Game 12: Miami Heat at Phoenix Suns, Wednesday, November 8th, 7PM MST

[Saberestar]

Guys hate to say it but Bender and Chriss are nothing more than average roll players.... they are not players that you build a franchise around ! Top five pick in this years draft will be nice though

It is sad but I agree.

It is really rare to be that bad on the first two sesons and then explode on the third season...it is not a common thing.

Both are playing because of "potential" and expectations (#4 and #8 picks), but journeymen as Tolliver or Arthur are better players than them today, and that can be said probably even in the future. I hope that not...but it is a sad and a real possibility.

[Saberestar]

Watching the game it is pretty obvious that we need help. We need help at PG absolutely for sure. At PF/C we need help too.

James is fine as a third PG but he is starting
...is too much for him. Ulis is playing really bad, he is one of my favorite players but it is true that he can not play an starting role if we want to be competitive, at least for now.

And we need help inside.
It is ridiculous to have under contract Monroe and not play him because we think we are fine at C.

He is a solid player who would be great on the post for us...he can not be worse than Chandler or Len, he is an upgrade that can make the games more watchable and he is young enough to be part of the future. He is a good passer for his position and that is a great plus for a big under our system.

[bwgood77]

Guys hate to say it but Bender and Chriss are nothing more than average roll players.... they are not players that you build a franchise around ! Top five pick in this years draft will be nice though

It is sad but I agree.

It is really rare to be that bad on the first two sesons and then explode on the third season...it is not a common thing.

Both are playing because of "potential" and expectations (#4 and #8 picks), but journeymen as Tolliver or Arthur are better players than them today, and that can be said probably even in the future. I hope that not...but it is a sad and a real possibility.

They are only 12 games into the second season and Bender barely even played in the first season. Heck, he barely got playing time the season before that. Chriss improved a ton over last year. He's night and day compared to the beginning of last season. They wasted a year and 3 games under the non-tutelage of Watson. He was the first nba coach they had. He had one year as a G league assistant.

95% of the rookies are playing like crap and a very large percentage of the second year players. Jamal Murray is playing like crap. He's a combo guard known for shooting, who is shooting under 24% from 3 and under 40% overall. Its not like he does anything else. Hield, even with 3 more years of experience in college is only shooting 42% from overall and 33% from 3, and he is just a "sharp shooter". Dunn has played terribly. Those are all the guys drafted between Bender and Chriss. And there are only a handful of guys drafted after that even playing much and very few playing well.

[Saberestar]

Guys hate to say it but Bender and Chriss are nothing more than average roll players.... they are not players that you build a franchise around ! Top five pick in this years draft will be nice though

It is sad but I agree.

It is really rare to be that bad on the first two sesons and then explode on the third season...it is not a common thing.

Both are playing because of "potential" and expectations (#4 and #8 picks), but journeymen as Tolliver or Arthur are better players than them today, and that can be said probably even in the future. I hope that not...but it is a sad and a real possibility.

They are only 12 games into the second season and Bender barely even played in the first season. Heck, he barely got playing time the season before that. Chriss improved a ton over last year. He's night and day compared to the beginning of last season. They wasted a year and 3 games under the non-tutelage of Watson. He was the first nba coach they had. He had one year as a G league assistant.

95% of the rookies are playing like crap and a very large percentage of the second year players. Jamal Murray is playing like crap. He's a combo guard known for shooting, who is shooting under 24% from 3 and under 40% overall. Its not like he does anything else. Hield, even with 3 more years of experience in college is only shooting 42% from overall and 33% from 3, and he is just a "sharp shooter". Dunn has played terribly. Those are all the guys drafted between Bender and Chriss. And there are only a handful of guys drafted after that even playing much and very few playing well.

Yeah, I understand you and I think you are right about being too early to call them role players, but I am really bothered about their skillset.

If you watch Simmons, Ingram or Jaylen Brown play you see that you have in any of them a clearly building block for the future. All three are capable of leading an offense and defensively they are solid (Brown the better). They have an skillset than can make them All Stars pretty soon...but with Chriss and Bender what we have?

They look lost and if they put 10 points in a game we need to celebrate it big time.

They do not have any go'to moves, they are not great at nothing. At least Hield is a shooter gor example, you have that for sure. With Bender and Chriss you have nothing for sure, Bender's perimeter defense has been way overrated and Chriss as a finisher around the rim is a joke and that was said as an strenght of him.

It bothers me because we needed to hit the target with two picks in the Top 10 last year...so far it looks like we probably have failed on both. Too early to say, but I am losing hope.

[Mjee]

It is sad but I agree.

It is really rare to be that bad on the first two sesons and then explode on the third season...it is not a common thing.

Both are playing because of "potential" and expectations (#4 and #8 picks), but journeymen as Tolliver or Arthur are better players than them today, and that can be said probably even in the future. I hope that not...but it is a sad and a real possibility.

They are only 12 games into the second season and Bender barely even played in the first season. Heck, he barely got playing time the season before that. Chriss improved a ton over last year. He's night and day compared to the beginning of last season. They wasted a year and 3 games under the non-tutelage of Watson. He was the first nba coach they had. He had one year as a G league assistant.

95% of the rookies are playing like crap and a very large percentage of the second year players. Jamal Murray is playing like crap. He's a combo guard known for shooting, who is shooting under 24% from 3 and under 40% overall. Its not like he does anything else. Hield, even with 3 more years of experience in college is only shooting 42% from overall and 33% from 3, and he is just a "sharp shooter". Dunn has played terribly. Those are all the guys drafted between Bender and Chriss. And there are only a handful of guys drafted after that even playing much and very few playing well.

Yeah, I understand you and I think you are right about being too early to call them role players, but I am really bothered about their skillset.

If you watch Simmons, Ingram or Jaylen Brown play you see that you have in any of them a clearly building block for the future. All three are capable of leading an offense and defensively they are solid (Brown the better). They have an skillset than can make them All Stars pretty soon...but with Chriss and Bender what we have?

They look lost and if they put 10 points in a game we need to celebrate it big time.

They do not have any go'to moves, they are not great at nothing. At least Hield is a shooter gor example, you have that for sure. With Bender and Chriss you have nothing for sure, Bender's perimeter defense has been way overrated and Chriss as a finisher around the rim is a joke and that was said as an strenght of him.

It bothers me because we needed to hit the target with two picks in the Top 10 last year...so far it looks like we probably have failed on both. Too early to say, but I am losing hope.

Well said!! I realize that it is super early in Bender and Chriss's careers and we shouldn't be coming to conclusions like this early in their development. Quite frankly.... I hope they become superstars! However, I don't see them developing into future all-stars. Realistically, I think that the best they can develop into is becoming a teams 4th option on offense.

What is disappointing is that they are #4 and #8 draft picks and we have coined the term "the timeline". Sadly, I don't think they are going to be apart of the next great suns team. I think Chriss is a pronominal athlete but he has zero inside game. Bender has shown defensive improvement but offensively he looks like Channing Frye (Pick and pop player).

They just don't do it for me and if suns fans are relying on them to develop into something special (all-star lite) then I hope you are prepared to wait. I hope I am wrong!

[bwgood77]

For Josh to be playing 10 and 13 mins on this sorry ass team is indicative of our organization. In back to back games....I guess he will get better sitting on the bench.

He needs to be held accountable, if he is on the floor for 10 and 13 mins and plays like **** why should he get rewarded with more minutes?

To get better!!! You correct him then go out there and play. You don't sit him on the bench... if a kid messes up on the field, I'll call him over and tell him what he did wrong and send him back out there, I don't sit him down for the rest of the game!! You are just as bad a coach/teacher as Jay.

Watson started Jackson at power forward. Effort waned. Players whispered that Watson, always encouraging, seemed to let guys stay on the floor through too many mistakes. They wondered about accountability, sources say, and that has become a buzzword up and down the organization under Triano. (Watson declined comment.)

But things are different now. Jackson is coming off the bench and playing at small forward. "I thought we did Josh a bit of a disservice playing him at [power forward] when he has only played [small forward], and we think his future in the NBA is there," Triano says.

Triano will not tolerate a lack of effort, particularly from Chriss, who sulked occasionally when he didn't get the ball during those first three losses and was slow getting back on defense. "When you don't play with energy, you are going to come out," Triano says. "And when he pouts, we are going to take him out and refocus him. He is going to be a great player. He just has to play the right way."

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21339847/zach-lowe-phoenix-suns-eric-bledsoe-devin-booker-nba

[TOO]

At least Lowe knows Booker isn't a PG.

[MathiasPW]

#bringbackkendallmarshall

[AtheJ415]

Guys hate to say it but Bender and Chriss are nothing more than average roll players.... they are not players that you build a franchise around ! Top five pick in this years draft will be nice though

Bender will be much more than that. Look up Jimmy Butler's stats at this age. I cannot understand the lack of patience and ridiculous expectations for 20 year olds in the NBA who were long-term projects at the time of selection.

Sent from my SM-G935T using RealGM mobile app

[King4Day]

I'm glad we fought yesterday at least.

Regarding Bender and Chriss, I'd give them another summer to season before labeling them busts.
Even Philly only landed 2 (so far) great building blocks in their 4 or 5 years of tanking. They struck out on MCW, Noel, and Okafor. And 2 of those guys were thought to be impact players.

[Revived]

Bender will be a useful player but Chriss is in the same mold as guys like Noah Voleh/Thomas Robinson etc.

You have to have at least a certain level of awareness and basketball IQ to play in this league and he has none of it.

I’d wager Chriss won’t be in the nba 5 years from now. I know it’s crazy to say that cause he’s so young and has barely been in the league but the nba is all about projecting based on what a players shown and that’s my opinion of Chriss.

[Mulhollanddrive]

The issue with tanking is that you assume there will be a future All-Star somewhere in the next 10 best players available (being generous with range) with a top pick and you back your scout to identify them.

With Len, Bender, Chriss (pick 4, 5, 9) it looks unlikely any of the next 10 players picked will be future All-Stars so we were picking from 30 players that were just a bad pool.

So if we are going to do this again in 2018 we must have a future All Star close enough to our pick to give ourselves the chance to identify him. There's no point picking pick 6 if there's no All-Stars between 6-16 we are just wasting time.

[bigfoot]

Guys hate to say it but Bender and Chriss are nothing more than average roll players.... they are not players that you build a franchise around ! Top five pick in this years draft will be nice though

Bender will be much more than that. Look up Jimmy Butler's stats at this age. I cannot understand the lack of patience and ridiculous expectations for 20 year olds in the NBA who were long-term projects at the time of selection.

Sent from my SM-G935T using RealGM mobile app

Ha! Ha! Butler started playing in the NBA when he was 22 so there is no comparing him to 19/20 year olds. Not only that he was drafted in the 1st round as the 30th pick. His rookie season was the one after the Bulls went to the Eastern Conference Finals so he wasn't going to get much playing time behind Deng, Brewer, and Korver. By his second season he was earning significant playing time on a perennial playoff team, loaded with seasoned vets. He wasn't given anything as a rookie and had to earn his time. Butler is probably the worst example you could have ever used to justify your tanking philosophy. He is a perfect example of players developing in a winning culture.

If we are going to tank we need a rookie who out of the gate shows he has immense potential. Sadly, that doesn't happen with the Suns and their top 5 picks. Amare is a good example and Booker is a good example but neither of them were top 5 picks. Bender, Chriss, Len ... not really. Jackson has me frightened that we wasted another high pick.

[kennydorglas]

Read on Twitter

Please... STAGGER THEM.

[thamadkant]

Booker and Warren takes away each other's good spots inside the arc anyways... eye test... but the data seems to back it up.


Regarding Bender... he has the skill set although it needs to be polished, he has the height and mobility, he has a good IQ... but lacks the intensity to out work the better players in his position. Duncan is used as a good "calm" player example, but Duncan was intense... he was just quiet.

Bender needs to be more intense... more aggressive, it can come. But he needs to play with more energy and effort in every play.




Chriss is dumb.
He can eventually be Gerald Green-like, as in he develops a shot and be useful. But defensively... he goes for blocks a lot, leaves his feet, gets baited.... plays defense with his arms and body rather than legs... which is FUNDAMENTALLY thought.
He's young, but he needs a hard azz coach on his face disciplining him NOW.... not next year.... NOW.

[lilfishi22]

Guys hate to say it but Bender and Chriss are nothing more than average roll players.... they are not players that you build a franchise around ! Top five pick in this years draft will be nice though

It is sad but I agree.

It is really rare to be that bad on the first two sesons and then explode on the third season...it is not a common thing.

Both are playing because of "potential" and expectations (#4 and #8 picks), but journeymen as Tolliver or Arthur are better players than them today, and that can be said probably even in the future. I hope that not...but it is a sad and a real possibility.

Right now they are both trending that way and I have to agree. And to be fair, I didn't ever see star potential in either guys so I didn't have high hopes anyway. I have higher hopes for Bender since he's still very young, he has the body and skills that suit today's NBA and most importantly, he has the BBIQ. Kirilenko-lite wouldn't be out of question. I was never really high on Chriss.

[lilfishi22]

He needs to be held accountable, if he is on the floor for 10 and 13 mins and plays like **** why should he get rewarded with more minutes?

To get better!!! You correct him then go out there and play. You don't sit him on the bench... if a kid messes up on the field, I'll call him over and tell him what he did wrong and send him back out there, I don't sit him down for the rest of the game!! You are just as bad a coach/teacher as Jay.

Watson started Jackson at power forward. Effort waned. Players whispered that Watson, always encouraging, seemed to let guys stay on the floor through too many mistakes. They wondered about accountability, sources say, and that has become a buzzword up and down the organization under Triano. (Watson declined comment.)

But things are different now. Jackson is coming off the bench and playing at small forward. "I thought we did Josh a bit of a disservice playing him at [power forward] when he has only played [small forward], and we think his future in the NBA is there," Triano says.

Triano will not tolerate a lack of effort, particularly from Chriss, who sulked occasionally when he didn't get the ball during those first three losses and was slow getting back on defense. "When you don't play with energy, you are going to come out," Triano says. "And when he pouts, we are going to take him out and refocus him. He is going to be a great player. He just has to play the right way."

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21339847/zach-lowe-phoenix-suns-eric-bledsoe-devin-booker-nba

+1

All this BS about getting playing time regardless of how you play just because you're young is exactly the wrong way to develop young players. When effort and body language isn't where it needs to be, you know they are not focused. Nothing focuses you more than the thought that if you don't play the right way than a benching. Accountability is something we haven't had and I mentioned it many times last season that we were doing Chriss a disservice last season by continuing to start and play him more minutes than you would expect for his level play.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Some interesting on / off court numbers:

James 5 points better than Ulis
Booker 0 points better than Daniels
Warren 2 points better than Jackson
Chriss 3 points better than Bender
Chandler 0 points better than Len

[AtheJ415]

Guys hate to say it but Bender and Chriss are nothing more than average roll players.... they are not players that you build a franchise around ! Top five pick in this years draft will be nice though

Bender will be much more than that. Look up Jimmy Butler's stats at this age. I cannot understand the lack of patience and ridiculous expectations for 20 year olds in the NBA who were long-term projects at the time of selection.

Sent from my SM-G935T using RealGM mobile app

Ha! Ha! Butler started playing in the NBA when he was 22 so there is no comparing him to 19/20 year olds. Not only that he was drafted in the 1st round as the 30th pick. His rookie season was the one after the Bulls went to the Eastern Conference Finals so he wasn't going to get much playing time behind Deng, Brewer, and Korver. By his second season he was earning significant playing time on a perennial playoff team, loaded with seasoned vets. He wasn't given anything as a rookie and had to earn his time. Butler is probably the worst example you could have ever used to justify your tanking philosophy. He is a perfect example of players developing in a winning culture.

If we are going to tank we need a rookie who out of the gate shows he has immense potential. Sadly, that doesn't happen with the Suns and their top 5 picks. Amare is a good example and Booker is a good example but neither of them were top 5 picks. Bender, Chriss, Len ... not really. Jackson has me frightened that we wasted another high pick.

Ha! Ha! Butler's stats were absolute garbage until he was 25-26. That is the point. You want to judge a bunch of 19 and 20 year olds as lost causes while excusing these stats that supposedly earned him "significant playing time on a perennial playoff team, LOADED with seasoned vets".

Butler was 22 and shooting 18% from 3. He averaged a whopping 2.6, 1.3, and 0.3 per game.

Season 2 he averaged 8.6, 4, and 1. Chriss put up better numbers as an 18 year old who had only played basketball for a few years.

Butler wasn't even more than a defensive role player until he was 25 and in year 4 in the league.

[AtheJ415]

It's beyond comical how many on this board expect our literal teenagers to progress. There are very few stars in the history of the NBA that much of our fan base would not have written off as lost causes.