Fultz vs. Tatum: What do you think now?

[Duke4life831]

At this point, I think we we definitely won the trade.

I said it earlier in this thread, and Mike and Scal echoed me last night: Tatum reminds me of Paul Pierce when he came into the league. Celtics legend and MVP of the NBA finals. That's the kind of talent Tatum is showing.

So unless Fultz turns into Michael Jordan 2.0, we won the trade.

I thought you guys won it the day of the trade because to me there really wasnt much difference between the top 3-4 picks. So if you can get one of those guys while picking up another 1st round pick, to me thats a huge win. Then you add on how well Tatum has looked, I wasnt worried about the defense or fitting into a team system, to me if you watched him at Duke you knew those two things were not worries. But the thing Im impressed with Tatum is his 3pt% (doubt it stays around 50, I think it ends up around 36-38%) and his athleticism. I thought he would be a low 30% shooter from 3 his first season and I thought he may have some issues creating space athletically. To me hes been moving really well and looks plenty quick/fast/explosive enough where his athleticism wont put a cap on his potential. He showed some speed in the open court yesterday on that fast break dunk.

Then add in all the weird stuff going on with Fultz, hard to imagine this trade turning bad for you guys.

[Grahf]

At this point, I think we we definitely won the trade.

I said it earlier in this thread, and Mike and Scal echoed me last night: Tatum reminds me of Paul Pierce when he came into the league. Celtics legend and MVP of the NBA finals. That's the kind of talent Tatum is showing.

So unless Fultz turns into Michael Jordan 2.0, we won the trade.

I thought you guys won it the day of the trade because to me there really wasnt much difference between the top 3-4 picks. So if you can get one of those guys while picking up another 1st round pick, to me thats a huge win. Then you add on how well Tatum has looked, I wasnt worried about the defense or fitting into a team system, to me if you watched him at Duke you knew those two things were not worries. But the thing Im impressed with Tatum is his 3pt% (doubt it stays around 50, I think it ends up around 36-38%) and his athleticism. I thought he would be a low 30% shooter from 3 his first season and I thought he may have some issues creating space athletically. To me hes been moving really well and looks plenty quick/fast/explosive enough where his athleticism wont put a cap on his potential. He showed some speed in the open court yesterday on that fast break dunk.

Then add in all the weird stuff going on with Fultz, hard to imagine this trade turning bad for you guys.

It astonishes me that Tatum's supposed weaknesses (athleticism, defense, too iso oriented to fit into a movement heavy system) have in fact been strengths so far. I remember Brad saying that he loved Tatum's ability to guard all five positions. I thought this was a joke or just Brad saying something nice, but it's turned out that Tatum can, effectively, switch onto pretty much anyone.

I'm not sure how to explain his athleticism. He simply looks faster and more explosive than he did at Duke. Maybe it's just a product of a summer of hard work or a growing teenage body.

And as for his iso game, if anything, he's been too unselfish, often passing up good looks to make the extra pass.

[Duke4life831]

At this point, I think we we definitely won the trade.

I said it earlier in this thread, and Mike and Scal echoed me last night: Tatum reminds me of Paul Pierce when he came into the league. Celtics legend and MVP of the NBA finals. That's the kind of talent Tatum is showing.

So unless Fultz turns into Michael Jordan 2.0, we won the trade.

I thought you guys won it the day of the trade because to me there really wasnt much difference between the top 3-4 picks. So if you can get one of those guys while picking up another 1st round pick, to me thats a huge win. Then you add on how well Tatum has looked, I wasnt worried about the defense or fitting into a team system, to me if you watched him at Duke you knew those two things were not worries. But the thing Im impressed with Tatum is his 3pt% (doubt it stays around 50, I think it ends up around 36-38%) and his athleticism. I thought he would be a low 30% shooter from 3 his first season and I thought he may have some issues creating space athletically. To me hes been moving really well and looks plenty quick/fast/explosive enough where his athleticism wont put a cap on his potential. He showed some speed in the open court yesterday on that fast break dunk.

Then add in all the weird stuff going on with Fultz, hard to imagine this trade turning bad for you guys.

It astonishes me that Tatum's supposed weaknesses (athleticism, defense, too iso oriented to fit into a movement heavy system) have in fact been strengths so far. I remember Brad saying that he loved Tatum's ability to guard all five positions. I thought this was a joke or just Brad saying something nice, but it's turned out that Tatum can, effectively, switch onto pretty much anyone.

I'm not sure how to explain his athleticism. He simply looks faster and more explosive than he did at Duke. Maybe it's just a product of a summer of hard work or a growing teenage body.

And as for his iso game, if anything, he's been too unselfish, often passing up good looks to make the extra pass.

Ya the dude was by far Duke's best defender. I remember before the season on the draft board everyone saying hes a bad defender, then during the season after like every game a lot of the comments was, "Tatum actually played pretty good defense today." Then come draft time he was a bad defender again, made 0 sense to me.

The ISO thing was another thing I just didnt understand. I think its all because of how talented he is in ISO, everyone just assumed that hes Melo 2.0 and that is the only way he can be effective on offense. But again watching him at Duke that was never an issue, he fit in within the team scheme wonderfully and when we needed to rely on him to score he showed off his ISO ability.

I will admit I was one of those that really questioned his athleticism. I thought he had potential because he could really get up there when he was going for a rebound, but then on drives he would have 0 lift. So I thought it was definitely an issue but that there was a glimmer of hope. Well he looks pretty damn good already and I assume hes only going to get more explosive over the next couple years as he grows into his body. I also think his foot injury before the season at Duke held him back athletically last year as well.

[Fidel Sarcasmo]

I hope he grows another 2-3"

[chris4celts]

I hope he grows another 2-3"

Any indication he's still growing? That would be amazing.

[Fidel Sarcasmo]

I hope he grows another 2-3"

Any indication he's still growing? That would be amazing.

Just being hopeful. he's 19. Never know

[SmartWentCrazy]

I hope he grows another 2-3"

Any indication he's still growing? That would be amazing.

Sam Packard said on Locked On Celtics that he heard internally that the Celtics we’re optimistic he’d grow to 6’10, FWIW. Could be talking out of his ass though

[Slax]

I hope he grows another 2-3"

Any indication he's still growing? That would be amazing.

Sam Packard said on Locked On Celtics that he heard internally that the Celtics we’re optimistic he’d grow to 6’10, FWIW. Could be talking out of his ass though

Most men finish gaining height around the age of 18 or so. It wouldn't be that unusual for a 19-year-old to gain maybe another inch, but two or more sounds overly optimistic to me. Then again, maybe they know something I don't.

[leper-con]

The only thing holding him back is not being a ubber athlete.

[Snoopy34]

I hope he grows another 2-3"

Any indication he's still growing? That would be amazing.

Sam Packard said on Locked On Celtics that he heard internally that the Celtics we’re optimistic he’d grow to 6’10, FWIW. Could be talking out of his ass though

Well according to a realGM poll, 12% believe "people continue growing into their 30s, and Ainge should be fired"

[VeryMuchWoke]

I hope he grows another 2-3"

Any indication he's still growing? That would be amazing.

Sam Packard said on Locked On Celtics that he heard internally that the Celtics we’re optimistic he’d grow to 6’10, FWIW. Could be talking out of his ass though

I believe I heard Scal say something along those lines as well.

[sam_I_am]

This is from NBAdraft.net. All of this has turned out to be complete BS. He has been an outstanding defender. His shot blocking and rebounding has been the biggest boost to our improved team defense vs.
ast year. 81% on corner 3s is pretty good for a guy who supposedly couldn’t catch and shoot and can only hit midrange jumpers. However, the weaknesses predraft for Ball and Fultz seem to be worse than predicted.

Weaknesses: One of the first flaws that jump out in Tatum’s game is his inconsistent intensity on defense ... At times, he seems to just go through the motions defensively and didn't demonstrate the competitive desire to lock his man down ... In addition, he is an excellent small-ball four on offense, but the same cannot be said about his defensive impact from this position ... He is not physical enough to handle bigger players down low, and he needs to add some strength to his lower half... He is also not the most physical perimeter defender ... One of the other question marks is that he is still a streaky spot-up shooter ... ... He is much better as a mid-range shooter and there are questions about if he will be able to adapt to the expanded three-point line in the NBA ... Off the catch, his mechanics do not look quite as fluid when he is contested, and he is not always balanced on his release, which can also be a bit quicker ... defenders would mostly go under the ball screen, and he frequently would not make them pay with his pull up when this happened ... Tatum also was guarded mostly by power forwards, so there are concerns about whether he will be able to create offense as effectively against NBA caliber wing players ... He does not have great burst from a stand still position, which causes him to struggle getting to the rim, and he has trouble finishing against top tier length and athleticism ... This forces him to heavily rely on tough floaters and two-point jumpers, which is an inefficient way to score ... He is not the most comfortable playmaker on the move, and because of his inconsistent spot-up shooting in addition to that; there are questions about his effectiveness off the ball ... These few factors will determine how high Tatum’s ceiling is ...

[BigTrade92]

I’m here to eat my share of crow.

I bought into the Fultz hype machine and forsaken the prophet known as Danny Ainge.

Forgive me good Mormon King of Chipolte.

[Duke4life831]

This is from NBAdraft.net. All of this has turned out to be complete BS. He has been an outstanding defender. His shot blocking and rebounding has been the biggest boost to our improved team defense vs.
ast year. 81% on corner 3s is pretty good for a guy who supposedly couldn’t catch and shoot and can only hit midrange jumpers. However, the weaknesses predraft for Ball and Fultz seem to be worse than predicted.

Weaknesses: One of the first flaws that jump out in Tatum’s game is his inconsistent intensity on defense ... At times, he seems to just go through the motions defensively and didn't demonstrate the competitive desire to lock his man down ... In addition, he is an excellent small-ball four on offense, but the same cannot be said about his defensive impact from this position ... He is not physical enough to handle bigger players down low, and he needs to add some strength to his lower half... He is also not the most physical perimeter defender ... One of the other question marks is that he is still a streaky spot-up shooter ... ... He is much better as a mid-range shooter and there are questions about if he will be able to adapt to the expanded three-point line in the NBA ... Off the catch, his mechanics do not look quite as fluid when he is contested, and he is not always balanced on his release, which can also be a bit quicker ... defenders would mostly go under the ball screen, and he frequently would not make them pay with his pull up when this happened ... Tatum also was guarded mostly by power forwards, so there are concerns about whether he will be able to create offense as effectively against NBA caliber wing players ... He does not have great burst from a stand still position, which causes him to struggle getting to the rim, and he has trouble finishing against top tier length and athleticism ... This forces him to heavily rely on tough floaters and two-point jumpers, which is an inefficient way to score ... He is not the most comfortable playmaker on the move, and because of his inconsistent spot-up shooting in addition to that; there are questions about his effectiveness off the ball ... These few factors will determine how high Tatum’s ceiling is ...

To me draft.net has always been a horrific site. Their comparisons have always been terrible and theyre scouting reports are even worse. Having watched every minute the dude played at Duke, the only thing I say is accurate was his trouble finishing over elite athleticism and size and that was one of the reasons I questioned his athleticism. But as of now his athleticism hasnt seemed to hold him back so that worry is kind of a moot point right now. I just never got the defensive thing, I guess maybe because he wasnt an super emotional guy or an in your face defender people just assumed he was a bad defender. The dude is an unbelievably smart defender and knows how to use his body and length to his advantage kind of like a Joe Ingles. And ya anyone who questioned that dudes jumper is foolish, I thought it may take a couple years until he was considered a knock down 3pt shooter, but there was no doubt in my mind he was going to be an elite shooter, just look at his form and touch.

[DarkAzcura]

This is from NBAdraft.net. All of this has turned out to be complete BS. He has been an outstanding defender. His shot blocking and rebounding has been the biggest boost to our improved team defense vs.
ast year. 81% on corner 3s is pretty good for a guy who supposedly couldn’t catch and shoot and can only hit midrange jumpers. However, the weaknesses predraft for Ball and Fultz seem to be worse than predicted.

To me draft.net has always been a horrific site. Their comparisons have always been terrible and theyre scouting reports are even worse. Having watched every minute the dude played at Duke, the only thing I say is accurate was his trouble finishing over elite athleticism and size and that was one of the reasons I questioned his athleticism. But as of now his athleticism hasnt seemed to hold him back so that worry is kind of a moot point right now. I just never got the defensive thing, I guess maybe because he wasnt an super emotional guy or an in your face defender people just assumed he was a bad defender. The dude is an unbelievably smart defender and knows how to use his body and length to his advantage kind of like a Joe Ingles. And ya anyone who questioned that dudes jumper is foolish, I thought it may take a couple years until he was considered a knock down 3pt shooter, but there was no doubt in my mind he was going to be an elite shooter, just look at his form and touch.

I am with you. For whatever reason, people consistently confuse playing with pace with either lack of athletic ability (on the offensive end) or not caring (defensive end). It was pretty clear to me that Tatum had a very good defensive foundation and fundamentals in college. Just because he wasn't getting in peoples' faces and all up in their space doesn't mean he lacked desire on that end.

Also, back to offense, similarly to Murray for me, Tatum's athletic ability was really underrated because he is the kind of offensive player who knows how to control pace and stay in control. I saw it for years with Pierce. Fans from other teams would constantly wonder how the hell Pierce could get his shot off when he looked so "unathletic." Pierce knew how to control pace on the offensive end and knew exactly when to attack. That's far more important.

It also blows me away how many people doubted that a really good mid-range shooter could expand his range at the age of 18 and 19. Most people are worried about players having a jump shot at all let alone already having a solid mid-range shot to work from and expand off of.

[Duke4life831]

This is from NBAdraft.net. All of this has turned out to be complete BS. He has been an outstanding defender. His shot blocking and rebounding has been the biggest boost to our improved team defense vs.
ast year. 81% on corner 3s is pretty good for a guy who supposedly couldn’t catch and shoot and can only hit midrange jumpers. However, the weaknesses predraft for Ball and Fultz seem to be worse than predicted.

To me draft.net has always been a horrific site. Their comparisons have always been terrible and theyre scouting reports are even worse. Having watched every minute the dude played at Duke, the only thing I say is accurate was his trouble finishing over elite athleticism and size and that was one of the reasons I questioned his athleticism. But as of now his athleticism hasnt seemed to hold him back so that worry is kind of a moot point right now. I just never got the defensive thing, I guess maybe because he wasnt an super emotional guy or an in your face defender people just assumed he was a bad defender. The dude is an unbelievably smart defender and knows how to use his body and length to his advantage kind of like a Joe Ingles. And ya anyone who questioned that dudes jumper is foolish, I thought it may take a couple years until he was considered a knock down 3pt shooter, but there was no doubt in my mind he was going to be an elite shooter, just look at his form and touch.

I am with you. For whatever reason, people consistently confuse playing with pace with either lack of athletic ability (on the offensive end) or not caring (defensive end). It was pretty clear to me that Tatum had a very good defensive foundation and fundamentals in college. Just because he wasn't getting in peoples' faces and all up in their space doesn't mean he lacked desire on that end.

Also, back to offense, similarly to Murray for me, Tatum's athletic ability was really underrated because he is the kind of offensive player who knows how to control pace and stay in control. I saw it for years with Pierce. Fans from other teams would constantly wonder how the hell Pierce could get his shot off when he looked so "unathletic." Pierce knew how to control pace on the offensive end and knew exactly when to attack. That's far more important.

It also blows me away how many people doubted that a really good mid-range shooter could expand his range at the age of 18 and 19. Most people are worried about players having a jump shot at all let alone already having a solid mid-range shot to work from and expand off of.

I agree with everything except only somewhat with the athletic part. He definitely plays under control and plays at his own speed so that hurts his athletic image so to say. But his lack of explosiveness at the rim showed up against teams with legit length, especially early in the season. He was really struggling to find ways to finish over the length and size. But as the season went on he did become better and looking back on it, I think a lot of that had to do with his foot injury to start the year, he got more and more athletic throughout the year and now he looks a lot more athletic than he did while at Duke. So I think the struggles of finishing against length was a legit concern, but it appears a lot of those struggles was just because of injuries.

And ya the dude was a mid range killer with tremendous form and its not like he was an awful 3pt shooter either, the dude shot 37% from 3 on 4.4 attempts a game as a freshman(conference play, I hate using normal per game stats because early non conference games tend to skew numbers because of the poor competition), that aint too shabby.

[DarkAzcura]

To me draft.net has always been a horrific site. Their comparisons have always been terrible and theyre scouting reports are even worse. Having watched every minute the dude played at Duke, the only thing I say is accurate was his trouble finishing over elite athleticism and size and that was one of the reasons I questioned his athleticism. But as of now his athleticism hasnt seemed to hold him back so that worry is kind of a moot point right now. I just never got the defensive thing, I guess maybe because he wasnt an super emotional guy or an in your face defender people just assumed he was a bad defender. The dude is an unbelievably smart defender and knows how to use his body and length to his advantage kind of like a Joe Ingles. And ya anyone who questioned that dudes jumper is foolish, I thought it may take a couple years until he was considered a knock down 3pt shooter, but there was no doubt in my mind he was going to be an elite shooter, just look at his form and touch.

I am with you. For whatever reason, people consistently confuse playing with pace with either lack of athletic ability (on the offensive end) or not caring (defensive end). It was pretty clear to me that Tatum had a very good defensive foundation and fundamentals in college. Just because he wasn't getting in peoples' faces and all up in their space doesn't mean he lacked desire on that end.

Also, back to offense, similarly to Murray for me, Tatum's athletic ability was really underrated because he is the kind of offensive player who knows how to control pace and stay in control. I saw it for years with Pierce. Fans from other teams would constantly wonder how the hell Pierce could get his shot off when he looked so "unathletic." Pierce knew how to control pace on the offensive end and knew exactly when to attack. That's far more important.

It also blows me away how many people doubted that a really good mid-range shooter could expand his range at the age of 18 and 19. Most people are worried about players having a jump shot at all let alone already having a solid mid-range shot to work from and expand off of.

I agree with everything except only somewhat with the athletic part. He definitely plays under control and plays at his own speed so that hurts his athletic image so to say. But his lack of explosiveness at the rim showed up against teams with legit length, especially early in the season. He was really struggling to find ways to finish over the length and size. But as the season went on he did become better and looking back on it, I think a lot of that had to do with his foot injury to start the year, he got more and more athletic throughout the year and now he looks a lot more athletic than he did while at Duke. So I think the struggles of finishing against length was a legit concern, but it appears a lot of those struggles was just because of injuries.

And ya the dude was a mid range killer with tremendous form and its not like he was an awful 3pt shooter either, the dude shot 37% from 3 on 4.4 attempts a game as a freshman(conference play, I hate using normal per game stats because early non conference games tend to skew numbers because of the poor competition), that aint too shabby.

Yeah not to beat a dead horse, but it still blows me away. Tatum's scouting report is really the clearest example I can think of where people completely out thought themselves with regards to his shooting. Most people are left wondering if players can develop a shot at all. Expanding his range? Easy as hell compared to having to develop a shot from ground up like a lot of prospects.

I think it's because as a Celtic fan I have spent years watching Ainge draft non-shooters with the hope of turning them into at least OK shooters eventually..that the idea of adding someone who already had a developed mid-range shot sounded like easy street to me and probably the Celtics' coaching staff, heh.

[Duke4life831]

I am with you. For whatever reason, people consistently confuse playing with pace with either lack of athletic ability (on the offensive end) or not caring (defensive end). It was pretty clear to me that Tatum had a very good defensive foundation and fundamentals in college. Just because he wasn't getting in peoples' faces and all up in their space doesn't mean he lacked desire on that end.

Also, back to offense, similarly to Murray for me, Tatum's athletic ability was really underrated because he is the kind of offensive player who knows how to control pace and stay in control. I saw it for years with Pierce. Fans from other teams would constantly wonder how the hell Pierce could get his shot off when he looked so "unathletic." Pierce knew how to control pace on the offensive end and knew exactly when to attack. That's far more important.

It also blows me away how many people doubted that a really good mid-range shooter could expand his range at the age of 18 and 19. Most people are worried about players having a jump shot at all let alone already having a solid mid-range shot to work from and expand off of.

I agree with everything except only somewhat with the athletic part. He definitely plays under control and plays at his own speed so that hurts his athletic image so to say. But his lack of explosiveness at the rim showed up against teams with legit length, especially early in the season. He was really struggling to find ways to finish over the length and size. But as the season went on he did become better and looking back on it, I think a lot of that had to do with his foot injury to start the year, he got more and more athletic throughout the year and now he looks a lot more athletic than he did while at Duke. So I think the struggles of finishing against length was a legit concern, but it appears a lot of those struggles was just because of injuries.

And ya the dude was a mid range killer with tremendous form and its not like he was an awful 3pt shooter either, the dude shot 37% from 3 on 4.4 attempts a game as a freshman(conference play, I hate using normal per game stats because early non conference games tend to skew numbers because of the poor competition), that aint too shabby.

Yeah not to beat a dead horse, but it still blows me away. Tatum's scouting report is really the clearest example I can think of where people completely out thought themselves with regards to his shooting. Most people are left wondering if players can develop a shot at all. Expanding his range? Easy as hell compared to having to develop a shot from ground up like a lot of prospects.

I actually think a lot of Tatum's scouting reports and what you heard on TV before the draft just shows how much people just regurgitate what they heard from someone else. Before his season at Duke Tatum was labeled as a ball stopper ISO scorer that struggled with range and was a bad defender. It didnt matter that he played very well in a team system, shot well from 3 or was the teams best defender. People already heard the previous thing, didnt watch the games and just regurgitated the same old scouting report.

[shackles10]

I agree with everything except only somewhat with the athletic part. He definitely plays under control and plays at his own speed so that hurts his athletic image so to say. But his lack of explosiveness at the rim showed up against teams with legit length, especially early in the season. He was really struggling to find ways to finish over the length and size. But as the season went on he did become better and looking back on it, I think a lot of that had to do with his foot injury to start the year, he got more and more athletic throughout the year and now he looks a lot more athletic than he did while at Duke. So I think the struggles of finishing against length was a legit concern, but it appears a lot of those struggles was just because of injuries.

And ya the dude was a mid range killer with tremendous form and its not like he was an awful 3pt shooter either, the dude shot 37% from 3 on 4.4 attempts a game as a freshman(conference play, I hate using normal per game stats because early non conference games tend to skew numbers because of the poor competition), that aint too shabby.

Yeah not to beat a dead horse, but it still blows me away. Tatum's scouting report is really the clearest example I can think of where people completely out thought themselves with regards to his shooting. Most people are left wondering if players can develop a shot at all. Expanding his range? Easy as hell compared to having to develop a shot from ground up like a lot of prospects.

I actually think a lot of Tatum's scouting reports and what you heard on TV before the draft just shows how much people just regurgitate what they heard from someone else. Before his season at Duke Tatum was labeled as a ball stopper ISO scorer that struggled with range and was a bad defender. It didnt matter that he played very well in a team system, shot well from 3 or was the teams best defender. People already heard the previous thing, didnt watch the games and just regurgitated the same old scouting report.

This, unfortunately, is how opinions are formed about most things in 2017.

[DarkAzcura]

I agree with everything except only somewhat with the athletic part. He definitely plays under control and plays at his own speed so that hurts his athletic image so to say. But his lack of explosiveness at the rim showed up against teams with legit length, especially early in the season. He was really struggling to find ways to finish over the length and size. But as the season went on he did become better and looking back on it, I think a lot of that had to do with his foot injury to start the year, he got more and more athletic throughout the year and now he looks a lot more athletic than he did while at Duke. So I think the struggles of finishing against length was a legit concern, but it appears a lot of those struggles was just because of injuries.

And ya the dude was a mid range killer with tremendous form and its not like he was an awful 3pt shooter either, the dude shot 37% from 3 on 4.4 attempts a game as a freshman(conference play, I hate using normal per game stats because early non conference games tend to skew numbers because of the poor competition), that aint too shabby.

Yeah not to beat a dead horse, but it still blows me away. Tatum's scouting report is really the clearest example I can think of where people completely out thought themselves with regards to his shooting. Most people are left wondering if players can develop a shot at all. Expanding his range? Easy as hell compared to having to develop a shot from ground up like a lot of prospects.

I actually think a lot of Tatum's scouting reports and what you heard on TV before the draft just shows how much people just regurgitate what they heard from someone else. Before his season at Duke Tatum was labeled as a ball stopper ISO scorer that struggled with range and was a bad defender. It didnt matter that he played very well in a team system, shot well from 3 or was the teams best defender. People already heard the previous thing, didnt watch the games and just regurgitated the same old scouting report.

I'm a victim of this in someways. I had Fultz number 1 because how could this many people be wrong. I was always a big Tatum fan regardless of all that stuff people would say but always had him behind Fultz for that reason.

Now Fultz hasn't a chance to prove himself yet obviously, but it definitely shows so far that the gap really shouldn't had been viewed as large as it was.