Emergency GT: Magic (8-6) @ Blazers (7-6)

[pepe1991]

Bucks are 4-0 since acquiring him.

He was so easy to get and we let him slip away.

But Payton is soo good at running a team, he is basically walking triple double

For a record, i don't hate Elfrid Payton, i just hate people here that act like he is Magic Johnson with nothing to back it up

dw theres always march

yea, time of a year when half of a teams tank and other half rest stars for playoffs.

[PennytoShaq]

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Fool me 4th year in a row and i might be mentally challenged.

But yes, I also predicted this would happen. The board would say "we have started hot, wait until Elf gets back, we will better" and has now changed to "we should have gotten Bledsoe" . It was so obvious this would happen, imo, but the funny thing is that people were saying we didn't need Bledsoe on the team. That's what really blows my mind to be honest.

My thinking was to try and trade so we had Payton as our reserve PG.

Maybe the Suns didn't want anything we had. Who knows. I do know that if we had Bledsoe this team would be better right now.

[SOUL]

Bledsoe is shooting 36/16 percent since joining the Bucks. If we replaced Payton with a point guard putting up those numbers and we started losing people would be going crazy right now - you win, and you get the credit for being the difference maker. It's reactionary and until you see the entire season play out it's hard to make a call on what is good or bad for the team.

The Bucks are winning because they have a legit star named Giannis and Middleton is stepping up as well.. they're getting production from different players during the last 4 games. Bledsoe is acting as a useful cog on the team but hasn't exactly played like a star yet.. but when your other options are Dellavedova or Gary Payton III outside of Brogdon then Bledsoe is going to be a godsend.

People have their favorite players. AG, Payton, Vuc, Fournier. Just on the two pages alone all four players have gotten blame and also defended from posters. Vuc isn't to blame for bad defense, Fournier isn't to blame for bad ball movement, Payton is doing fine, AG is just learning what to do on offense, etc. the fact is if we had a LEGIT star player to replace any of these dudes (AG withstanding, he can still get to a star level I think) then we would be a better team.

I mean Suns were getting blown out by 30+ points with Bledsoe and started winning when he was put on the trade market.. does that mean he's as bad as that made him look? No. Is he as good as being the savior of the Bucks franchise and the sole reason the Bucks are doing better? Could they have done that without him the last 4 games? Possibly.

My point is that faults get magnified when we lose and ignored when we win. People don't like bringing up issues when we win because they think it dampers the good mood, but that's really the best time to address certain things with the team and realize that you can be getting away with bad habits while winning and do everything right in a loss.

Fournier CAN be a much improved player, our best shooting option, improving his court vision and still be lacking compared to others in our team in that area. Vucevic can be a numbers-wise better defender that still gets beat on really simple plays and has less than stellar awareness compared to other centers at that position. Payton can be a great distributor and floor general while making stupid choices on the court at times, AG can be a vastly improved offensive player that deserves more plays called for him that also needs to know when to pick his spots and attack or not.

Too many people on here start arguments or reply to posts with viewpoints that are too black or white. Basketball is a nuanced sport, and most of us watch a lot of basketball here. I think both sides of each argument for all of these players have a truth that lies somewhere near the middle.. more on one side than the other for some of these guys, but nevertheless it isn't as great or as bad as some people make it out to be. I think if some people let go of certain defense mechanisms they have towards each player and really see what some people are pointing out, it might start to make more sense. I've been trying to do that more lately and have called out things that EP or AG have done that annoy me just as much as anything from players I'm not as high on.

[cedric76]

This team is not built to stop guards who can slash and shoot. You know why.

True, but I'm not sure exactly what you are insinuating.

people like to put all the blame on vuc even though our perimeter defence is terrible at stopping penetrating guards as well and gets lost on switches and screens all the time. vuc isn't a good rim protector but he's made look worse when our guards let their man by so easily

+1000

[pepe1991]

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Fool me 4th year in a row and i might be mentally challenged.

But yes, I also predicted this would happen. The board would say "we have started hot, wait until Elf gets back, we will better" and has now changed to "we should have gotten Bledsoe" . It was so obvious this would happen, imo, but the funny thing is that people were saying we didn't need Bledsoe on the team. That's what really blows my mind to be honest.

My thinking was to try and trade so we had Payton as our reserve PG.

Maybe the Suns didn't want anything we had. Who knows. I do know that if we had Bledsoe this team would be better right now.

I don't care that much about Bledsoe trade. But he was cheap for player that is capable of being borderline allstar.
My bigger problem here was Irving. Literally half of people acted like some overshooting scrub is open to trade only because he couldn't carry a team by himself. At age of 21. On roster where Jack,Hawes, Deng and Varejao took 65% of salary and only Jack was able to contribute in any way. On a roster with Anthony Bennett and Andrew Bynum.
Yet somehow they won 33 games only and just only because of Irving.
Even , looking from todays perspective 6 apg was too much given how awful that roster was.

And half of the forum just downplayed and downtalked Irving like he is C level star at age of 30

Just some qoutes from that topic, i won't put up names who said what

"The guys you think they'd want in return aren't the guys they'd ask for. 100% they'd want Isaac and/or Gordon, etc.
I'm not going to gut assets for Kyrie and be left with him and Fournier and Vuc. Other stars yes, but we saw before LeBron he wasn't a huge impact guy because he was a good scorer but subpar as a point guard and played no defense."

one guy said: Trade everyone for him, please. He is a superstar. I think we dont have any option to get him. We cant offer enough talent. I would try with AG, Payton, Vuc, 1st 2018

reply to him ( with most likes was

" No he isn't. He's a great volume scorer. People out here thinking he's Curry..."

For me, Irving is the cancer that defines the current NBA. I want nothing to do with him in Magic blue.

not gonna lie, i had blast going through comments of that topic again , i'm proud of myself right now because i found this "

by pepe1991 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:01 am

So in mind of some people here Irving isn't great because at age of 22 he couldn't carry a team playoffs on a roster where Dion Waiters was second best player ?

Whoever gets him it will be another James Harden situation where people will be shocked when they figure out how good he is. Actually Harden wasn't even star when he was traded, with Irving you get instant 22-25 ppg on 56-58% TS at age of 25

[SOUL]

First one was def me, and I still stand by that for the assets that they wanted for Kyrie. He's 100% helped the Celtics and is a good player.. and I have never disputed that... but look at the stats still.. shooting 42/31 and this is the offense of the Celtics currently:

Read on Twitter

The Celtics have the best defense in the league by a wide margin and is the reason they're winning games right now.. and Kyrie has never been known for his defense. Doing way better under Stevens but he's not the lynchpin on that end.

I'd say the biggest reasons for the Celtics winning so far is:

1A. Stevens
1B. Horford
2. Irving
3. Jaylen Brown
4. Marcus Smart/Jayson Tatum
5. Rozier
6. Theis

If you're looking at AG/Isaac going away for the team you got.. Irving/Ross/Fournier/Speights?/Vucevic.

I say that team mimics more of the Cavs teams before LeBron than the current Celtics team that has 3 tough defenders (Brown/Horford/Smart) as well as people like Morris/Rozier/Theis that can mix it up as well. Not to mention a coach like Brad Stevens. Plus one ball to share that must be distributd amongst offense only players (Kyrie, Fournier, Vuc, Simmons, Speights, even Ross).

My issue is always going to be what the fit is with OUR team. I also called Bledsoe to Bucks early on since I thought they had the assets available to attain him and the team that needed him the most.

[The Real Dalic]

If the Magic don't start going back to good ball movement and movement without the ball, not only will we miss the playoffs, but we'll also end up the 12th seed in the East.

[pepe1991]

First one was def me, and I still stand by that for the assets that they wanted for Kyrie. He's 100% helped the Celtics and is a good player.. and I have never disputed that... but look at the stats still.. shooting 42/31 and this is the offense of the Celtics currently:

Read on Twitter

The Celtics have the best defense in the league by a wide margin and is the reason they're winning games right now.. and Kyrie has never been known for his defense. Doing way better under Stevens but he's not the lynchpin on that end.

I'd say the biggest reasons for the Celtics winning so far is:

1A. Stevens
1B. Horford
2. Irving
3. Jaylen Brown
4. Marcus Smart/Jayson Tatum
5. Rozier
6. Theis

If you're looking at AG/Isaac going away for the team you got.. Irving/Ross/Fournier/Speights?/Vucevic.

I say that team mimics more of the Cavs teams before LeBron than the current Celtics team that has 3 tough defenders (Brown/Horford/Smart) as well as people like Morris/Rozier/Theis that can mix it up as well. Not to mention a coach like Brad Stevens. Plus one ball to share that must be distributd amongst offense only players (Kyrie, Fournier, Vuc, Simmons, Speights, even Ross).

My issue is always going to be what the fit is with OUR team. I also called Bledsoe to Bucks early on since I thought they had the assets available to attain him and the team that needed him the most.

I have theory about production of players on teams that play good defense. In nba defense comes off as idea of slowing pace and literally grinding from possession to possession. Something that Memphis, and now Celtics ( and in past Pistons and Spurs were great at ) . When you develop that type of gameplan you don't only kill opponents rythm, you kill your own as well. That's why you get kind a deflated offensive and inflated defensive stats.

By basic stats Irving is 20 ppg scoreer on 44% FG and 32% for 3, yet his defensive rating i 97, offensive rating 111, OBPM +4,8, DBPM +1 . So he comes off as one of best guard defenders in whole league.

I agree about Stevens but i would rank him first, than 2A Irving and 3A Horford. Their pick&roll opens a floor for everybody. Jaylen Brown could become new Leonard. Lot of talent there for somebody who is 21 and already scores 15ppg and plays above average defense.
It's crazy how young they are. Tatum didn't even 20 yet, Brown is 21, Irving 25, Rozier and Smart 23 and Hayward is 27 , just entering his prime (if he can recover mentally from that injury )

[Xatticus]

First one was def me, and I still stand by that for the assets that they wanted for Kyrie. He's 100% helped the Celtics and is a good player.. and I have never disputed that... but look at the stats still.. shooting 42/31 and this is the offense of the Celtics currently:

Read on Twitter

The Celtics have the best defense in the league by a wide margin and is the reason they're winning games right now.. and Kyrie has never been known for his defense. Doing way better under Stevens but he's not the lynchpin on that end.

I'd say the biggest reasons for the Celtics winning so far is:

1A. Stevens
1B. Horford
2. Irving
3. Jaylen Brown
4. Marcus Smart/Jayson Tatum
5. Rozier
6. Theis

If you're looking at AG/Isaac going away for the team you got.. Irving/Ross/Fournier/Speights?/Vucevic.

I say that team mimics more of the Cavs teams before LeBron than the current Celtics team that has 3 tough defenders (Brown/Horford/Smart) as well as people like Morris/Rozier/Theis that can mix it up as well. Not to mention a coach like Brad Stevens. Plus one ball to share that must be distributd amongst offense only players (Kyrie, Fournier, Vuc, Simmons, Speights, even Ross).

My issue is always going to be what the fit is with OUR team. I also called Bledsoe to Bucks early on since I thought they had the assets available to attain him and the team that needed him the most.

I have theory about production of players on teams that play good defense. In nba defense comes off as idea of slowing pace and literally grinding from possession to possession. Something that Memphis, and now Celtics ( and in past Pistons and Spurs were great at ) . When you develop that type of gameplan you don't only kill opponents rythm, you kill your own as well. That's why you get kind a deflated stats offensive stats and inflated defensive stats.

By basic stats Irving is 20 ppg scoreer on 44% FG and 32% for 3, yet his defensive rating i 97, offensive rating 111, OBPM +4,8, DBPM +1 . So he comes off as one of best guard defenders in whole league.

I agree about Stevens but i would rank him first, than 2A Irving and 3A Horford. Their pick&roll opens a floor for everybody. Jaylen Brown could become new Leonard. Lot of talent there for somebody who is 21 and already scores 15ppg and plays above average defense.
It's crazy how young they are. Tatum didn't even 20 yet, Brown is 21, Irving 25, Rozier and Smart 23 and Hayward is 27 , just entering his prime (if he can recover mentally from that injury )

As the saying goes... "there is more than one way to skin a cat."

You can improve your defense by abandoning offensive rebounding and playing a conservative offense that limits turnovers and never ends possessions with your point guard in the paint. This essentially kills the opposition's transition game, but it also comes at a heavy expense to your own offense. Neither team gets many easy baskets when you play this way. This is Steve Clifford basketball.

Last night's result notwithstanding, I still prefer the Warriors' approach. I believe there is a place for offensive rebounding and a more aggressive offense, but you have to master whatever approach you use. A helter skelter approach can be very successful if you can draw your opposition into it and if you are the more effective team in implementing it. I've just seen too many examples of plodding teams getting their doors blown off after they get baited into running.

Brad Stevens is the best coach in the NBA not named Gregg Popovich. He can get value out of anyone. Irving is looking great right now because of Boston's fast start coupled with Cleveland's slow start, but his numbers really aren't overwhelming. I don't recall chiming in on Irving's availability, but I doubt I was critical of his ability considering how incredibly efficient he was with Cleveland. Just the same, I'm of the opinion that it would've gutted our roster to acquire him and that we simply don't have the resources that Boston does to build a roster around him.

To me, this all goes back to the ways that we inefficiently extricated ourselves of players like Harris, Oladipo, and Sabonis. I keep reading the silly excuses about how we couldn't accommodate Harris, Oladipo, Fournier, etc... and so we had to make choices. At no point in the last five years have we suffered from an excess of talent. When it came to Irving and Bledsoe, these might've been viable moves if we had the pieces available to tempt Cleveland or Phoenix. The reality is that we didn't because we'd already given these assets away. How were we ever going to top Boston's offer for Irving? How were we going to top Milwaukee's offer for Bledsoe? We really have very little in the way of disposable assets at the moment.

[SOUL]

Just saw this.

[ChosenSavior]

Just saw this.

Thank you for providing me with my new profile pic for Facebook...

The Internet always comes through...

[PennytoShaq]

I actually would not trade Isaac and Gordon for Irving even though I think Irving is great. I simply think Isaac and AG are the foundation of this team, and would want to pair them up with someone like Kyrie.

The reason I wanted Bledsoe so badly is because I believe he may have been attainable without having to lose those two players.

[OrlChamps2030]

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Fool me 4th year in a row and i might be mentally challenged.

But yes, I also predicted this would happen. The board would say "we have started hot, wait until Elf gets back, we will better" and has now changed to "we should have gotten Bledsoe" . It was so obvious this would happen, imo, but the funny thing is that people were saying we didn't need Bledsoe on the team. That's what really blows my mind to be honest.

My thinking was to try and trade so we had Payton as our reserve PG.

Maybe the Suns didn't want anything we had. Who knows. I do know that if we had Bledsoe this team would be better right now.

I don't care that much about Bledsoe trade. But he was cheap for player that is capable of being borderline allstar.
My bigger problem here was Irving. Literally half of people acted like some overshooting scrub is open to trade only because he couldn't carry a team by himself. At age of 21. On roster where Jack,Hawes, Deng and Varejao took 65% of salary and only Jack was able to contribute in any way. On a roster with Anthony Bennett and Andrew Bynum.
Yet somehow they won 33 games only and just only because of Irving.
Even , looking from todays perspective 6 apg was too much given how awful that roster was.

And half of the forum just downplayed and downtalked Irving like he is C level star at age of 30

Just some qoutes from that topic, i won't put up names who said what

"The guys you think they'd want in return aren't the guys they'd ask for. 100% they'd want Isaac and/or Gordon, etc.
I'm not going to gut assets for Kyrie and be left with him and Fournier and Vuc. Other stars yes, but we saw before LeBron he wasn't a huge impact guy because he was a good scorer but subpar as a point guard and played no defense."

one guy said: Trade everyone for him, please. He is a superstar. I think we dont have any option to get him. We cant offer enough talent. I would try with AG, Payton, Vuc, 1st 2018

reply to him ( with most likes was

" No he isn't. He's a great volume scorer. People out here thinking he's Curry..."

For me, Irving is the cancer that defines the current NBA. I want nothing to do with him in Magic blue.

not gonna lie, i had blast going through comments of that topic again , i'm proud of myself right now because i found this "

by pepe1991 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:01 am

So in mind of some people here Irving isn't great because at age of 22 he couldn't carry a team playoffs on a roster where Dion Waiters was second best player ?

Whoever gets him it will be another James Harden situation where people will be shocked when they figure out how good he is. Actually Harden wasn't even star when he was traded, with Irving you get instant 22-25 ppg on 56-58% TS at age of 25

Do you have the link to that thread?

[Optimus_Steel]

The reason I wanted Bledsoe so badly is because I believe he may have been attainable without having to lose those two players.

Agree. That was my reasoning. You have the ability to add a good player that would improve the talent level on the team without giving up a lot because of the situation. Had a shot to do so at a discount and passed it up, we lack talent we need to be more aggressive and make moves like that. We gotta make our team more attractive to good players.

[pepe1991]

But yes, I also predicted this would happen. The board would say "we have started hot, wait until Elf gets back, we will better" and has now changed to "we should have gotten Bledsoe" . It was so obvious this would happen, imo, but the funny thing is that people were saying we didn't need Bledsoe on the team. That's what really blows my mind to be honest.

My thinking was to try and trade so we had Payton as our reserve PG.

Maybe the Suns didn't want anything we had. Who knows. I do know that if we had Bledsoe this team would be better right now.

I don't care that much about Bledsoe trade. But he was cheap for player that is capable of being borderline allstar.
My bigger problem here was Irving. Literally half of people acted like some overshooting scrub is open to trade only because he couldn't carry a team by himself. At age of 21. On roster where Jack,Hawes, Deng and Varejao took 65% of salary and only Jack was able to contribute in any way. On a roster with Anthony Bennett and Andrew Bynum.
Yet somehow they won 33 games only and just only because of Irving.
Even , looking from todays perspective 6 apg was too much given how awful that roster was.

And half of the forum just downplayed and downtalked Irving like he is C level star at age of 30

Just some qoutes from that topic, i won't put up names who said what

"The guys you think they'd want in return aren't the guys they'd ask for. 100% they'd want Isaac and/or Gordon, etc.
I'm not going to gut assets for Kyrie and be left with him and Fournier and Vuc. Other stars yes, but we saw before LeBron he wasn't a huge impact guy because he was a good scorer but subpar as a point guard and played no defense."

one guy said: Trade everyone for him, please. He is a superstar. I think we dont have any option to get him. We cant offer enough talent. I would try with AG, Payton, Vuc, 1st 2018

reply to him ( with most likes was

" No he isn't. He's a great volume scorer. People out here thinking he's Curry..."

For me, Irving is the cancer that defines the current NBA. I want nothing to do with him in Magic blue.

not gonna lie, i had blast going through comments of that topic again , i'm proud of myself right now because i found this "

by pepe1991 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:01 am

So in mind of some people here Irving isn't great because at age of 22 he couldn't carry a team playoffs on a roster where Dion Waiters was second best player ?

Whoever gets him it will be another James Harden situation where people will be shocked when they figure out how good he is. Actually Harden wasn't even star when he was traded, with Irving you get instant 22-25 ppg on 56-58% TS at age of 25

Do you have the link to that thread?

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1598576

[pepe1991]

Just saw this.

Just a little edit to make things even better

[ChosenSavior]

^^LMAO that one is brilliant

[Orlando_kingdom]

First one was def me, and I still stand by that for the assets that they wanted for Kyrie. He's 100% helped the Celtics and is a good player.. and I have never disputed that... but look at the stats still.. shooting 42/31 and this is the offense of the Celtics currently:

Read on Twitter

The Celtics have the best defense in the league by a wide margin and is the reason they're winning games right now.. and Kyrie has never been known for his defense. Doing way better under Stevens but he's not the lynchpin on that end.

I'd say the biggest reasons for the Celtics winning so far is:

1A. Stevens
1B. Horford
2. Irving
3. Jaylen Brown
4. Marcus Smart/Jayson Tatum
5. Rozier
6. Theis

If you're looking at AG/Isaac going away for the team you got.. Irving/Ross/Fournier/Speights?/Vucevic.

I say that team mimics more of the Cavs teams before LeBron than the current Celtics team that has 3 tough defenders (Brown/Horford/Smart) as well as people like Morris/Rozier/Theis that can mix it up as well. Not to mention a coach like Brad Stevens. Plus one ball to share that must be distributd amongst offense only players (Kyrie, Fournier, Vuc, Simmons, Speights, even Ross).

My issue is always going to be what the fit is with OUR team. I also called Bledsoe to Bucks early on since I thought they had the assets available to attain him and the team that needed him the most.

starting 5 need to learn how to play better defence,AG has been fall in love to take 3 ball,and not very gd at attack the rim with his ball handling,I dun understand why ppl throught simmons is a ballhog when he pass more than fournier

[Orlando_kingdom]

If the Magic don't start going back to good ball movement and movement without the ball, not only will we miss the playoffs, but we'll also end up the 12th seed in the East.

magic's defence should be take a big leap

[Dennis Reynolds]

Just saw this.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Just a little edit to make things even better