his hands dirty and coach the team, and we shouldn't be reverting even further into what's effectively random offense.

We're not fighting, or even debating. I don't disagree with a word except I'm proposing that Doc decided not to come in with the whip and the iron hand from Day One in camp. Maybe that was a mistake; maybe it's the right way to coach in the 21st century, on this team in particular. Let Blake find himself first--who after 5 years of Chris has to rediscover himself as alpha dog--then figure out how to structure the Xs and Os and personnel around him.

Indeed, the master strategy [as opposed to tactics] is different from the CP3 era. Instead of fighting for homecourt advantage, we need to get a plan by the end of the season and make some noise as a 5-8 seed. But OTOH, there is the great risk of losing our winning culture, which frankly Chris, not Doc, created. You just can't play the first 2 months of the season like preseason and end up 10 games out of the last playoff spot. So that means playing the starters too many minutes [AGAIN!, a legit complaint] in hopes of banking some Ws.


I don't know what's going to happen next. I don't know who should be getting minutes. I love Trezz, but God he's raw and not too skilled. Dekker might be the opposite, skilled but too dainty. Brice is a dog. Sindarius is getting some minutes at the 3, but he's way too small to be a real NBA 3. And now Gallo's out, and we're not even going to make the playoffs unless our 20 Million Dollar Man starts looking like a near-All-Star.

Plus we have our only All-Star putting up numbers but taking 15 seconds of every possession trying to back his man down in the post and if he can't, he kicks the ball back out for a mad 9-second scramble to get a decent shot off. Or any shot off.

That's all observation too, but making Doc [or anybody] the bad guy, the black hat, is what I mean by infantile. I grew to love Jamal as a person but never liked his game but eventually realized--observed--that he did what the team needed. The bench was a gathering of NBA rejects because CP, BG, and DJ ate up all the money. It wasn't that they were uncoachable, it was that no coach is brilliant enough to do anything with such a mess.

Or let me rephrase: It's a very real possibility that no other coach could have done any more with that mess, year after year. Defense counsel does not argue that Doc is innocent, only that there is reasonable doubt about his guilt.

[esqtvd]

I don't even think Doc is a "crappy coach", but I think he needs to be separated from Austin, and I'm not even one of those who hates on Austin. I think he did a lot of great for this team when he came in, and I think he's shot himself in the foot with his comments before because he set an expectation. The Clippers actually had very good offense and flow etc for the talent they had, but him going back and saying Paul was essentially holding him back from what he really wanted to do puts an even bigger target on his back and greater expectation. The 13-14 and 14-15 Clippers were a top 2-5 team in passes made and secondary assists and were the league's best offense. They had larger injury issues the past two seasons, but last season they were not even that bad. They had very good ball movement despite being a two-man initiated offense, especially when you compare to teams like OKC and the Raptors, other two man only initiated offenses. If Doc is downplaying that and saying "oh that was CP3, and this new thing will be me", well then he's the one that set the expectation for SA like ball movement, so there's no backtracking now.

I understand looking for a reasonable explanation, and that is fine, but the more convoluted an explanation becomes, the less likely it is. If the explanation is that Doc is playing mind games with his new team like he's trying to be some Zen Master, then I don't know about that, especially since he's already said things that disprove that. Is he playing mind games with us too?

A coaches job, especially with most of these guys being established NBA players is to watch film, know where they are comfortable, know what they like to do, and be prepared, then you adjust as you go. I find it hard to believe that Doc didn't do this and doesn't know how he would want to integrate his players together. The problem here is that even if what you are saying was true, it isn't good. If Doc as the head coach came into the season with the plan of "let them figure it out first", then he failed.

This also is hard to accept because when Doc came to the Clippers in 13-14 with a new team, with a lot of new additions, he totally revamped things. The CP you said does his own thing was doing the things Doc wanted him to do. The pace got faster, CP ran a lot of similar actions, but he used misdirection, off-ball action, etc to set those things up. So Doc was able to come in and do it then, but then now he's going to let the players first figure it out, then come in 20 games later to revamp the offense? Yikes!

Well, more or less in order, I did not know Austin mouthed off and d-bagged Chris Paul. I don't doubt you, but please send a link.

I appreciate you not hating on him [sincerely] but Austin remains the least of our problems, as a starter shooting 42% and 47% from 3-point range. But the real problem I see is he's simply not a complement to Pat Bev, whom I like better. But mebbe they'll work it out.

As for CP when Doc got here, of course he was on best behavior. He just got Vinnie fired and we can be reasonably sure he gave his quiet approval to Glenn "Doc" Rivers. But here in 2017-18, Doc has no Hall of Fame PG to implement a plan.

[FTR, the '13-'14 team had as many new guys as this year's edition. The Tribe Called Bench scattered to the winds. Odom in particular never played again.]

Is Doc playing mind games with this new crew? I'm not saying that. He gave them a long leash is all, particularly Blake, who needs to become THE leader and enter the NBA elite as a 25 ppg scorer as well, neither of which he has ever done.

I don't disagree with this

A coaches job, especially with most of these guys being established NBA players is to watch film, know where they are comfortable, know what they like to do, and be prepared, then you adjust as you go. I find it hard to believe that Doc didn't do this and doesn't know how he would want to integrate his players together.

but I do disagree with it. We have 4 players--who represent half of our top 8 or 10--coming from a Mike D'Antoni team. Mike D'Antoni teams thrive on chaos. In Lou Williams you know what you're getting and he's plugged into Jamal's role well or even better.

Pat Beverley did a lot of talk about rising to the next level, but he is 29 years old. He's been somewhat better than his career stats per 36 minutes. He's by no means a disappointment but he's still who he is.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/beverpa01.html#per_minute::none

Plus he's only 6' and not a true point guard. Allen Iverson was the only 2-guard that small and though I'm a big fan of Mr. 94 Feet, Bev ain't The Answer.

As for Dekker and Trezz, see above. I like them too but what, we're going to trot out 4 of D'Antoni's rejects and call it a bench? A second unit?

Geez, I'm usually a Pollyanna for the Clips and still am, but it doesn't mean I don't observe too. Fire Doc? None of this has to do with Doc.

[og15]

Doc's comments on CP, not Austin, and I guess we'll see, hopefully, they smoothen things out, but that's why sometimes the less talking you do, the better, let the play speak for itself.

[MartinToVaught]

Sorry, not buying into the idea that Doc is intentionally letting the team play selfish one-on-one ball as a "mind game." This is just how he "coaches." He's lazy and completely out of touch with the modern NBA. The only time we've ever had anything resembling an offensive system in the Doc era was when Gentry was here. When Gentry left, we regressed back to the old stagnant iso-heroball that got VDN fired.

All the ball movement Doc promised disappeared as soon as Milos got hurt. To me, that indicates that the ball movement we saw in preseason and early on in the season was all because of Milos, not any coaching by Doc.

[esqtvd]

you are the only person I have ever seen with more and1s than the post count.

despite of it all, you must be doing something right.

He probably got most of those from **** on KD and the Warriors on the General Board.

LOL. So that's the secret of internet success! Sounds about right--D-bagging Doc around here is usually good for a couple clicks.