prime1time wrote:...You want to talk about his 100MM contract. If the Wizards maximized Otto's ability, he would be underpaid. Take that to the bank. Efficient scorers at high volume are few and far between.
What he said!
Moderators: LyricalRico, nate33, montestewart
prime1time wrote:...You want to talk about his 100MM contract. If the Wizards maximized Otto's ability, he would be underpaid. Take that to the bank. Efficient scorers at high volume are few and far between.
TGW wrote:...-Porter shot 8 times in the game. Oubre managed to shoot more than he did despite less minutes, and Meeks almost outgunned Porter in half the minutes. Morris and Gortat, despite playing 10 and 12 minutes LESS than Otto, managed to put up either more shots than Otto (or more shots per min). I'm not going to even mention Beal. If Otto doesn't want to shoot the damn basketball, that's his fault. Everyone else shot the basketball when they had an opportunity. If that guy wants to crawl into a shell in disappear on the offensive side of the ball, that's his prerogative.
Basketball is a sport where your best players outplay the other team's best players, and that means commanding the ball sometimes. If Porter wants to be the best, he has to act like it. There's absolutely NO EFFING WAY the point guard or the coach is hampering his ability to take double-digit shots in 37 minutes. NONE. 8 shots in 37 minutes is simply unacceptable.
nate33 wrote:RussellandFlow wrote:Got home and tuned in to the final quarter as I wanted to see Dennis Smith go up against Wall, boy was that difficult to watch. Just curious, but what would you all say are the odds in terms of percentage that one of Wall, Beal or Porter is traded at the deadline if the team is hovering around .500?
0% chance that Wall or Beal get traded. I'd say 15% chance that Porter gets traded because management is very poor at evaluating talent.
payitforward wrote:prime1time wrote:...You want to talk about his 100MM contract. If the Wizards maximized Otto's ability, he would be underpaid. Take that to the bank. Efficient scorers at high volume are few and far between.
What he said!
Kanyewest wrote:nate33 wrote:RussellandFlow wrote:Got home and tuned in to the final quarter as I wanted to see Dennis Smith go up against Wall, boy was that difficult to watch. Just curious, but what would you all say are the odds in terms of percentage that one of Wall, Beal or Porter is traded at the deadline if the team is hovering around .500?
0% chance that Wall or Beal get traded. I'd say 15% chance that Porter gets traded because management is very poor at evaluating talent.
I can't imagine Otto getting traded at the moment. Especially with his no trade clause. Now I could imagine Porter opting out and leaving after 3 seasons.
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prime1time wrote:TGW wrote:Cracks me up how Otto Porter is immune to criticism from some of you...what a joke. Dude plays like a beta wimp all game, getting outplayed by grandpa Dirk and a mediocre Barnes, but other people are the fault.
He makes 100MM now...he's allowed to get blamed for being soft.
And what exactly should we be criticizing him for? He's shooting nearly 57% from the field, 52.5% from 3 and is second in the league in steals. He has his highest PER of his career, leads all sf (and is 5th in the league overall) in adjusted fg percentage. And to top it off he's currently averaging a career high 18 ppg on only 13 shots per game.
If you want to blame Otto fine. But at least do it with intellectual honesty. The Wizards switch everything. So, like a smart team, the Mavericks get the Wizards to switch a smaller defender on Barnes and then he goes to work. Don't hype up Barnes like he was giving it to Otto the whole night...Good teams direct the blame where it belongs. If you don't things won't improve. And what's with the random Nowitzki name drop? He didn't do anything.
If you want to criticize Otto for not being more aggressive, once again we have to ask ourselves if that passes logical muster. The Wizards aren't like most teams. Almost every play that is initiated runs through our pg. So if Wall decides that he wants to post up or attack the hoop instead of giving the ball to Otto how is that Otto's fault? Wall and Brooks call the plays. The only way we can blame Otto for his attempts s if the Wizards were giving him opportunities and he was passing them up. But that obviously has not been the case. The Wizards don't run a free flowing offense where just "decides" it's there turn randomly. Wall decides who's going to get the ball on a certain play. Case in point, Yogi Ferrell started the game guarding Otto and the Wizards only ran one play for him. This is not how good teams function. Blaming Otto for his lack of production tonight would be like blaming a running back for not running for more yards when the Offensive Coordinator only calls pass plays. It's completely non-sensical.
What's clear to me is that far beyond your refusal to fit your criticism of Otto within the context of team that he plays on, you seem to have issues with his personality. At some point he might start to attempt more shots, but I don't think his personality is going to change. And it shouldn't If Otto played for a good coach, they would get him touches. Part of me would love to see Otto on a well functioning team just show that he could showcase what he can actually do. The man is having a career year. If we gave him more touches, he could easily be averaging an EFFICIENT 23-25 ppg (how many players can do that...). The Wizards don't deserve him. You want to talk about his 100MM contract. If the Wizards maximized Otto's ability, he would be underpaid. Take that to the bank. Efficient scorers at high volume are few and far between.
queridiculo wrote:Kanyewest wrote:nate33 wrote:0% chance that Wall or Beal get traded. I'd say 15% chance that Porter gets traded because management is very poor at evaluating talent.
I can't imagine Otto getting traded at the moment. Especially with his no trade clause. Now I could imagine Porter opting out and leaving after 3 seasons.
Sent from my LG-D851 using RealGM mobile app
Otto's trade kicker won't have any since he is already making the max and a bonus can't push him over what his max slot allows him to earn in a given season.
Kanyewest wrote:queridiculo wrote:Kanyewest wrote:I can't imagine Otto getting traded at the moment. Especially with his no trade clause. Now I could imagine Porter opting out and leaving after 3 seasons.
Sent from my LG-D851 using RealGM mobile app
Otto's trade kicker won't have any since he is already making the max and a bonus can't push him over what his max slot allows him to earn in a given season.
I agree the trade kicker won't have an affect. The no trade clause could though.
TGW wrote:prime1time wrote:TGW wrote:Cracks me up how Otto Porter is immune to criticism from some of you...what a joke. Dude plays like a beta wimp all game, getting outplayed by grandpa Dirk and a mediocre Barnes, but other people are the fault.
He makes 100MM now...he's allowed to get blamed for being soft.
And what exactly should we be criticizing him for? He's shooting nearly 57% from the field, 52.5% from 3 and is second in the league in steals. He has his highest PER of his career, leads all sf (and is 5th in the league overall) in adjusted fg percentage. And to top it off he's currently averaging a career high 18 ppg on only 13 shots per game.
If you want to blame Otto fine. But at least do it with intellectual honesty. The Wizards switch everything. So, like a smart team, the Mavericks get the Wizards to switch a smaller defender on Barnes and then he goes to work. Don't hype up Barnes like he was giving it to Otto the whole night...Good teams direct the blame where it belongs. If you don't things won't improve. And what's with the random Nowitzki name drop? He didn't do anything.
If you want to criticize Otto for not being more aggressive, once again we have to ask ourselves if that passes logical muster. The Wizards aren't like most teams. Almost every play that is initiated runs through our pg. So if Wall decides that he wants to post up or attack the hoop instead of giving the ball to Otto how is that Otto's fault? Wall and Brooks call the plays. The only way we can blame Otto for his attempts s if the Wizards were giving him opportunities and he was passing them up. But that obviously has not been the case. The Wizards don't run a free flowing offense where just "decides" it's there turn randomly. Wall decides who's going to get the ball on a certain play. Case in point, Yogi Ferrell started the game guarding Otto and the Wizards only ran one play for him. This is not how good teams function. Blaming Otto for his lack of production tonight would be like blaming a running back for not running for more yards when the Offensive Coordinator only calls pass plays. It's completely non-sensical.
What's clear to me is that far beyond your refusal to fit your criticism of Otto within the context of team that he plays on, you seem to have issues with his personality. At some point he might start to attempt more shots, but I don't think his personality is going to change. And it shouldn't If Otto played for a good coach, they would get him touches. Part of me would love to see Otto on a well functioning team just show that he could showcase what he can actually do. The man is having a career year. If we gave him more touches, he could easily be averaging an EFFICIENT 23-25 ppg (how many players can do that...). The Wizards don't deserve him. You want to talk about his 100MM contract. If the Wizards maximized Otto's ability, he would be underpaid. Take that to the bank. Efficient scorers at high volume are few and far between.
Since you want to talk about logic, let's do it:
-Porter shot 8 times in the game. Oubre managed to shoot more than he did despite less minutes, and Meeks almost outgunned Porter in half the minutes. Morris and Gortat, despite playing 10 and 12 minutes LESS than Otto, managed to put up either more shots than Otto (or more shots per min). I'm not going to even mention Beal. If Otto doesn't want to shoot the damn basketball, that's his fault. Everyone else shot the basketball when they had an opportunity. If that guy wants to crawl into a shell in disappear on the offensive side of the ball, that's his prerogative.
Basketball is a sport where your best players outplay the other team's best players, and that means commanding the ball sometimes. If Porter wants to be the best, he has to act like it. There's absolutely NO EFFING WAY the point guard or the coach is hampering his ability to take double-digit shots in 37 minutes. NONE. 8 shots in 37 minutes is simply unacceptable.
In terms of me personally, Coach Brooks has been tremendous. He’s done a lot with my growth and my approach to the game. He is such a great player’s coach. He gives you confidence on the offensive end, but at the same time, he constantly wants you to improve your game. He’s not afraid to jump on your butt every now and then, and demand more out of you. We’re always all ears whenever he’s talking. Everybody is focused on him and listening, and he has a big impact because he played in the league, and knows the game. It’s easy to relate to him.
He’s really encouraging, too. We played against Cleveland back in early February and lost in OT, and I scored 41 points. Two days later, we won in OT against Brooklyn, and I had 31. Afterward, he used those games as an example for why I needed to stay aggressive.
“Never change your mindset or your approach to the game,” he said. “Whatever you’re doing, keep doing it.”
He made a bet with me at the start of the year that I won’t shoot 20 threes in a game. Like, he actually wants me to shoot 20 or more threes, and if I do, he wins. So that’s just one example of what I mean when I say he believes in us as players.
“We’re trying to loosen up a bit and give him more of a green light,” Popovich said. “He’s getting more license. When you’re a young kid, you’re going to defer to Timmy and Manu and [Tony]. Now it’s like, ‘To heck with those guys. The Big Three, they’re older than dirt. To hell with them. You’re the Big One. You’ve got to go do your deal.’ So, we’re trying to get him to be more demonstrative in that regard.”
Popovich didn’t need to see Leonard become the youngest NBA Finals MVP since Magic Johnson in 1982 last June to be sold on the 23-year-old San Diego State product. But Leonard’s breakout showing during the Spurs’ five-game annihilation of the Heat merely validated Popovich’s belief in the unassuming rising star. The two had an emotional exchange late in Game 3 of the NBA Finals when Leonard scored 29 points and Popovich gave him four tough-love jabs across the chest.
“I said, ‘This is you. This, Kawhi Leonard. You have arrived. This is what I’m talking about. Now you do it over, and over and over again. That’s what the big boys do,” Popovich said of Leonard, who posted 23.7 points on 68.6 percent shooting with 9.3 rebounds and 2.0 blocks in the final three games.
prime1time wrote:TGW wrote:prime1time wrote:And what exactly should we be criticizing him for? He's shooting nearly 57% from the field, 52.5% from 3 and is second in the league in steals. He has his highest PER of his career, leads all sf (and is 5th in the league overall) in adjusted fg percentage. And to top it off he's currently averaging a career high 18 ppg on only 13 shots per game.
If you want to blame Otto fine. But at least do it with intellectual honesty. The Wizards switch everything. So, like a smart team, the Mavericks get the Wizards to switch a smaller defender on Barnes and then he goes to work. Don't hype up Barnes like he was giving it to Otto the whole night...Good teams direct the blame where it belongs. If you don't things won't improve. And what's with the random Nowitzki name drop? He didn't do anything.
If you want to criticize Otto for not being more aggressive, once again we have to ask ourselves if that passes logical muster. The Wizards aren't like most teams. Almost every play that is initiated runs through our pg. So if Wall decides that he wants to post up or attack the hoop instead of giving the ball to Otto how is that Otto's fault? Wall and Brooks call the plays. The only way we can blame Otto for his attempts s if the Wizards were giving him opportunities and he was passing them up. But that obviously has not been the case. The Wizards don't run a free flowing offense where just "decides" it's there turn randomly. Wall decides who's going to get the ball on a certain play. Case in point, Yogi Ferrell started the game guarding Otto and the Wizards only ran one play for him. This is not how good teams function. Blaming Otto for his lack of production tonight would be like blaming a running back for not running for more yards when the Offensive Coordinator only calls pass plays. It's completely non-sensical.
What's clear to me is that far beyond your refusal to fit your criticism of Otto within the context of team that he plays on, you seem to have issues with his personality. At some point he might start to attempt more shots, but I don't think his personality is going to change. And it shouldn't If Otto played for a good coach, they would get him touches. Part of me would love to see Otto on a well functioning team just show that he could showcase what he can actually do. The man is having a career year. If we gave him more touches, he could easily be averaging an EFFICIENT 23-25 ppg (how many players can do that...). The Wizards don't deserve him. You want to talk about his 100MM contract. If the Wizards maximized Otto's ability, he would be underpaid. Take that to the bank. Efficient scorers at high volume are few and far between.
Since you want to talk about logic, let's do it:
-Porter shot 8 times in the game. Oubre managed to shoot more than he did despite less minutes, and Meeks almost outgunned Porter in half the minutes. Morris and Gortat, despite playing 10 and 12 minutes LESS than Otto, managed to put up either more shots than Otto (or more shots per min). I'm not going to even mention Beal. If Otto doesn't want to shoot the damn basketball, that's his fault. Everyone else shot the basketball when they had an opportunity. If that guy wants to crawl into a shell in disappear on the offensive side of the ball, that's his prerogative.
Basketball is a sport where your best players outplay the other team's best players, and that means commanding the ball sometimes. If Porter wants to be the best, he has to act like it. There's absolutely NO EFFING WAY the point guard or the coach is hampering his ability to take double-digit shots in 37 minutes. NONE. 8 shots in 37 minutes is simply unacceptable.
Well at least we are in agreement that Porter should be shooting the ball more. But once again you throw out stats without any critique. So, I'll ask the question that you seemed to side step. Why is it that Meeks almost outguns Porter in half the Minutes? I'll tell you. It's because Brooks loves to run lineups with 5 bench players, and when Meeks is in the game we run him off of screens. Go back and watch the game. We ran more plays for Meeks in the 1st half than we did for Otto. Because we refuse to stagger lineups, we ultimately end up with Porter being in the game with Wall, Beal and Morris/Oubre. It is obvious to me that Otto is a last a thought when it comes to our offensive approach. Beal does his thing. Wall does his thing. And Otto gets the leftovers. The biggest flaw in your argument is this. If Otto is the problem, what do you think would happen if we traded Otto to the Spurs tomorrow? Do you think he'd still only average 13 shots a game, even though he's the same exact player? Look at this post by Beal...In terms of me personally, Coach Brooks has been tremendous. He’s done a lot with my growth and my approach to the game. He is such a great player’s coach. He gives you confidence on the offensive end, but at the same time, he constantly wants you to improve your game. He’s not afraid to jump on your butt every now and then, and demand more out of you. We’re always all ears whenever he’s talking. Everybody is focused on him and listening, and he has a big impact because he played in the league, and knows the game. It’s easy to relate to him.
He’s really encouraging, too. We played against Cleveland back in early February and lost in OT, and I scored 41 points. Two days later, we won in OT against Brooklyn, and I had 31. Afterward, he used those games as an example for why I needed to stay aggressive.
“Never change your mindset or your approach to the game,” he said. “Whatever you’re doing, keep doing it.”
He made a bet with me at the start of the year that I won’t shoot 20 threes in a game. Like, he actually wants me to shoot 20 or more threes, and if I do, he wins. So that’s just one example of what I mean when I say he believes in us as players.
Do you think Brooks tells Otto the same thing? The reality of Otto's struggles to get more shot attempts is this. This team painted Otto into the role of a 3 and D guy and now they are unable to see him any differently. You talk about shot attempts like they aren't a fixed number. For Otto to get more shots, someone has to take less. And if we are going to continue to run lineups with 5 bench players, that means that Otto's shots are going to have to come from Beal, Wall, Morris and Gortat. Morris and Gortat are like Porter. They rarely ever get plays run for them. Beal is efficient so it would silly to take shots from him. Which leaves us with John Wall. The team would be better if Wall gave up even half of his crazy drives, half of his pull up jumpers and the vast majority of his pull up 3 point attempts and gave them to Otto. But if that happened Wall probably wouldn't average 20 ppg. So the real issue is this. Who will tell Wall, the pg who touches the ball every play and initiates the offense, that he should defer to Porter.
If I genuinely believed that Otto's lack of aggressiveness was the main reason why he didn't get shot attempts I'd be right there with you. But until I see an organizational push for Otto to be more aggressive I'll will have to disagree with you. Look at what happened with Pop and Kawhi...
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/gregg-popovich-to-kawhi-leonard-to-hell-with-the-big-3-youre-the-big-1/“We’re trying to loosen up a bit and give him more of a green light,” Popovich said. “He’s getting more license. When you’re a young kid, you’re going to defer to Timmy and Manu and [Tony]. Now it’s like, ‘To heck with those guys. The Big Three, they’re older than dirt. To hell with them. You’re the Big One. You’ve got to go do your deal.’ So, we’re trying to get him to be more demonstrative in that regard.”
Popovich didn’t need to see Leonard become the youngest NBA Finals MVP since Magic Johnson in 1982 last June to be sold on the 23-year-old San Diego State product. But Leonard’s breakout showing during the Spurs’ five-game annihilation of the Heat merely validated Popovich’s belief in the unassuming rising star. The two had an emotional exchange late in Game 3 of the NBA Finals when Leonard scored 29 points and Popovich gave him four tough-love jabs across the chest.
“I said, ‘This is you. This, Kawhi Leonard. You have arrived. This is what I’m talking about. Now you do it over, and over and over again. That’s what the big boys do,” Popovich said of Leonard, who posted 23.7 points on 68.6 percent shooting with 9.3 rebounds and 2.0 blocks in the final three games.
zero2hero wrote:prime1time wrote:TGW wrote:
Since you want to talk about logic, let's do it:
-Porter shot 8 times in the game. Oubre managed to shoot more than he did despite less minutes, and Meeks almost outgunned Porter in half the minutes. Morris and Gortat, despite playing 10 and 12 minutes LESS than Otto, managed to put up either more shots than Otto (or more shots per min). I'm not going to even mention Beal. If Otto doesn't want to shoot the damn basketball, that's his fault. Everyone else shot the basketball when they had an opportunity. If that guy wants to crawl into a shell in disappear on the offensive side of the ball, that's his prerogative.
Basketball is a sport where your best players outplay the other team's best players, and that means commanding the ball sometimes. If Porter wants to be the best, he has to act like it. There's absolutely NO EFFING WAY the point guard or the coach is hampering his ability to take double-digit shots in 37 minutes. NONE. 8 shots in 37 minutes is simply unacceptable.
Well at least we are in agreement that Porter should be shooting the ball more. But once again you throw out stats without any critique. So, I'll ask the question that you seemed to side step. Why is it that Meeks almost outguns Porter in half the Minutes? I'll tell you. It's because Brooks loves to run lineups with 5 bench players, and when Meeks is in the game we run him off of screens. Go back and watch the game. We ran more plays for Meeks in the 1st half than we did for Otto. Because we refuse to stagger lineups, we ultimately end up with Porter being in the game with Wall, Beal and Morris/Oubre. It is obvious to me that Otto is a last a thought when it comes to our offensive approach. Beal does his thing. Wall does his thing. And Otto gets the leftovers. The biggest flaw in your argument is this. If Otto is the problem, what do you think would happen if we traded Otto to the Spurs tomorrow? Do you think he'd still only average 13 shots a game, even though he's the same exact player? Look at this post by Beal...In terms of me personally, Coach Brooks has been tremendous. He’s done a lot with my growth and my approach to the game. He is such a great player’s coach. He gives you confidence on the offensive end, but at the same time, he constantly wants you to improve your game. He’s not afraid to jump on your butt every now and then, and demand more out of you. We’re always all ears whenever he’s talking. Everybody is focused on him and listening, and he has a big impact because he played in the league, and knows the game. It’s easy to relate to him.
He’s really encouraging, too. We played against Cleveland back in early February and lost in OT, and I scored 41 points. Two days later, we won in OT against Brooklyn, and I had 31. Afterward, he used those games as an example for why I needed to stay aggressive.
“Never change your mindset or your approach to the game,” he said. “Whatever you’re doing, keep doing it.”
He made a bet with me at the start of the year that I won’t shoot 20 threes in a game. Like, he actually wants me to shoot 20 or more threes, and if I do, he wins. So that’s just one example of what I mean when I say he believes in us as players.
Do you think Brooks tells Otto the same thing? The reality of Otto's struggles to get more shot attempts is this. This team painted Otto into the role of a 3 and D guy and now they are unable to see him any differently. You talk about shot attempts like they aren't a fixed number. For Otto to get more shots, someone has to take less. And if we are going to continue to run lineups with 5 bench players, that means that Otto's shots are going to have to come from Beal, Wall, Morris and Gortat. Morris and Gortat are like Porter. They rarely ever get plays run for them. Beal is efficient so it would silly to take shots from him. Which leaves us with John Wall. The team would be better if Wall gave up even half of his crazy drives, half of his pull up jumpers and the vast majority of his pull up 3 point attempts and gave them to Otto. But if that happened Wall probably wouldn't average 20 ppg. So the real issue is this. Who will tell Wall, the pg who touches the ball every play and initiates the offense, that he should defer to Porter.
If I genuinely believed that Otto's lack of aggressiveness was the main reason why he didn't get shot attempts I'd be right there with you. But until I see an organizational push for Otto to be more aggressive I'll will have to disagree with you. Look at what happened with Pop and Kawhi...
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/gregg-popovich-to-kawhi-leonard-to-hell-with-the-big-3-youre-the-big-1/“We’re trying to loosen up a bit and give him more of a green light,” Popovich said. “He’s getting more license. When you’re a young kid, you’re going to defer to Timmy and Manu and [Tony]. Now it’s like, ‘To heck with those guys. The Big Three, they’re older than dirt. To hell with them. You’re the Big One. You’ve got to go do your deal.’ So, we’re trying to get him to be more demonstrative in that regard.”
Popovich didn’t need to see Leonard become the youngest NBA Finals MVP since Magic Johnson in 1982 last June to be sold on the 23-year-old San Diego State product. But Leonard’s breakout showing during the Spurs’ five-game annihilation of the Heat merely validated Popovich’s belief in the unassuming rising star. The two had an emotional exchange late in Game 3 of the NBA Finals when Leonard scored 29 points and Popovich gave him four tough-love jabs across the chest.
“I said, ‘This is you. This, Kawhi Leonard. You have arrived. This is what I’m talking about. Now you do it over, and over and over again. That’s what the big boys do,” Popovich said of Leonard, who posted 23.7 points on 68.6 percent shooting with 9.3 rebounds and 2.0 blocks in the final three games.
I'm in agreement that the coaching staff is mostly to blame for not utilizing Otto more. However, the fact remains is that we don't know what goes on behind the scenes. Just as you're speculating that we've "typecasted" Otto into a strictly 3&D role, we can just as easily speculate he hasn't been aggressive in practice to warrant the coaching staff seeing him as anything more than a guy who only is really comfortable playing off others. I don't like a lot of things Brooks does but I don't think he's a dumb coach. Brooks' speciality is player development and I don't believe he'd just turn a blind eye willingly to a blossoming hyper efficient machine.