Is Mudiay outplaying Murray?

[Mac1958]

I wasn't a Mudiay fan coming into the season, and I'm still far from sold, but is he outplaying Murray overall?

The fact that it's close is just as much an indication that Murray hasn't been playing terribly well as much as it is that Mudiay has improved significantly, but...
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[skywalker33]

So far this year, I'd say yes. However you have to remember that Mudiay is coming off the bench, Murray playing against starters. Also, this is Mudiay's third year of playing in the league, where most young PG's figure it out. I also believe Murray is trying to figure out his role within this offense, playing off Jokic as a PG isn't easy.

But I ,for one, am happy to see Mudiay's success, I think both of our young PG will grow into an extremely good combo.

[MHZ]

I think the bench role is actually a better one for these guys to have freedom to go play and work through mistakes.

The starter defers a lot to Jokic/Millsap, so while it's great to be out there with those guys, you're also not playing quite as freely because those two are the priority. I think the setup is good. You don't make a change this early in the year, especially if it's working.

[TunaFish]

Mudiay has been outplaying Murray, so far. Murray has not been as effective on offense which seems odd. Mudiay has certain talents that can't be ignored but so does Murray. It is early in the season and they are both very young.

Still, Murray has to shoot better! He is too good of a shot to be this off.

[NuggetsWY]

I'll agree with Skywalker & Rebel in that playing off the bench is a little easier for young PGs but the statistical difference between these two is not that great.

Statistically, Mudiay seems to be playing better almost across the board although his turnover-rate is a little worse than Murray's (2nd on the Nuggets to Plumlee). Mudiay also has a higher usage-rate but not significantly higher.

It seems to me that Murray fits better with the starters and Mudiay seems to work well with Barton, who tends to play "lead guard" a lot. So, "Is Mudiay outplaying Murray?" Hard to say because "starter vs bench" and who they play with, etc. There just isn't much of a difference between the two IMO.

I'd be happy if they spent 10 more years with the Nuggets and we were still debating which is better, without coming up with a definitive answer - regardless of which one is starting.

[skywalker33]

Mudiay is shooting 43% from 2pt range and a very impressive 48% from 3pt. His turnovers are still a problem.

[THE J0KER]

Murray in 13 matches so far has 13.3 PPG despite never scored between 10-15 points, and just once between 10-19!?
His points from worst to best so far are: 2-3-4-6-8-9-9---16---20-24-26-32
He is what he is - a probably future all-star player, but just 20y old.

Mudiay is also young, but he playing his third season and he is a way much more consistent player this season so far. He averaging similar 12.2 PPG but in this case 8 out of 13 coming from expected 12-16 tiny pts margin:
2-2-8-10---12-12-15-15-15-15-16-16---21

So yes, Mudiay so far this season is more trustful with more good matches, and as more talented, Murray has more amazing matches.
Thanks to Murray we have these bizarre 2017-18 stats in this "H2H": Mudiay vs Murray in 10+ double-digit matches is 10-5 so far in Mudiay favor, but when we talking about 20+ matches, Murray led 4-1!

And let's be honest tonight when Murray achieve career-high 32 pts. It is not just coincidence that he does it when Harris is out:
MurraySG > MurrayPG

[NuggetsWY]

I've been saying and saying and saying "Play the young guys" and look what happens. Mudiay is starting to show his true value. Murray is just beginning to show his true value.

As for Murray = SG - - - don't buy into it. The new NBA does not make that designation. Defense is the biggest part of PG today, especially on the Nuggets. Who's quicker? Who is going to be better at covering John Wall & Steph Curry & Russell Westbrook? Murray! He's a PG in the modern NBA. But let's just play our best guards.

Barton is a little different from our other four guards and let's say he walks after this year. We have Harris, Beasley, Murray, Mudiay - all about the same height, all roughly similar skills and speed. They seem somewhat interchangeable --- notice I used "somewhat" & "roughly" so no hating.

[NuggetsWY]

Isn't it interesting how people want to blast at Mudiay and/or Murray - "shouldn't even be playing" or "trade him" - yet those people aren't complaining about how useless Harris is when the team plays a fantastic game when he sits out.

Don't hate; I consider Harris our second best player. I'm just pointing out how different he is treated even though he is roughly the same age. There are two differences between him and the PG pair. 1) He has never been called "PG". 2) He has gotten more playing time.

[Alatan]

Murray has not impressed me with his PG skills but we dont really need a classic PG. We need a new age combo guard that is a good scorer to play of Jokic and Millsap. It would be great if Murray developed more as a PG since it would be a waste to just play him as a scorer of the bench. I dont doubt that Murray can develop basic PG skills since the league is full of guys that are not really PGs but scoring guards that know to run the PnR and hit the open man.

As for Mudiay, he improved significantly but is still turnover prone and a bad finisher at the rim. I have reserves about his shooting once he starts to get contested more but i would not trade him as easily as i would a weak ago. For now i want to see how much can he improve. He may even become a good PG in this league but i'l not hold my breath.

[NuggetsWY]

Murray has not impressed me with his PG skills but we dont really need a classic PG. We need a new age combo guard that is a good scorer to play of Jokic and Millsap. It would be great if Murray developed more as a PG since it would be a waste to just play him as a scorer of the bench. I dont doubt that Murray can develop basic PG skills since the league is full of guys that are not really PGs but scoring guards that know to run the PnR and hit the open man.

As for Mudiay, he improved significantly but is still turnover prone and a bad finisher at the rim. I have reserves about his shooting once he starts to get contested more but i would not trade him as easily as i would a weak ago. For now i want to see how much can he improve. He may even become a good PG in this league but i'l not hold my breath.

Uh, yeah, nice analysis except for the PnR thing. Malone doesn't like PnR offense. Any time the Nuggets are running it is on them, it's not a basic part of the offense. Just compare the number of PnR plays compared to other teams. (((Watch the Nuggets' defense on PnR also, our guards virtually always trail over the top. Being that predictable is not a good thing. NBA players are too smart to not adjust to that.

[Revived]

I'll agree with Skywalker & Rebel in that playing off the bench is a little easier for young PGs but the statistical difference between these two is not that great.

Statistically, Mudiay seems to be playing better almost across the board although his turnover-rate is a little worse than Murray's (2nd on the Nuggets to Plumlee). Mudiay also has a higher usage-rate but not significantly higher.

It seems to me that Murray fits better with the starters and Mudiay seems to work well with Barton, who tends to play "lead guard" a lot. So, "Is Mudiay outplaying Murray?" Hard to say because "starter vs bench" and who they play with, etc. There just isn't much of a difference between the two IMO.

I'd be happy if they spent 10 more years with the Nuggets and we were still debating which is better, without coming up with a definitive answer - regardless of which one is starting.

I'd be surprised if Nuggets can afford both Mudiay and Murray for the next 10 years, that's a lot of money to invest in two PGs. Seldom does it work, (think Portland) it mostly ends up like Phoenix when they had Dragic/Bledsoe/IT.

[NuggetsWY]

I'll agree with Skywalker & Rebel in that playing off the bench is a little easier for young PGs but the statistical difference between these two is not that great.

Statistically, Mudiay seems to be playing better almost across the board although his turnover-rate is a little worse than Murray's (2nd on the Nuggets to Plumlee). Mudiay also has a higher usage-rate but not significantly higher.

It seems to me that Murray fits better with the starters and Mudiay seems to work well with Barton, who tends to play "lead guard" a lot. So, "Is Mudiay outplaying Murray?" Hard to say because "starter vs bench" and who they play with, etc. There just isn't much of a difference between the two IMO.

I'd be happy if they spent 10 more years with the Nuggets and we were still debating which is better, without coming up with a definitive answer - regardless of which one is starting.

I'd be surprised if Nuggets can afford both Mudiay and Murray for the next 10 years, that's a lot of money to invest in two PGs. Seldom does it work, (think Portland) it mostly ends up like Phoenix when they had Dragic/Bledsoe/IT.

Then again, both can play SG to some degree. With Harris, Murray, Mudiay all roughly the same height - that would be a nice combination of guards and with injuries and such, you almost have to have 3 starting quality guards in today's NBA.

[U hova]

I don't really trust Mudiay to keep shooting high %s on jumpers but the real improvement is that he has so much more control over his drives. His layups are less flinging the ball near the board and more gentle. And controlling his pace has made it a lot easier to make use of his passing. I still don't really get how he changed overnight but its happened and I'm pretty confident it's here to stay.
I don't think Murray will still be in the low 30s behind the arc by February, and I think Hastings pointed out yesterday that he tweaked his ankle during the Miami game which would explain his recent play. But with that said, Mudiay's play has eclipsed what I've been expecting out of Murray, and what I expected out of Murray has obviously been more than what he's been so far.

Both guys are flexible at the guard position imo (Murray + Harris, Murray + Mudiay, Mudiay + Harris are all feasible), if we can lock the three down that'd be a guard core other teams would envy.
I'm just hoping the front office doesn't package one with a 1st for the pointguard equivalent of Plumlee.

Also I dunno if it's Malone or the players just not caring but I'm definitely seeing a lot more pick and rolls from this team.

[skywalker33]

I'll agree with Skywalker & Rebel in that playing off the bench is a little easier for young PGs but the statistical difference between these two is not that great.

Statistically, Mudiay seems to be playing better almost across the board although his turnover-rate is a little worse than Murray's (2nd on the Nuggets to Plumlee). Mudiay also has a higher usage-rate but not significantly higher.

It seems to me that Murray fits better with the starters and Mudiay seems to work well with Barton, who tends to play "lead guard" a lot. So, "Is Mudiay outplaying Murray?" Hard to say because "starter vs bench" and who they play with, etc. There just isn't much of a difference between the two IMO.

I'd be happy if they spent 10 more years with the Nuggets and we were still debating which is better, without coming up with a definitive answer - regardless of which one is starting.

I'd be surprised if Nuggets can afford both Mudiay and Murray for the next 10 years, that's a lot of money to invest in two PGs. Seldom does it work, (think Portland) it mostly ends up like Phoenix when they had Dragic/Bledsoe/IT.

While I really like Mudiay, not sure will get anywhere close to what CJ is making (presuming Jamal starts producing like Dame). I could envision Mudiay signing in the $9-12M range (although I said the same thing about Plumlee ???? ) as he appears comfortable in the backup role. Also, if he continues to improve along with Murray, wouldn't be surprised to see one of them moved for assets as I also have high hopes for Monte Morris.

[skywalker33]

Gotta wonder if this is purely a sophomore slump from Murray or what ??? I expected to see him come out playing much better w/o the hernias but he seems much like he did last year. Know most players take that next step between 2nd & 3rd year like Mudiay has, but he looked like the type of guy to have a breakout THIS year.

[NuggetsWY]

Gotta wonder if this is purely a sophomore slump from Murray or what ??? I expected to see him come out playing much better w/o the hernias but he seems much like he did last year. Know most players take that next step between 2nd & 3rd year like Mudiay has, but he looked like the type of guy to have a breakout THIS year.

So true and you know that I thought he could play more minutes last year and perhaps that would have helped but who knows. I'm wondering if he's struggling a little for the same reason Chandler became frustrated last year - lack of understanding regarding his role. He's the starting PG but plays fewer minutes than two bench guards plus when Barton is playing, he's not the PG and even when Harris is the other guard, the PG doesn't really run the offense.

Jokic is our center and his only backup also plays PF.
All of our forwards (except Barton), are more-or-less PFs, even Chandler.
We have five guards and they basically all play the same position.

Center
Forward
Forward
Guard
Guard

If Murray wraps his head around that, I think he'll do better. IMO, he should probably emulate Harris.

[Revived]

I think not trading Murray plus protected 1st for Kyrie is gonna look bad. Kyrie is like the perfect ideal fit next to Jokic.

[skywalker33]

I think not trading Murray plus protected 1st for Kyrie is gonna look bad. Kyrie is like the perfect ideal fit next to Jokic.

Not sure about that, Kyrie wants to be THE MAN which we already have in DEN. Kyrie is also a ball dominant PG which again would take the ball out of Jokic;s hands as well. Murray on the other hand is used to playing off the ball with Jokic, not saying Kyrie can't do that but we're looking at the long-term, not short-term. How do you think Kyrie and Gordon would look had he not gotten injured ? Would Kyrie still be putting up 20ppg ?? I'd say his scoring would drop down to 17-18ppg, still good but would he be comfortable being the 2nd option...AGAIN ?

[TunaFish]

I think not trading Murray plus protected 1st for Kyrie is gonna look bad. Kyrie is like the perfect ideal fit next to Jokic.

Doesn't look that way today. Looks like both Murray and Mudiay are young stars in the making.