Better All Around Player: Tim Duncan vs Hakeem Olajuwon

[Magic Giannison]

Damn, this is really tough choice for me....

[mischievous]

I don't differentiate "all-around" from just better

I don’t get the difference either.

Draymond is better all around than KD but KD is the better player.

I think people are confusing "all around" with "well rounded".

[letskissbro]

Lotta Hakeem fans in here I guess.

The answer is Duncan. The Spurs' incredibly slow pace skews box score stats into Hakeem's favor but the two were very similar peak wise. Duncan's longevity and passing is what gives him the edge.

[DidUSaySometing]

Going through the stats, they’re both pretty similar players w/ PER, longevity, etc. Yeah TD has 3 more titles but no MJ to battle. I’d have to say they’re 50/50. But aesthetically speaking, Hakeem’s footwork was so damn smooth, and his blocks were straight-up filthy

duncan battled shaq

[DidUSaySometing]

And you forgot about Gregg Popovich.

How many rings do you think Duncan would've won with Rudy Tomjanovich as his head coach? I'd guess 0.

The dude put up a damn near quad double in a Finals closing game. Imagine his stats under a coach that didn't minimize his stats to maximize the team success?

Newsflash: Pop is considered the greatest coach of all time. Duncan is not considered the greatest player of all time. Duncan is not even consistently listed in the top 10.

Here San Antonio is in the post Duncan era and they're STILL winning 60+ games.

The story of Spurs rings has less to do with Duncan and more to do with the GOAT coach in Pop.

bulls were winning 50+ w/o prime Jordan. duncan was carrying glorified role players like parker to championships. manu was a good player but duncan never played with a top 10 player in his prime like jordan did

[Pennebaker]

The dude put up a damn near quad double in a Finals closing game. Imagine his stats under a coach that didn't minimize his stats to maximize the team success?

Newsflash: Pop is considered the greatest coach of all time. Duncan is not considered the greatest player of all time. Duncan is not even consistently listed in the top 10.

Here San Antonio is in the post Duncan era and they're STILL winning 60+ games.

The story of Spurs rings has less to do with Duncan and more to do with the GOAT coach in Pop.

bulls were winning 50+ w/o prime Jordan. duncan was carrying glorified role players like parker to championships. manu was a good player but duncan never played with a top 10 player in his prime like jordan did

Phil Jackson was a pretty good coach too. 11 rings and all that. But like I said, Pop is winning 60+ games without Duncan.

And 50 wins is really nothing. Pretenders win 50 games all the time.

And if Duncan was carrying "glorified role players like Parker" then why did Parker win Finals MVP over Duncan in 2007? Parker is a 6x all-star, 4x all-nba and a Hall of Famer. Ginobili (2x all-star, 2x all-nba) will also make the Hall of Fame.

Btw, Duncan has 5 rings but only 3 Finals MVPs (Jordan has 6 rings and 6 Finals MVPs).

After 2005 Duncan really wasn't carrying his teams like you thought he was.

[Pennebaker]

Lotta Hakeem fans in here I guess.

The answer is Duncan. The Spurs' incredibly slow pace skews box score stats into Hakeem's favor but the two were very similar peak wise. Duncan's longevity and passing is what gives him the edge.

There are a lot of Hakeem fans everywhere.

The Rockets weren't fast paced either and besides advanced stats account for pace.

Hakeem gets the edge because he was better offensively and defensively. He was simply more naturally gifted at both ends of the floor. It is really that simple. When Olajuwan retired he finished top 10 in scoring, blocks, rebounds and steals - the only player to retire top 10 in those 4 categories.

He is still the all-time leader in blocks by a wide margin.

Not only is he the only center in the top 10 in career steals, he's the only center in the top 20 in steals.

Hakeem is still the only player in history to win MVP, Defensive Player of the Year & Finals MVP in the same season.

Olajuwan recorded more triple doubles than Duncan. More quadruple doubles. He is the only player in history to record 200 blocks and 200 steals in a season. Duncan's career high in steals is 70.

Duncan's career high in blocks is 237. Hakeem's is 376.

We can see clearly now why Olajuwan had 2 DPOY awards to Duncan's 0.

Olajuwan was also a more natural scorer.

Passing wise they were very similar. Remember that Olajuwan was a good passing center too. His career high in assists is higher than Duncan's, in any case (12 to 11).

So the guy was a beast on a level that Tim Duncan never knew.

Look, players are going to go to Hakeem to learn the post from now until he can't move anymore. Nobody is going to pay Tim Duncan to teach them his rigid moves.

[JulesWinnfield]

You can make an argument for either player, but any argument that centers around “5 vs 2” is just plain stupid. Im constantly discouraged by how many fans are that simple in 2017. Realgm is at least better about this than most (especially the pc board) but isn’t insulated from this primitive, shallow analysis either

[dhsilv2]

Lotta Hakeem fans in here I guess.

The answer is Duncan. The Spurs' incredibly slow pace skews box score stats into Hakeem's favor but the two were very similar peak wise. Duncan's longevity and passing is what gives him the edge.

There are a lot of Hakeem fans everywhere.

The Rockets weren't fast paced either and besides advanced stats account for pace.

Hakeem gets the edge because he was better offensively and defensively. He was simply more naturally gifted at both ends of the floor. It is really that simple. When Olajuwan retired he finished top 10 in scoring, blocks, rebounds and steals - the only player to retire top 10 in those 4 categories.

He is still the all-time leader in blocks by a wide margin.

Not only is he the only center in the top 10 in career steals, he's the only center in the top 20 in steals.

Hakeem is still the only player in history to win MVP, Defensive Player of the Year & Finals MVP in the same season.

Olajuwan recorded more triple doubles than Duncan. More quadruple doubles. He is the only player in history to record 200 blocks and 200 steals in a season. Duncan's career high in steals is 70.

Duncan's career high in blocks is 237. Hakeem's is 376.

We can see clearly now why Olajuwan had 2 DPOY awards to Duncan's 0.

Olajuwan was also a more natural scorer.

Passing wise they were very similar. Remember that Olajuwan was a good passing center too. His career high in assists is higher than Duncan's, in any case (12 to 11).

So the guy was a beast on a level that Tim Duncan never knew.

Look, players are going to go to Hakeem to learn the post from now until he can't move anymore. Nobody is going to pay Tim Duncan to teach them his rigid moves.

You never saw hakeem play did you?

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Hakeem, by a hair...not a slight on Duncan, those two are the best big man ever IMO (that I have seen play). Shaq is the most dominant though.

Both were better than Shaq.

He wasn't so "dominant" when Hakeem abused him facing elimination in game 4 in 95.

And the only way he ever got past Duncan in the playoffs was riding Kobe's coattails.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

So we are giving Hakeem credit for producing stats with 2 rings while MJ retired, but giving Duncan credit for his lower stats while getting FIVE RINGS to Hakeems two?

Imagine if Duncan was drafted by a terrible team. He would be putting up stats that eclipsed Hakeems easily.

The dude put up 22/21/10/8 (and two were later found to be blocks...AKA a quad double) in a FINALS CLOSING game....

Yall crazy to put up Hakeem Mr. 2 rings over Timmy Mr. 5 rings....

Hakeem made it to a NBA Finals before MJ even knew what it was to have a above .500 season. He had nothing to do with Hakeem not winning it all in 86.

And he wasn't "retired" when Orlando sent him home packing in 95.

The same Orlando that the Rockets swept.

I don't know why Jordan Jockers act like their hero was someone who was all sorts of trouble for Hakeem especially when he was treated like this:

Watch on YouTube

by the GOAT shotblocker. On the gist of this thread Duncan could never "Dream" of making such a defensive play. He was more defensively sound than Olajuwon for the most part but he didn't possess the range or athletic ability Hakeem did on defense.

[DidUSaySometing]

Newsflash: Pop is considered the greatest coach of all time. Duncan is not considered the greatest player of all time. Duncan is not even consistently listed in the top 10.

Here San Antonio is in the post Duncan era and they're STILL winning 60+ games.

The story of Spurs rings has less to do with Duncan and more to do with the GOAT coach in Pop.

bulls were winning 50+ w/o prime Jordan. duncan was carrying glorified role players like parker to championships. manu was a good player but duncan never played with a top 10 player in his prime like jordan did

Phil Jackson was a pretty good coach too. 11 rings and all that. But like I said, Pop is winning 60+ games without Duncan.

And 50 wins is really nothing. Pretenders win 50 games all the time.

And if Duncan was carrying "glorified role players like Parker" then why did Parker win Finals MVP over Duncan in 2007? Parker is a 6x all-star, 4x all-nba and a Hall of Famer. Ginobili (2x all-star, 2x all-nba) will also make the Hall of Fame.

Btw, Duncan has 5 rings but only 3 Finals MVPs (Jordan has 6 rings and 6 Finals MVPs).

After 2005 Duncan really wasn't carrying his teams like you thought he was.

parker is a HOFer because he played with duncan. he won finals mvp against a mediocre cavs team and got outplayed by deron williams, steve nash, and an injured AI in the 07 playoffs. duncan carried him in 07

[Joao Saraiva]

I think it's Hakeem. His scoring versatility is better, he's a bit less of a rebounder and passer overall, but he's a better defender. Superior rim protection and he was better at PnR defense too. As crazy as it sounds.

Hakeem by a slight but clear enough margin for me.

[Joao Saraiva]

So I guess people turned this thread into who is higher on the all time list?

Just to make it clear, I think that's Duncan.

However as all arround I think it's Hakeem. And if you never saw the amount of load that dude was capable of carrying and how many things he could to for his team just watch his championship runs. I actually think Hakeem is one of the few guys with a peak case over LeBron or Jordan.

[dhsilv2]

I don't differentiate "all-around" from just better

I don’t get the difference either.

All around would penalize a guy for poor areas of their game. Like hakeem's passing, court vision, iq, etc. While not giving credit for strengths like duncans play on angles.

[dhsilv2]

So I guess people turned this thread into who is higher on the all time list?

Just to make it clear, I think that's Duncan.

However as all arround I think it's Hakeem. And if you never saw the amount of load that dude was capable of carrying and how many things he could to for his team just watch his championship runs. I actually think Hakeem is one of the few guys with a peak case over LeBron or Jordan.

Duncans 03 run was as good in the playoffs and he was better in the season.

[Joao Saraiva]

I don't differentiate "all-around" from just better

I don’t get the difference either.

All around would penalize a guy for poor areas of their game. Like hakeem's passing, court vision, iq, etc. While not giving credit for strengths like duncans play on angles.

Well take this as a clear example. Dirk is not nearly as good as an all arround player as Kevin Garnett. Garnett is not as good as a scorer but he's still good. But he's arguably the better rebounder, passer, and he's definitely the best defender.

However, Dirk's scoring is so great and unique that he's arguably a better player than Kevin Garnett.

You might disagree with the last statement, I don't but that's how I feel about it.

You can probably translate that into a Dirk vs Karl Malone debate for example, if you feel KG is better. Or maybe even a peak vs peak comparison in Dirk vs Blake Griffin. (Haven't checked this one too much).

But I guess that with Dirk you guys might understand better my comparison.

With Hakeem vs Duncan I get the 2 points of view too, but I just feel like Hakeem is a better all arround player than Duncan. Yes his passing wasn't great for his entire career. But from 93 on he was actually pretty good with that too. And on D I just feel like he's better than Duncan at some aspects, and with his scoring as well. So overall I'd take him. I can understand diferent points of view tough, since Duncan vs Hakeem vs Shaq is always a great debate.

[Joao Saraiva]

So I guess people turned this thread into who is higher on the all time list?

Just to make it clear, I think that's Duncan.

However as all arround I think it's Hakeem. And if you never saw the amount of load that dude was capable of carrying and how many things he could to for his team just watch his championship runs. I actually think Hakeem is one of the few guys with a peak case over LeBron or Jordan.

Duncans 03 run was as good in the playoffs and he was better in the season.

I respectfully disagree.

[Joao Saraiva]

Lotta Hakeem fans in here I guess.

The answer is Duncan. The Spurs' incredibly slow pace skews box score stats into Hakeem's favor but the two were very similar peak wise. Duncan's longevity and passing is what gives him the edge.

There are a lot of Hakeem fans everywhere.

The Rockets weren't fast paced either and besides advanced stats account for pace.

Hakeem gets the edge because he was better offensively and defensively. He was simply more naturally gifted at both ends of the floor. It is really that simple. When Olajuwan retired he finished top 10 in scoring, blocks, rebounds and steals - the only player to retire top 10 in those 4 categories.

He is still the all-time leader in blocks by a wide margin.

Not only is he the only center in the top 10 in career steals, he's the only center in the top 20 in steals.

Hakeem is still the only player in history to win MVP, Defensive Player of the Year & Finals MVP in the same season.

Olajuwan recorded more triple doubles than Duncan. More quadruple doubles. He is the only player in history to record 200 blocks and 200 steals in a season. Duncan's career high in steals is 70.

Duncan's career high in blocks is 237. Hakeem's is 376.

We can see clearly now why Olajuwan had 2 DPOY awards to Duncan's 0.

Olajuwan was also a more natural scorer.

Passing wise they were very similar. Remember that Olajuwan was a good passing center too. His career high in assists is higher than Duncan's, in any case (12 to 11).

So the guy was a beast on a level that Tim Duncan never knew.

Look, players are going to go to Hakeem to learn the post from now until he can't move anymore. Nobody is going to pay Tim Duncan to teach them his rigid moves.

You never saw hakeem play did you?

Maybe he watched Hakeem in his best years only. Let' be honest, Hakeem wasn't a great passer by any means when he was younger, but he definitely worked a lot that aspect of his game. And from 93 on he was actually a good passer.

[dhsilv2]

I don’t get the difference either.

All around would penalize a guy for poor areas of their game. Like hakeem's passing, court vision, iq, etc. While not giving credit for strengths like duncans play on angles.

Well take this as a clear example. Dirk is not nearly as good as an all arround player as Kevin Garnett. Garnett is not as good as a scorer but he's still good. But he's arguably the better rebounder, passer, and he's definitely the best defender.

However, Dirk's scoring is so great and unique that he's arguably a better player than Kevin Garnett.

You might disagree with the last statement, I don't but that's how I feel about it.

You can probably translate that into a Dirk vs Karl Malone debate for example, if you feel KG is better. Or maybe even a peak vs peak comparison in Dirk vs Blake Griffin. (Haven't checked this one too much).

But I guess that with Dirk you guys might understand better my comparison.

With Hakeem vs Duncan I get the 2 points of view too, but I just feel like Hakeem is a better all arround player than Duncan. Yes his passing wasn't great for his entire career. But from 93 on he was actually pretty good with that too. And on D I just feel like he's better than Duncan at some aspects, and with his scoring as well. So overall I'd take him. I can understand diferent points of view tough, since Duncan vs Hakeem vs Shaq is always a great debate.

Hakeem got more assists from 93 on because he had a coach build an entire system to make passing easier for him. He was still a terrible passer. Passing and more importantly play making was a HUGE issue with Hakeem. Duncan doesn't have weaknesses like that.

Their scoring is extremely close btw, once you adjust for pace. Hakeem peaked at 35.2 points per 100 vs Duncan at 33.5. Duncan had 11 year of 30+ per 100, Hakeem had 10 years of it. Hakeem's top offensive rating was 114, Duncan's was 116.