Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now

[slick_watts]

Rotten Apple actually has a point—the tracking data indicates that Melo's actually getting a decent amount of touches and moving the ball well when he does. And his average time per touch is surprisingly low. I think the examples of the times that he doesn't are glaring enough that they're mentally overriding the rest.

Still don't feel like it flows right with him on the floor, though, which is a case where I'm not sure how to reconcile eye test and numbers. Time to go watch film.

the issue to me is that a possession ending 27% of the time in melo's hands and 30% of the time in westbrook's hands-- that's over half the possessions they are ending collectively and even in the best case scenario at those usages they're going to be league average as far as scoring efficiency is concerned.

i think it looks janky because the way they are playing there is considerable overlap between him and westbrook and george. one of them needs to be a spot-up shooter, i think. the 'taking turns' thing is just not getting the most out of the three collectively.

[NOOB77]

What I dont like seeing from Melo and PG for that matter is the standing around and watching at the 3 point line. They aren't spot up shooters. They can create more oppurtunities for others by simply moving and not standing still. They do a pin down for PG and if doesn't get the ball he stands at the 3 point line. If Melo isn't in the pick and roll or not involved in the set he just stands at the 3 point line.

They all need to do a better job of being involved and at least being a decoy when they are not involved in the set. Would like to see Melo down low maybe trying to get some offensive rebouds ect.

I think he is playing light years better on defense than I have ever seen in NY or Denver for that matter. Not a big stat person so not sure it bares out in the stats. But last game against the bulls I actual saw him rotate and cut off a base line drive and challenge the shot. I hear him talking on defense. All signs he is trying to change some.

Also like his rebounding numbers are climbing up again.

Dont like the Isos on no clear mismatches. I think those should be eleminated completely. But the main issue I see with Melo being just a catch and shoot player is that he will not see the ball enought in that aspect because bottom line defenders will not leave him enough in a half court set for him to be effective doing that and only that. Most of his catch and shoot chances are from offensive rebouds or scramble situations.

Also people dont like Melo's style of play and the analytic people hate the long 2. So when he Iso and it ends in a 18 foot jumper it pisses people off.

But like last game if you tell me Melo is going to have 18/11 on only 10 shots I will take that every time every game.

Maybe instead of the 20 foot wing Iso they run some more sets to get him post touches. He seems to pass more when he is in the post as opposed to Wing Isos

[bondom34]

Over 25 percent of his shots are from 16 feet to the 3 point line. The team average is half that. The league average is lower.

[slick_watts]

Over 25 percent of his shots are from 16 feet to the 3 point line. The team average is half that. The league average is lower.

right. there's a disconnect between 'melo is good at making those shots' and 'these shots are good for the offense'. melo's been super consistent shooting 44% or so on those shots the last 4-5 seasons. that ranks highly among % relative to others taking those shots. but it's a cruddy shot for an offense.

[NOOB77]

Over 25 percent of his shots are from 16best to the 3 point line. The team average is half that. The league average is lower.

This is what I think the coach should take away. No more wing Iso's. Get him post touches instead. If he can't get solid post position the point guard should look away and go to a different play.

[Pillendreher]

George and Russ scoring opportunities are coming in set situations instead of just a natural flow. It’s something to keep watching.

I don't quite understand what you're saying here. I would argue we almost never run sets for Russ (besides the standard PnR with Adams).

Rotten Apple actually has a point—the tracking data indicates that Melo's actually getting a decent amount of touches and moving the ball well when he does. And his average time per touch is surprisingly low. I think the examples of the times that he doesn't are glaring enough that they're mentally overriding the rest.

Still don't feel like it flows right with him on the floor, though, which is a case where I'm not sure how to reconcile eye test and numbers. Time to go watch film.

That is indeed weird. Out of the 99 guys with at least 50 touches per game so far, he's only 71st in dribbles per touch and 70th in sec per touch.

the issue to me is that a possession ending 27% of the time in melo's hands and 30% of the time in westbrook's hands-- that's over half the possessions they are ending collectively and even in the best case scenario at those usages they're going to be league average as far as scoring efficiency is concerned.

Yeah I think that number's too high. Although it's important to keep him with the starters and him with the bench seperate. With both Russ and George on the court, his USG% is at 23.9 %. With Russ on the bench it's at 39.7 %.

i think it looks janky because the way they are playing there is considerable overlap between him and westbrook and george. one of them needs to be a spot-up shooter, i think. the 'taking turns' thing is just not getting the most out of the three collectively.

Especially since both Russ and Melo are prone towards taking ill-advised shots. You can live with one guy doing that, but not with two. Not at that volume.

What I dont like seeing from Melo and PG for that matter is the standing around and watching at the 3 point line. They aren't spot up shooters. They can create more oppurtunities for others by simply moving and not standing still. They do a pin down for PG and if doesn't get the ball he stands at the 3 point line. If Melo isn't in the pick and roll or not involved in the set he just stands at the 3 point line.

They all need to do a better job of being involved and at least being a decoy when they are not involved in the set.

This is something we've been calling for for years, yet it has never happened. We're always just standing around and watch.

[Rotten Apple]

Rotten Apple actually has a point—the tracking data indicates that Melo's actually getting a decent amount of touches and moving the ball well when he does. And his average time per touch is surprisingly low. I think the examples of the times that he doesn't are glaring enough that they're mentally overriding the rest.

Still don't feel like it flows right with him on the floor, though, which is a case where I'm not sure how to reconcile eye test and numbers. Time to go watch film.

From my perspective it’s a mix of a few things

1. Russ dominates the ball, not to say he shouldn’t. It’s a very PG centric offense where Russ makes the decision of where the ball goes. It’s rare to see him push it ahead and play off the ball and while it’s unreasonalm to expect him to simply focus on being a drive and kick PG because you want his aggression.

2. The offensive sets take a while to start. You guys aren’t getting early movement in your offense.

3. Penetration, this the key to getting the ball movement you guys desire but the thing is the penetration doesn’t always lead to kicks out and the swinging the ball. Russ penetrates and will try to finish(which he should) or dump it to Adams(another good play) so you’re not seeing the full potential of the offense due to that.

4. Transition, a lot of your transition offense ends at the rim, again good but transition is the perfect time to shoot 3s especially for guys like PG and Melo.

But your offense is mainly

-Russ pick n roll
-pin down for PG
-PG iso
-Melo iso
-Melo post up

Just not enough natural basketball motion to utilize these guys to their best ability.

Luckily you’re playing defense at a high level.

[Rotten Apple]

Over 25 percent of his shots are from 16best to the 3 point line. The team average is half that. The league average is lower.

This is what I think the coach should take away. No more wing Iso's. Get him post touches instead. If he can't get solid post position the point guard should look away and go to a different play.

Pinch post preferably.

Also pick n pop and flex screens.

Mix in some trail 3s on the break and whatever he gets from breakdowns and he should get you an efficient 22 and 7 every night.

[NOOB77]

Over 25 percent of his shots are from 16best to the 3 point line. The team average is half that. The league average is lower.

This is what I think the coach should take away. No more wing Iso's. Get him post touches instead. If he can't get solid post position the point guard should look away and go to a different play.

Pinch post preferably.

Also pick n pop and flex screens.

Mix in some trail 3s on the break and whatever he gets from breakdowns and he should get you an efficient 22 and 7 every night.

As the third option I doubt he will have pick n pop and flex screen chances or too many of them. As long as PG is here he will be getting those chances as the second option and that should be the case.

What the Thunder are lacking is a person that they can dump the ball to in the post and get a bucket or draw double teams. This is a dynamic that Melo could provide and something the Thunder should be taking advantage of especially when the offense is struggling somewhat. Instead of the 22 foot wing iso he has been getting give him the ball about 8-10 feet out in the post. Gives him room to turn and face a bigger person or back down a smaller person. This will also keep him low sometimes to battle a little more for offensive rebounds. I think 3rd option post player/spot up shooter would be a good role for him and get him consistent touches.

Melo while he has great catch and shoot % he isn't a pure catch and shoot player. He needs to have touches and be in a rhythm to be effective. He isn't like a Korver than can just camp out and make 3 after three after three without other touches or oppurtunites.

[Rotten Apple]

This is what I think the coach should take away. No more wing Iso's. Get him post touches instead. If he can't get solid post position the point guard should look away and go to a different play.

Pinch post preferably.

Also pick n pop and flex screens.

Mix in some trail 3s on the break and whatever he gets from breakdowns and he should get you an efficient 22 and 7 every night.

As the third option I doubt he will have pick n pop and flex screen chances or too many of them. As long as PG is here he will be getting those chances as the second option and that should be the case

That’s an issue imo, almost makes it pointless to even have him.

He’s a scorer, put him in scoring positions. There’s been games and times this year where he’s carried the offense.

The key imo should be to make all 3 guys a threat on any play.

Who’s the 1st, 2nd or 3rd option in Golden State. The answer is usually who’s open and we’ll find them.

That should be the goal.

[KnickFan33]

First time visiting the OKC forum. I'm surprised that this thread seems to have a 1:1 post ratio (Thunder fans to Knick fans).

[Andre Roberstan]

First time visiting the OKC forum. I'm surprised that this thread seems to have a 1:1 post ratio (Thunder fans to Knick fans).

There are a lot more Knick fans on this website than Thunder fans. We're a small group.

[M2J]

Pinch post preferably.

Also pick n pop and flex screens.

Mix in some trail 3s on the break and whatever he gets from breakdowns and he should get you an efficient 22 and 7 every night.

As the third option I doubt he will have pick n pop and flex screen chances or too many of them. As long as PG is here he will be getting those chances as the second option and that should be the case

That’s an issue imo, almost makes it pointless to even have him.

He’s a scorer, put him in scoring positions. There’s been games and times this year where he’s carried the offense.

The key imo should be to make all 3 guys a threat on any play.

Who’s the 1st, 2nd or 3rd option in Golden State. The answer is usually who’s open and we’ll find them.

That should be the goal.

I'd agree with that.

I think the offense has looked it's most fluid in it's halfcourt sets when there is cutting off of double teams or from the midpost with Russ or Melo. Primarily Melo, as he's clearly more comfortable in that role. When they post him, someone helps or faintly helps and he just kicks it right back out when the defense is out of position, it opens up driving lanes for the person that he's kicking it right back out to, or it's allowing for ball movement around the perimeter. They need more cutting though. I think the hard thing with isolation offense is knowing when to cut or make yourself seen in the paint as you could be getting in the way of the isolator...but with Melo he's 90% of the time playing for the jumpshot IMO so movement will not hurt his game, and could help other's games and the team.

The best actual offense (not in terms of fluidity, as nothing Russell does is fluid) is Russ/Adams pick and roll.

[bbconair]

melo is 33 or 34 this year. this is how he's played his entire career. this is how he's played for the past x years in NYC. sometimes he changes his playing style (olympics), but that's just a one-off.

i would never expect someone like melo to be able to change his game to accommodate the team and the players on hand - that's just not him.

so asking him to run around, setting picks, hustle, and create plays away from the ball is just hoping for something that he's not. that's why he's not a winner - it's like kobe in the past few years, the game has changed.

[Rotten Apple]

melo is 33 or 34 this year. this is how he's played his entire career. this is how he's played for the past x years in NYC. sometimes he changes his playing style (olympics), but that's just a one-off.

i would never expect someone like melo to be able to change his game to accommodate the team and the players on hand - that's just not him.

so asking him to run around, setting picks, hustle, and create plays away from the ball is just hoping for something that he's not. that's why he's not a winner - it's like kobe in the past few years, the game has changed.

Play to your strengths within the confines of the team. To call him selfish but then ask him to only do those things listed is even more selfish.

[Pillendreher]

I like this Melo the most. Plays defense, takes an appropriate amount of shots, does things like this

https://streamable.com/3nlzt

One might say our best offensive games have been with Melo having a lesser role offensively while also playing decent defense (Clippers, Warriors).

[ThunderBolt]

I like this Melo the most. Plays defense, takes an appropriate amount of shots, does things like this

https://streamable.com/3nlzt

One might say our best offensive games have been with Melo having a lesser role offensively while also playing decent defense (Clippers, Warriors).

I agree. I think he had three straight iso possessions in the fourth that kind of irritated me but the game was mostly out of hand by then.

[spearsy23]

I like this Melo the most. Plays defense, takes an appropriate amount of shots, does things like this

https://streamable.com/3nlzt

One might say our best offensive games have been with Melo having a lesser role offensively while also playing decent defense (Clippers, Warriors).

From what I've seen his lack of athleticism is a significant limitation on his efficiency upside. He's quick for a 4 but not outstandingly so, and his ability to elevate is severely lacking so he struggles/avoids challenging bigs at the rim. It, and a lack of a floater, are what leads to his long contested twos, he's more comfortable with them than getting to the rim.