10 Game Report

[Knightro]

For now the Magic really should just put out Payton/Fournier/Simmons/Gordon/Vučević and see what happens.

Tiny sample size, but it's been ugly.

Payton-Simmons-Fournier-Gordon-Vucevic is a -24.8 in 10 minutes.

I know Ross has been miserable offensively, but it hasn't negatively affected starting lineups whatsoever with Payton or Augustin running point. So I'd stick with it until that changes.

If you move Ross to the bench and he DOESN'T snap out of this funk, then you're looking at Mack-Ross-Hezonja-Isaac-Biyombo second units until Augustin is healthy and that second team will get absolutely destroyed every single night.

This team has two players, when healthy, that can effectively attack in isolation/pick and roll as the primary ball handler - Payton and Simmons.

To me, it seems wise to always have one of them on the floor at all times.

[Xatticus]

Well i absolutely disagree he has no handle. I actually think his handle has been pretty good. For comparisons sake, i see it as being FAR supreior already to the handle of Mario or even someone like Moe Harkless. Im not sure why some think he has no handle at all.

This is complete bias imo. I watched so far pretty much every single min of Magic 2017-18 season and i can't recall one play where he took somebody off dribble and attacked. It's always dribble pull up mid range ( 40% of all his FGA are mid range ) ,spot up 3 (28% of all FGA 3s) or transition/garbage points from rebounds. In general he only scores 6 points a game , given that he made only 4 threes so far.

I went to NBA.com to pick up some fact/stats

Isaac scored 0 points in situations where he had 7 or more dribbles
He scored once when he had 3 to 6 dribbles (1-3)
He is 3-8 FG ( for 2 only ) when he takes 2 dribbles
He is 4-10 FG from situations where he takes 1 dribble
He is 13-23 FG in situations from 0 dribbles

So, as my eye test told me, he has no handles. Probably because he is too tall and too skinny so others can push him and pick his pocket. But that's not big problem to me ( mostly because i belive he is future PF-C more than SF )

Great stats here.

Don't get me wrong here Shadrock, I *love* what I've seen from Isaac so far. I think he's going to be a guy who contributes to winning basketball even if literally the only he does is become great at the things he's already good at (defense, rebounding, spot shooting).

A 3&D player who also rebounds at a high level is a very unique skill set.

But when over 70% of the kid's field goal attempts in his first 10 games have come with 0 or 1 dribbles, it's an obvious sign that he either A. isn't comfortable putting the ball on the floor, B. not capable of getting around people with the dribble or C. a combination of both.

Again, this isn't a knock. It's simply an observation. Isaac is SO young and so good at other things that it isn't really a cause for concern.

He doesn't have functional handles at the moment, but that's not the same as saying he isn't technically capable. We have certainly seen flashes of this. He can rebound and go in the same way that Gordon does, which we saw from him in college. He can use his dribble to beat his man off the dribble, which we saw on his drive against Kyle Anderson.

Those stats are a bit misleading. He never pounds the ball. That's a good thing. He doesn't have an array of moves, but the foundation is there and it is definitely a part of his game that I would develop.

[drsd]

For now the Magic really should just put out Payton/Fournier/Simmons/Gordon/Vučević and see what happens.

Tiny sample size, but it's been ugly.

Payton-Simmons-Fournier-Gordon-Vucevic is a -24.8 in 10 minutes.

I accept your maths, but I want to see those five start. That has not yet occurred.



..

[shadrock]

This is complete bias imo. I watched so far pretty much every single min of Magic 2017-18 season and i can't recall one play where he took somebody off dribble and attacked. It's always dribble pull up mid range ( 40% of all his FGA are mid range ) ,spot up 3 (28% of all FGA 3s) or transition/garbage points from rebounds. In general he only scores 6 points a game , given that he made only 4 threes so far.

I went to NBA.com to pick up some fact/stats

Isaac scored 0 points in situations where he had 7 or more dribbles
He scored once when he had 3 to 6 dribbles (1-3)
He is 3-8 FG ( for 2 only ) when he takes 2 dribbles
He is 4-10 FG from situations where he takes 1 dribble
He is 13-23 FG in situations from 0 dribbles

So, as my eye test told me, he has no handles. Probably because he is too tall and too skinny so others can push him and pick his pocket. But that's not big problem to me ( mostly because i belive he is future PF-C more than SF )

Great stats here.

Don't get me wrong here Shadrock, I *love* what I've seen from Isaac so far. I think he's going to be a guy who contributes to winning basketball even if literally the only he does is become great at the things he's already good at (defense, rebounding, spot shooting).

A 3&D player who also rebounds at a high level is a very unique skill set.

But when over 70% of the kid's field goal attempts in his first 10 games have come with 0 or 1 dribbles, it's an obvious sign that he either A. isn't comfortable putting the ball on the floor, B. not capable of getting around people with the dribble or C. a combination of both.

Again, this isn't a knock. It's simply an observation. Isaac is SO young and so good at other things that it isn't really a cause for concern.

He doesn't have functional handles at the moment, but that's not the same as saying he isn't technically capable. We have certainly seen flashes of this. He can rebound and go in the same way that Gordon does, which we saw from him in college. He can use his dribble to beat his man off the dribble, which we saw on his drive against Kyle Anderson.

Those stats are a bit misleading. He never pounds the ball. That's a good thing. He doesn't have an array of moves, but the foundation is there and it is definitely a part of his game that I would develop.

Yeah i would say these stats are more an indication that he is playing within the team rules and not trying to force things or do too much. Ive seen flashes of his handle over time, even in preseason, that made me believe that side of things was not an issue.

[Flannerz]

I dont agree Isaac has a long way to go offensively. Hes already very capable on that end. Great shooter. Good lob target. Can hit a jumper off the dribble. Even as he is now he is a valuable piece simply as a floor spacer.

Well first of all, you didn't address his complete lack of handle, which was my biggest point in saying Isaac has a long way to go offensively.

Second, Isaac is not a great shooter yet. His FT stroke is very encouraging, but he's only shooting 31% from three and 28% from 16-23 feet.

The real problem for Isaac right now is shot selection. Since his handle is so weak, he takes a TON of 16-23 foot jumpers, a lot of them off the dribble. Right now, 28% of shots are long twos which is overwhelmingly the worst shot in all of basketball efficiency wise.

Much like Gordon, Isaac's long-term ceiling as an offensive player really rests on his ability to improve his handle. I'm very confident he'll improve his jumper over time.

Well i absolutely disagree he has no handle. I actually think his handle has been pretty good. For comparisons sake, i see it as being FAR supreior already to the handle of Mario or even someone like Moe Harkless. Im not sure why some think he has no handle at all.

High praise indeed

[PrimeThyme]

Anyone that has watched Isaac for a significant amount of time knows that Isaac has a capable handle. He flashed it in college and has flashed it in the Pros as well. Its false to say otherwise, same as saying AG doesn't have a capable handle as he's shown time and time again that he does. The real question is if their comfortable enough to use it yet, so far for a guy like Isaac who is out there trying to win basketball games and make the right play he hasn't done it consistently becuase hes not being asked to do so yet as that isnt his role in the offense. That doesn't mean he's not capable of it. AG was only asked to set screens, dunk the ball, and get transition points for most of his career because as he's been developing that's been his role in the offense, similar to what Isaac is being asked to do now. As he gets more comfortable he will be able to display more of his skillsets. Luckily, his shot is more advanced than AG's was at this stage so he will be able to contribute in more areas than AG was at this stage in development. Just because he's not being asked to do certain things does not mean that he's not capable of them though.

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[Mc-o]

Anyone that has watched Isaac for a significant amount of time knows that Isaac has a capable handle. He flashed it in college and has flashed it in the Pros as well. Its false to say otherwise, same as saying AG doesn't have a capable handle as he's shown time and time again that he does. The real question is if their comfortable enough to use it yet, so far for a guy like Isaac who is out there trying to win basketball games and make the right play he hasn't done it consistently becuase hes not being asked to do so yet as that isnt his role in the offense. That doesn't mean he's not capable of it. AG was only asked to set screens, dunk the ball, and get transition points for most of his career because as he's been developing that's been his role in the offense, similar to what Isaac is being asked to do now. As he gets more comfortable he will be able to display more of his skillsets. Luckily, his shot is more advanced than AG's was at this stage so he will be able to contribute in more areas than AG was at this stage in development. Just because he's not being asked to do certain things does not mean that he's not capable of them though.

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Yeah he definitely had the potential , it's obvious rt now he is being asked to play a very limited roll in offense for now

[Knightro]

Anyone that has watched Isaac for a significant amount of time knows that Isaac has a capable handle. He flashed it in college and has flashed it in the Pros as well. Its false to say otherwise, same as saying AG doesn't have a capable handle as he's shown time and time again that he does. The real question is if their comfortable enough to use it yet, so far for a guy like Isaac who is out there trying to win basketball games and make the right play he hasn't done it consistently becuase hes not being asked to do so yet as that isnt his role in the offense. That doesn't mean he's not capable of it. AG was only asked to set screens, dunk the ball, and get transition points for most of his career because as he's been developing that's been his role in the offense, similar to what Isaac is being asked to do now. As he gets more comfortable he will be able to display more of his skillsets. Luckily, his shot is more advanced than AG's was at this stage so he will be able to contribute in more areas than AG was at this stage in development. Just because he's not being asked to do certain things does not mean that he's not capable of them though.

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You've shared three GIFs of Isaac and two of them are him shooting a pull up 20 footer (also known as the least efficient shot in basketball) off one sideways dribble because he's not capable of getting around his defender. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I mean no disrespect by this, but saying someone isn't comfortable using their handle means they don't have a functional handle.

I'm a HUGE Isaac fan, but there's no need to pretend he can do things that he can't right now. It doesn't make him any less of a high end prospect.

55% of his field goal attempts come from beyond 16 feet. 25% come from midrange. That alone should be all the proof you need that he doesn't have the dribble drive in his arsenal yet.

[Knightro]

In case I'm not being clear here... a series of fancy hesitation dribbles or jab step moves by Isaac (anyone on the team frankly) that ends with a pull up 20 footer is never something I'll support.

I'm very much anti midrange. Gimme a layup or a three.

[bargnanimvp]

Anyone that has watched Isaac for a significant amount of time knows that Isaac has a capable handle. He flashed it in college and has flashed it in the Pros as well. Its false to say otherwise, same as saying AG doesn't have a capable handle as he's shown time and time again that he does. The real question is if their comfortable enough to use it yet, so far for a guy like Isaac who is out there trying to win basketball games and make the right play he hasn't done it consistently becuase hes not being asked to do so yet as that isnt his role in the offense. That doesn't mean he's not capable of it. AG was only asked to set screens, dunk the ball, and get transition points for most of his career because as he's been developing that's been his role in the offense, similar to what Isaac is being asked to do now. As he gets more comfortable he will be able to display more of his skillsets. Luckily, his shot is more advanced than AG's was at this stage so he will be able to contribute in more areas than AG was at this stage in development. Just because he's not being asked to do certain things does not mean that he's not capable of them though.

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You've shared three GIFs of Isaac and two of them are him shooting a pull up 20 footer (also known as the least efficient shot in basketball) off one sideways dribble because he's not capable of getting around his defender. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I mean no disrespect by this, but saying someone isn't comfortable using their handle means they don't have a functional handle.

I'm a HUGE Isaac fan, but there's no need to pretend he can do things that he can't right now. It doesn't make him any less of a high end prospect.

55% of his field goal attempts come from beyond 16 feet. 25% come from midrange. That alone should be all the proof you need that he doesn't have the dribble drive in his arsenal yet.

There were knocks on him in his draft reports too iirc about not being confident with his dribble. I seem to remember hearing how he shied away from handling a lot in the open court and his fast break stats were low vs other wings. I agree with you his handle is his weakness right now and the mid range shots are a nice skill to have (i like his release and motion from the high post/mid range area) but it's not a move he should be going to as much as he does right now.

He'll learn, he's young. At worst if he never develops a wing level handle i still think he is going to be a very good player.

[PrimeThyme]

Anyone that has watched Isaac for a significant amount of time knows that Isaac has a capable handle. He flashed it in college and has flashed it in the Pros as well. Its false to say otherwise, same as saying AG doesn't have a capable handle as he's shown time and time again that he does. The real question is if their comfortable enough to use it yet, so far for a guy like Isaac who is out there trying to win basketball games and make the right play he hasn't done it consistently becuase hes not being asked to do so yet as that isnt his role in the offense. That doesn't mean he's not capable of it. AG was only asked to set screens, dunk the ball, and get transition points for most of his career because as he's been developing that's been his role in the offense, similar to what Isaac is being asked to do now. As he gets more comfortable he will be able to display more of his skillsets. Luckily, his shot is more advanced than AG's was at this stage so he will be able to contribute in more areas than AG was at this stage in development. Just because he's not being asked to do certain things does not mean that he's not capable of them though.

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You've shared three GIFs of Isaac and two of them are him shooting a pull up 20 footer (also known as the least efficient shot in basketball) off one sideways dribble because he's not capable of getting around his defender. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I mean no disrespect by this, but saying someone isn't comfortable using their handle means they don't have a functional handle.

I'm a HUGE Isaac fan, but there's no need to pretend he can do things that he can't right now. It doesn't make him any less of a high end prospect.

55% of his field goal attempts come from beyond 16 feet. 25% come from midrange. That alone should be all the proof you need that he doesn't have the dribble drive in his arsenal yet.

You do realize that having the ability to dribble drive is not the only thing that constitutes a good handle right? There are multiple components that go into a handle. The ability to have great coordination, dexterity, the ability to coordinate feet movements with hands, The ability to break a defender down off the dribble to create an open shot, The ability to display multiple dribble moves as he did in these clips effectively to create (between the legs followed by a crossover to create an open shot, the low dribble to split two defenders and finish at the rim, shows the ability to control his dribble at a pace bringing the ball up the court), He's shown the ability to do all of these things and therfore he has a capable handle. I'm not saying he's some great ball handler but you talk as if he's shown no ability whatsoever to handle the ball and that's just not true. Are their other things he could add to his arsenal such as a dribble drive that would improve his ball handling skills and offensive game overall? Yes, but right now he's not being asked to do that. It will come with time and experience.

He has just played his first 11 games as a pro and has been asked to play a conservative role in the offense. I use the word comfortable because he himself said in one of the postgame interviews that as he gets more comfortable and used to the NBA game we will start to see more and more things on the offensive end.

[bargnanimvp]

I wouldn't say he has a complete lack of handle like knigtro said higher up though, if he was going to be a power forward I'd say he has an above average average handle easy but if he's going to be more of a wing he's still raw. It's possible it's partly confidence/mind set/style of play he's used to because at times his handle doesn't look too bad. I think he'll work on it.

[Knightro]

You do realize that having the ability to dribble drive is not the only thing that constitutes a good handle right? There are multiple components that go into a handle. The ability to have great coordination, dexterity, the ability to coordinate feet movements with hands, The ability to break a defender down off the dribble to create an open shot, The ability to display multiple dribble moves as he did in these clips effectively to create (between the legs followed by a crossover to create an open shot, the low dribble to split two defenders and finish at the rim, shows the ability to control his dribble at a pace bringing the ball up the court), He's shown the ability to do all of these things and therfore he has a capable handle. I'm not saying he's some great ball handler but you talk as if he's shown no ability whatsoever to handle the ball and that's just not true. Are their other things he could add to his arsenal such as a dribble drive that would improve his ball handling skills and offensive game overall? Yes, but right now he's not being asked to do that. It will come with time and experience.

He has just played his first 11 games as a pro and has been asked to play a conservative role in the offense. I use the word comfortable because he himself said in one of the postgame interviews that as he gets more comfortable and used to the NBA game we will start to see more and more things on the offensive end.

I get what you're saying and maybe this is less of a "Isaac can't handle the ball" debate and more of a "ball handling moves that end in a 20 footer are meaningless to me" debate.

The ability to break a defender down off the dribble to create an open shot IS a great skill... if you're actually able to create an efficient shot. If your handle is functional enough to where it allows you get all the way to the basket and take advantage of your athleticism at the rim? Great. If you add that with the court vision and passing ability to find open spot shooters? Even better!

If Isaac goes between the legs and then crosses over and the end result is a 20 footer? The "moves" are nice and that's all well and good, but that's not a functional handle to me. That's just dribbling to create an inefficient shot.

RIGHT NOW - and I think this will improve over time - but right now Isaac has shown very little ability to effectively move forward on the attack with multiple dribbles. Everything is a jab step + sideways escape dribble or a hesitation pull up.

Also for what it's worth, that clip from the Miami game where Isaac split the trap and got all the way to the rim with multiple dribbles is legit one of the only times he did that all of last year at FSU.

[PrimeThyme]

You do realize that having the ability to dribble drive is not the only thing that constitutes a good handle right? There are multiple components that go into a handle. The ability to have great coordination, dexterity, the ability to coordinate feet movements with hands, The ability to break a defender down off the dribble to create an open shot, The ability to display multiple dribble moves as he did in these clips effectively to create (between the legs followed by a crossover to create an open shot, the low dribble to split two defenders and finish at the rim, shows the ability to control his dribble at a pace bringing the ball up the court), He's shown the ability to do all of these things and therfore he has a capable handle. I'm not saying he's some great ball handler but you talk as if he's shown no ability whatsoever to handle the ball and that's just not true. Are their other things he could add to his arsenal such as a dribble drive that would improve his ball handling skills and offensive game overall? Yes, but right now he's not being asked to do that. It will come with time and experience.

He has just played his first 11 games as a pro and has been asked to play a conservative role in the offense. I use the word comfortable because he himself said in one of the postgame interviews that as he gets more comfortable and used to the NBA game we will start to see more and more things on the offensive end.

I get what you're saying and maybe this is less of a "Isaac can't handle the ball" debate and more of a "ball handling moves that end in a 20 footer are meaningless to me" debate.

The ability to break a defender down off the dribble to create an open shot IS a great skill... if you're actually able to create an efficient shot. If your handle is functional enough to where it allows you get all the way to the basket and take advantage of your athleticism at the rim? Great. If you add that with the court vision and passing ability to find open spot shooters? Even better!

If Isaac goes between the legs and then crosses over and the end result is a 20 footer? The "moves" are nice and that's all well and good, but that's not a functional handle to me. That's just dribbling to create an inefficient shot.

Also for what it's worth, that clip from the Miami game where Isaac split the trap and got all the way to the rim with multiple dribbles is legit one of the only times he did that all of last year at FSU.

I get what you're saying and maybe this is less of a "Isaac can't handle the ball" debate and more of a "ball handling moves that end in a 20 footer are meaningless to me" debate.

Thats fine and is a debate that is much more sensible to have in my opinion. To have that debate though, there would have to be an understanding that he has a capable handle in the first place and from there the conversation on how he can improve it and use his already capable handle more effectively could be had.

[Knightro]

Thats fine and is a debate that is much more sensible to have in my opinion. To have that debate though, there would have to be an understanding that he has a capable handle in the first place and from there the conversation on how he can improve it and use his already capable handle more effectively could be had.

I still fundamentally disagree with the idea that someone has a capable handle if they functionally can't attack the rim off the bounce, but we're really getting into the weeds on semantics at that point.