Mahinmi, not Horford

[pcbothwel]

Sorry Closg, not buying it. That poll clearly does not have Noel as a legit option as everyone thought he wouldnt be available. I just showed you a string of messages in just an hour time frame from when the draft started and people were begging for Noel.

There were also people calling for Otto Porter, but you didn't show that string of messages did you? Why?

You want to qualify yourself to comment on the subject, tell us who you were calling for? I was calling for Otto Porter; were you?

Re Kelly: Im not sure of your point about his draft position. We had a legit SF prospect in Otto, and not only did we double up by drafting Oubre, but we moved up to get him. That means our FO saw something and went after it.

Yes, he gets credit for the Oubre move, pcbothwei. Though it might be worth mentioning that -- much as I love the kid's play -- it's a little early to congratulate him (or Ernie) on his success. Yet, even if he doesn't succeed (tho I think he will) it was still a good move. Just as I don't criticize Ernie's pick of Seraphin -- you can make the right move & have it not work out. It's Ernie's repeated penchant for the wrong move for which he gets raked across the coals.

So yeah, re Oubre, he getts credit. Thing is, pcbothwei, how many times do you want to give him that credit? Would you like to stack anything against it?

How about just a couple of ridiculously bad examples? We can start that stack with Jan Vesely, Chris Singleton & Shelvin Mack instead of, oh... lets say 3 of Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, Kenneth Faried, Tobias Harris, Chandler Parsons, Nikola Vucevic, Reggie Jackson, Cory Joseph, Jon Leuer, Isaiah Thomas & a couple of others?

Does that reach you? If not, how about throwing away a high R2 pick to dump Vesely? Do you even remember that?

Or how about Tomas Satoransky instead of Draymond Green or Jae Crowder or Khris Middleton or even Kyle O'Quinn? & how about p#ssing away yet another R2 pick that year w/ which we also could have gotten O'Quinn? I'm betting you aren't even conscious that happened. Are you?

& if you don't really remember what went down all those years, maybe you aren't the guy to blow Ernie's horn? Even if only to give him a still crappy C+ grade. Which he hasn't earned.

I think you are missing the point. I said EG is basically a C level GM. Now you can argue with that, but to say its essentially laughable and not worth responding to as DANNYLANDOVER did then I'll call you out.
You just outlined a series of moves he made that have put this organization in a competitive tier.
So when you argue that EG has made some TERRIBLE moves which limit his ceiling, I would agree with you. But I would counter and say he has made some very good moves that give him a floor.
Anyone calling him an A or F level GM are being emotional. He is somewhere between D and B- and I choose C+... I dont think its that crazy.

You want to qualify yourself to comment on the subject, tell us who you were calling for? I was calling for Otto Porter; were you?

Again, I think you missed the point. Im not arguing that I wanted Otto and others didnt. Im arguing that many legit, well-informed posters on here were very much in favor of Noel/Len/Zeller/trade down and even those who finally settled on Otto did so somewhat hesitantly.
Calling it an easy pick now is ludicrous.

[tontoz]

The primary reason this is a winning team right now is getting 3 top 3 picks in quick succession, which we got through a.combination of luck and unintentional tanking.

[Kanyewest]

The primary reason this is a winning team right now is getting 3 top 3 picks in quick succession, which we got through a.combination of luck and unintentional tanking.

I would say that the Wizards are great at tanking. Not so much before the season starts but moreso midseason when the Wizards have already failed to meet expectations. In 2008-09, firing Eddie Jordan and hiring Ed Tappscott. 2009-10, turning in Gilbert to the authorities (man that was dirty), trading Butler, Jamison, and Haywood (although the Wizards were playing well up until Josh Howard got injured). 2010-12, the Wizards were actively tanking. 2012-13, the Wizards lost their last 6 games to some bad opponents including a Miami team that didn't play LeBron, Wade, or Bosh.

[payitforward]

Sorry Closg, not buying it. That poll clearly does not have Noel as a legit option as everyone thought he wouldnt be available. I just showed you a string of messages in just an hour time frame from when the draft started and people were begging for Noel.

There were also people calling for Otto Porter, but you didn't show that string of messages did you? Why?

You want to qualify yourself to comment on the subject, tell us who you were calling for? I was calling for Otto Porter; were you?

Re Kelly: Im not sure of your point about his draft position. We had a legit SF prospect in Otto, and not only did we double up by drafting Oubre, but we moved up to get him. That means our FO saw something and went after it.

Yes, he gets credit for the Oubre move, pcbothwei. Though it might be worth mentioning that -- much as I love the kid's play -- it's a little early to congratulate him (or Ernie) on his success. Yet, even if he doesn't succeed (tho I think he will) it was still a good move. Just as I don't criticize Ernie's pick of Seraphin -- you can make the right move & have it not work out. It's Ernie's repeated penchant for the wrong move for which he gets raked across the coals.

So yeah, re Oubre, he getts credit. Thing is, pcbothwei, how many times do you want to give him that credit? Would you like to stack anything against it?

How about just a couple of ridiculously bad examples? We can start that stack with Jan Vesely, Chris Singleton & Shelvin Mack instead of, oh... lets say 3 of Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, Kenneth Faried, Tobias Harris, Chandler Parsons, Nikola Vucevic, Reggie Jackson, Cory Joseph, Jon Leuer, Isaiah Thomas & a couple of others?

Does that reach you? If not, how about throwing away a high R2 pick to dump Vesely? Do you even remember that?

Or how about Tomas Satoransky instead of Draymond Green or Jae Crowder or Khris Middleton or even Kyle O'Quinn? & how about p#ssing away yet another R2 pick that year w/ which we also could have gotten O'Quinn? I'm betting you aren't even conscious that happened. Are you?

& if you don't really remember what went down all those years, maybe you aren't the guy to blow Ernie's horn? Even if only to give him a still crappy C+ grade. Which he hasn't earned.

I got a little too exercised, writing the above post -- I apologize to pcbothwei for the excessively combative tone.

I wish I could find enough generosity in my heart to give Ernie a C+. It would be more sensible of me to admire you for being able to find it in your heart. (But I still can't get there!)

[payitforward]

Sorry Closg, not buying it. That poll clearly does not have Noel as a legit option as everyone thought he wouldnt be available. I just showed you a string of messages in just an hour time frame from when the draft started and people were begging for Noel.

There were also people calling for Otto Porter, but you didn't show that string of messages did you? Why?

You want to qualify yourself to comment on the subject, tell us who you were calling for? I was calling for Otto Porter; were you?

Re Kelly: Im not sure of your point about his draft position. We had a legit SF prospect in Otto, and not only did we double up by drafting Oubre, but we moved up to get him. That means our FO saw something and went after it.

Yes, he gets credit for the Oubre move, pcbothwei. Though it might be worth mentioning that -- much as I love the kid's play -- it's a little early to congratulate him (or Ernie) on his success. Yet, even if he doesn't succeed (tho I think he will) it was still a good move. Just as I don't criticize Ernie's pick of Seraphin -- you can make the right move & have it not work out. It's Ernie's repeated penchant for the wrong move for which he gets raked across the coals.

So yeah, re Oubre, he getts credit. Thing is, pcbothwei, how many times do you want to give him that credit? Would you like to stack anything against it?

How about just a couple of ridiculously bad examples? We can start that stack with Jan Vesely, Chris Singleton & Shelvin Mack instead of, oh... lets say 3 of Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, Kenneth Faried, Tobias Harris, Chandler Parsons, Nikola Vucevic, Reggie Jackson, Cory Joseph, Jon Leuer, Isaiah Thomas & a couple of others?

Does that reach you? If not, how about throwing away a high R2 pick to dump Vesely? Do you even remember that?

Or how about Tomas Satoransky instead of Draymond Green or Jae Crowder or Khris Middleton or even Kyle O'Quinn? & how about p#ssing away yet another R2 pick that year w/ which we also could have gotten O'Quinn? I'm betting you aren't even conscious that happened. Are you?

& if you don't really remember what went down all those years, maybe you aren't the guy to blow Ernie's horn? Even if only to give him a still crappy C+ grade. Which he hasn't earned.

I think you are missing the point. I said EG is basically a C level GM. Now you can argue with that, but to say its essentially laughable and not worth responding to as DANNYLANDOVER did then I'll call you out.
You just outlined a series of moves he made that have put this organization in a competitive tier.
So when you argue that EG has made some TERRIBLE moves which limit his ceiling, I would agree with you. But I would counter and say he has made some very good moves that give him a floor.
Anyone calling him an A or F level GM are being emotional. He is somewhere between D and B- and I choose C+... I dont think its that crazy.

You want to qualify yourself to comment on the subject, tell us who you were calling for? I was calling for Otto Porter; were you?

Again, I think you missed the point. Im not arguing that I wanted Otto and others didnt. Im arguing that many legit, well-informed posters on here were very much in favor of Noel/Len/Zeller/trade down and even those who finally settled on Otto did so somewhat hesitantly.
Calling it an easy pick now is ludicrous.

Mostly, in the above, you are right -- & before seeing your response I'd apologized for the tone of what I wrote.

Whether it's laughable to call Ernie a C level GM depends in part on how many times one has cringed as he was on the edge of some decision & then watched him do something that seemed idiotic & which proceeded to turn out that way along just the lines that made it seem likely it would. It's been too many times in my case to be able to take seriously the idea that he is an average GM -- which is what I take "C level" to mean (by definition).

OTOH, the word "ludicrous" is a synonym for "laughable." Hence you are, as it were, a pot calling the kettle black, no? I thought that taking Otto over Noel was "an easy pick" -- largely b/c Noel was injured. Seemed a no-brainer to me. Are you taking his injury into account? I see nothing to indicate that you are. But I don't think the decision to pick Porter over him can begin to be assessed w/o thinking about Noel's injury.

Now... had Noel not been injured, the decision between him & Porter would have required a lot more thought. OTOH, had he not been injured Cleveland might not have pulled the trigger on Bennett; they might have taken him. Assuming Oladipo then went second, once again I would have found it an easy decision -- this time between Porter & Bennett. I didn't much like Bennett's game.

Aside from the weight of Noel's injury in the decision, I think there is something else you are not getting, maybe even choosing to ignore -- & I don't know why -- in my comments and dannyl's: picking #1 or #3 is a lot easier than picking say #15. There are simply more good players to choose from up there than further down.

That's why we applaud SA's front office, for example. They get good guys repeatedly picking right at the end of R1, now that is the kind of thing that a GM should get credit for.

& that's why I am eager to give Ernie credit for the move to nab Oubre. I felt the same way about the move he made in 2010 to get Booker. To me, that move was a lot more impressive than picking Wall! Similarly, trading up to pick Oubre was a lot more impressive than picking Beal & Porter #3 the two previous years.

Unfortunately, that's as good as it gets in the last ten drafts -- ten drafts!! E.g. of the 8 guys taken right after Ernie drafted in 2008, at least six of them have had way better careers than JaVale.

In fact, 4 of the first 6 guys taken in R2 that year have had way better careers than JaVale. H#ll, 4 of the next 5 Centers picked after JaVale McGee in that draft have had way way way better careers than JaVale! That would be Kosta Koufos (23), Nikola Pekovic (31),DeAndre Jordan (35), & Omer Asik (36). You could add Serge Ibaka (24) if you wanted to cheat a little & call him a pure Center.

In other words, in 2008, playing pin the tail on the donkey w/ the names of all Center prospects available when he chose at 18 would have been almost certain to get him a better player than using his "skills."

Should we go on to discuss 2009? 2011? R2 of 2012? Why exactly do you want to grade this conceited time-server w/ a C+.

He does have one outstanding skill, btw -- he is a genius at managing his boss!