Dr Spaceman wrote:SlowPaced wrote:drza wrote:However, and this is key, DRAYMOND'S IMPACT ON THE OFFENSE WOULD BE JUST AS LARGE IF THE SHOOTERS HE WAS SETTING UP WEREN'T AS GOOD!
This is something that gets lost, often, when people say "yeah, but Draymond is in the perfect situation". Draymond would make life similarly easy for Jeff Teague, Lou Williams and Khris Middleton as he does for Curry, Klay and Durant. His own offensive impact scores would still register as very high if these were his teammates. The difference, is, the TEAM'S output wouldn't be nearly as great, because the finishers would be closer to league average than all world. But Draymond's individual offensive impact, as a point-big-man, would stay similar.
Most of your points are valid, but this is off. And here's why.
Draymond's style of play is directly related to the amount of space he gets from being surrounded by such elite shooters. Defenses have to pick their poison. Draymond gets so much space to operate as a playmaker after setting the screen for Steph because Steph is simply too deadly from downtown. Klay and KD have massive gravity themselves.
If his teammates were Jeff Teague, Lou Williams and Khris Middleton, defenses wouldn't shy away from trying to give less space to Draymond. Which would then force him to produce countermoves, which he isn't really capable of. That changes the dynamic of his playing style entirely, thus changing his impact on offense.
This argument was reasonable in 2015, probably 2016 as well though to a lesser extent.
But now? The Warriors don’t even run pick and roll anymore. I believe they’re dead last in Pick and Roll frequency in the entire NBA. Draymond is just straight up the lead guard on this team, the offense runs through him.
So yeah he benefits from having elite scoring talent around him. As does every playmaker ever. But he’s had great playoff series without Steph. He’s had great games without KD. He’s had great games without either. He had 30 points in a game 7 of the Finals.
I guess I’ll put it this way: take Draymond off the Warriors and replace him with Jason Kidd. Do you think the team is better offensively?
That is true if you believe the space created within an offense with ATG shooters in the spread PnR era only comes from the (hard) hedges that the defense use against those ATG shooters when they act as the ball handler in that very spread PnR. I don't think that's true at all, evidently Draymond's playmaking and scoring also comes from constant possessions like when Klay comes from a double curl on the left side and the defense cannot execute properly so Draymond's man slides just a bit to maybe cover the screener who'd roll to the rim when left open and THEN Draymond attacks the rim to add scoring production on his own. That's Draymond's elite basketball intelligence along with a proper handling and finishing ability when the basket is converted by him, but it's also entirely produced by Klay's gravity and insufficient (not even poor always, insufficient is enough to create that look vs Warriors often) defensive execution. Let alone the fact that helps don't even come most of the time on these kind of possessions because on the right side there's a great spot up shooter and/or Steph himself.
Same goes for playmaking too, if Draymond's defender somehow stays home and defense still covers everybody on the weakside play, Draymond doesn't create something out of nothing as others have pointed out with his relative lack of direct creation, he usually goes to Steph/Durant on the weakside for a DHO. And when he creates playmaking from that DHO, that's his timing, vision and basketball IQ but the sufficient space and time for the creation by him is again completely provided by the gravity of the ball handler.
Same for in transition, scouting report always suggests sticking to certain GSW shooters and Draymond doesn't need to explode to the rim in transition for a near-basket score; he finishes when the defense tries to cover everybody else or he passes to a lane filler often when his man plays him more up close. If he finishes, the space provided is again due to those shooters and forced defensive strategy by them; if he passes for the lane filler, both his bucket and Draymond's playmaking in that transition possession is due to same reason. Just examine those transition possessions, Draymond is the only player in the league who's not in a hurry to create a good look in transition and is still able to do so with taking his time to look for the best option. Because he's granted space and time (the latter of which is something most people seem to overlook in this topic) to make that decision which no other player I've ever seen had the advantage of to anywhere close to that degree.
So yes, Draymond has great decision making and good passing abilities with a sense of vision that is enhanced by
a) GSW's offensive system
b) and his great decision making
but he's not a creator that creates with his own threat. You won't see him creating something out of nothing in a low/mid post setting because he's a scoring threat there and bends the defense by himself alone. He's not a great ball handler in traffic as much as in transition at all, so you won't see him bending the defense by himself alone in any kind of PnR to playmake for others/himself. And he's only a good off ball player in the sense he knows how to take advantage out of space that is created by others, which most players in the league don't know how. But he's not an off-ball player who bends the defense by himself alone benefiting from cross/back screens in various positionings on the court and then play simple read and react (which is his strong suit) to playmake from there.
These are not counter points I've tried to raise within the Pippen vs Green discussion, it's just my perspective on Green's playmaking within the GSW offense. I don't agree with the idea that Draymond's playmaking is
entirely caused by GSW offense and him not deserving much credit but I also don't agree with the idea that he displayed the kind of playmaking that's not created by the very outlier opportunities that other players provide for him, not by himself. That's a rare case for great playmakers and is intriguing in Draymond's case for me.
That's hilarious bringing up the 95 bulls who let an all star pf walk and replaced him with nothing. Also hilarious how you note their 34-32 record but not that they were injured all season long and were 8-2 in their last 10 before Jordan returned.