Markelle Fultz Discussion II

[Ericb5]

This should be the playbook going forward for all GMs who select top picks that struggle early. Look terrible, shut'em down. Let everyone focus on the other struggling rookies. Colangelo is a genius.

Just to make this clear, the logical implication of your cynicism is that you believe that he isn’t injured, and this is all a ruse to protect Colangelo from criticism?

If that isn’t the case then you are clearly just trolling.

I just want it to be made clear, that you are saying that there is nothing physically wrong with Fultz that caused this problem, and his real problem is just that he isn’t a good enough basketball player.


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[Negrodamus]

I think he's weeks away. Like I'm already sort of expecting January. Until we see him publicly shooting normal jump shots (with his right hand) I don't think he'll be back anytime soon.

Is Gobert going to be healthy for that game? He's out for a while I believe.

Oh, I completely missed that with the Gobert injury. Not that surprising since Utah is generally forgettable to me.

With Fultz posting "Be Back Soon!" on Instagram, it would just be strange to me if it took all of November, December and into January for him to return. The only way is if this goes beyond an injury (to much of the dismay of many posters on here).

I think anyone that believes this is purely an injury is kidding themselves. I don't think the Sixers think it's just an injury. Not that I think they would publicly admit that.

January might be a little much but I don't think he's playing before 12/1 unless we see footage his normal jump shots before thanksgiving.

There are quite a few people on this board kidding themselves.

[Ericb5]

Sorry for offending you. This is off-topic anyway. Did Brussard and Cowherd have anything to say about Markelle Fultz?

I heard it too. Broussard said if it wasn't for Lavar Ball being so loud, if he was just a normal parent he doesn't think Ball would have been picked #2... especially after he got destroyed by DeÁaron Fox in College.

He said because Lavar created all this hype it was almost like the Lakers were forced to take him due to all the "Next Magic", "UCLA local kid" stuff that Lavar was pumping up.

In another video with Cowheard and Rob Parker they went even further... Parker said the Lakers were duped and they had no choice but to pick him. Said that there are these odd draft picks where teams get "trapped" into picking players they normally wouldn't pick just because they are local kids and it can burn a team for years.

If that is at all true, then Magic should be fired. You cannot let hype and public perception influence the pick.

This is dumb. Lavar either hurt, or had no effect on his draft stock. There is no way that anyone would look at Lavar and have it increase their desire to draft his son.





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[Ericb5]

I think he's weeks away. Like I'm already sort of expecting January. Until we see him publicly shooting normal jump shots (with his right hand) I don't think he'll be back anytime soon.

Is Gobert going to be healthy for that game? He's out for a while I believe.

Oh, I completely missed that with the Gobert injury. Not that surprising since Utah is generally forgettable to me.

With Fultz posting "Be Back Soon!" on Instagram, it would just be strange to me if it took all of November, December and into January for him to return. The only way is if this goes beyond an injury (to much of the dismay of many posters on here).

I think anyone that believes this is purely an injury is kidding themselves. I don't think the Sixers think it's just an injury. Not that I think they would publicly admit that.

January might be a little much but I don't think he's playing before 12/1 unless we see footage his normal jump shots before thanksgiving.

Regardless of when he comes back, it shouldn’t be until he is without pain and is shooting normally. If that isn’t the case then they need to keep him out longer.


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[Negrodamus]

I heard it too. Broussard said if it wasn't for Lavar Ball being so loud, if he was just a normal parent he doesn't think Ball would have been picked #2... especially after he got destroyed by DeÁaron Fox in College.

He said because Lavar created all this hype it was almost like the Lakers were forced to take him due to all the "Next Magic", "UCLA local kid" stuff that Lavar was pumping up.

In another video with Cowheard and Rob Parker they went even further... Parker said the Lakers were duped and they had no choice but to pick him. Said that there are these odd draft picks where teams get "trapped" into picking players they normally wouldn't pick just because they are local kids and it can burn a team for years.

If that is at all true, then Magic should be fired. You cannot let hype and public perception influence the pick.

This is dumb. Lavar either hurt, or had no effect on his draft stock. There is no way that anyone would look at Lavar and have it increase their desire to draft his son.





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I'm just commenting on what was reported. Making a decision based on anything other than the player's evaluation is beyond stupid. Him being from LA should have absolutely no bearing on the decision.

[HotelVitale]

only thing I will say is anyone who doesn't like fultz as a prospect, but touted or even still touts lonzo, your opinion is dirt to me.. just sayin

Are their opinions dirt? Seems like they just don't know what it takes for a player to succeed at the NBA level. Not really surprised how many people got duped by Ball. His efficiency was ridiculous even though there was obvious noise about it. If you looked deeper he clearly wasn't in the same talent class as some of the other top prospects. Josh Jackson's descent into the trash bin is more surprising.

I wasn't particularly high on Ball or Jackson but so much of this stuff is unpredictable, and no one who makes draft boards and scouts tape and stuff hits on a big majority of their projections. That said, I think most amateur scouts should be able to answer 'what can and can't this guy do right away in the NBA?' I feel like I usually do okay in draft projecting just by focusing on that; this year that meant seeing DSJ can get into the lane and do something there all day, Markkanen will get up good % shots and hustle, and Tatum can shoot, finish, and defend/rebound well enough to hold his own. (I also thought Malik Monk would be able to score right away, too, so I'm not trying to brag or say I got some kinda magic insight).

With guys like Fultz and Ball you don't really know that stuff. They were able to impact the game in many ways in college, but they're in that sweet spot where they're not athletic/quick enough to come right in and do the exact same stuff in the NBA--so how do you figure out what their overall impact will be if they won't have the same space or gaps to use their skills within? In Lonzo's case, making a projection on him comes down to a couple questions about translating; looking back on some of them now, how exactly is a scout to know that he'd be a 23% shooter from 3 rather than the 41% shooter he was in college (when he frequently took shots from NBA distance and at NBA speed)? Or how do you know the limit of talent at which he won't be able to to do his thing--in other words, why was he able to make such an impact in SL but seem overwhelmed and limited in the NBA? I'd really like to know how people claiming Ball was trash knew this stuff at draft time.

[Sixerscan]

only thing I will say is anyone who doesn't like fultz as a prospect, but touted or even still touts lonzo, your opinion is dirt to me.. just sayin

Are their opinions dirt? Seems like they just don't know what it takes for a player to succeed at the NBA level. Not really surprised how many people got duped by Ball. His efficiency was ridiculous even though there was obvious noise about it. If you looked deeper he clearly wasn't in the same talent class as some of the other top prospects. Josh Jackson's descent into the trash bin is more surprising.

I wasn't particularly high on Ball or Jackson but so much of this stuff is unpredictable, and no one who makes draft boards and scouts tape and stuff hits on a big majority of their projections. That said, I think most amateur scouts should be able to answer 'what can and can't this guy do right away in the NBA?' I feel like I usually do okay in draft projecting just by focusing on that; this year that meant seeing DSJ can get into the lane and do something there all day, Markkanen will get up good % shots and hustle, and Tatum can shoot, finish, and defend/rebound well enough to hold his own. (I also thought Malik Monk would be able to score right away, too, so I'm not trying to brag or say I got some kinda magic insight).

With guys like Fultz and Ball you don't really know that stuff. They were able to impact the game in many ways in college, but they're in that sweet spot where they're not athletic/quick enough to come right in and do the exact same stuff in the NBA--so how do you figure out what their overall impact will be if they won't have the same space or gaps to use their skills within? In Lonzo's case, making a projection on him comes down to a couple questions about translating; looking back on some of them now, how exactly is a scout to know that he'd be a 23% shooter from 3 rather than the 41% shooter he was in college (when he frequently took shots from NBA distance and at NBA speed)? Or how do you know the limit of talent at which he won't be able to to do his thing--in other words, why was he able to make such an impact in SL but seem overwhelmed and limited in the NBA? I'd really like to know how people claiming Ball was trash knew this stuff at draft time.

I don't think Ball is a bust yet.

That being said, every year we see guys kill it in summer league and then fall on their face in the league. Kris Dunn looked much better in 2016 summer league than Ball did this year.

Summer league really does not matter a whole lot as a predictive tool. It's glorified pickup ball with 75% not NBA talent. You can see whatever you want to see. We say that every year and people still get carried away with it.

[Ericb5]

If that is at all true, then Magic should be fired. You cannot let hype and public perception influence the pick.

This is dumb. Lavar either hurt, or had no effect on his draft stock. There is no way that anyone would look at Lavar and have it increase their desire to draft his son.





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I'm just commenting on what was reported. Making a decision based on anything other than the player's evaluation is beyond stupid. Him being from LA should have absolutely no bearing on the decision.

I meant that what Broussard said was dumb, and not what you said.

Levar gets more eyeballs on Lonzo, but he doesn’t make him a better basketball player.


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[Eyeamok]

I heard it too. Broussard said if it wasn't for Lavar Ball being so loud, if he was just a normal parent he doesn't think Ball would have been picked #2... especially after he got destroyed by DeÁaron Fox in College.

He said because Lavar created all this hype it was almost like the Lakers were forced to take him due to all the "Next Magic", "UCLA local kid" stuff that Lavar was pumping up.

In another video with Cowheard and Rob Parker they went even further... Parker said the Lakers were duped and they had no choice but to pick him. Said that there are these odd draft picks where teams get "trapped" into picking players they normally wouldn't pick just because they are local kids and it can burn a team for years.

If that is at all true, then Magic should be fired. You cannot let hype and public perception influence the pick.

This is dumb. Lavar either hurt, or had no effect on his draft stock. There is no way that anyone would look at Lavar and have it increase their desire to draft his son.

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My respect for Lavar has gone through the roof if he was able to do this. A lone guy from Chino Hills took on the might LA Lakers organization. With it storied history of championships and being a top flight organization, and forced them to take a player #2 overall that they did not want! This is on pair with the diamond hoax of 1872. It's utterly amazing.

Cowheard and Parker must just be trying to stir up the natives.

If I was Magic and the Lakers and this was true. I would do my utmost to make sure this never came out. I'd be making statements all throughout the season that "Ball was our guy all along. Even if we had the #1 pick." "We believe in Ball."

Go down with the ship on this one Magic.

[Eyeamok]

Don't be surprised if you see a headline on the front page of Realgm

"Magic wanted to Trade for the #1 pick but Danny refused his call."

Sources say Magic Johnson was primed to take Jayson Tatum #1 but was unable to reach Danny Ainge before the deal with the 76ers went down. Then they had a 2nd workout with Ball who blew them away. Sources also say because of their storied NBA finals history, Danny was not about to trade the #1 pick to long time rival Magic Johnson and the Lakers."

[Ericb5]

Are their opinions dirt? Seems like they just don't know what it takes for a player to succeed at the NBA level. Not really surprised how many people got duped by Ball. His efficiency was ridiculous even though there was obvious noise about it. If you looked deeper he clearly wasn't in the same talent class as some of the other top prospects. Josh Jackson's descent into the trash bin is more surprising.

I wasn't particularly high on Ball or Jackson but so much of this stuff is unpredictable, and no one who makes draft boards and scouts tape and stuff hits on a big majority of their projections. That said, I think most amateur scouts should be able to answer 'what can and can't this guy do right away in the NBA?' I feel like I usually do okay in draft projecting just by focusing on that; this year that meant seeing DSJ can get into the lane and do something there all day, Markkanen will get up good % shots and hustle, and Tatum can shoot, finish, and defend/rebound well enough to hold his own. (I also thought Malik Monk would be able to score right away, too, so I'm not trying to brag or say I got some kinda magic insight).

With guys like Fultz and Ball you don't really know that stuff. They were able to impact the game in many ways in college, but they're in that sweet spot where they're not athletic/quick enough to come right in and do the exact same stuff in the NBA--so how do you figure out what their overall impact will be if they won't have the same space or gaps to use their skills within? In Lonzo's case, making a projection on him comes down to a couple questions about translating; looking back on some of them now, how exactly is a scout to know that he'd be a 23% shooter from 3 rather than the 41% shooter he was in college (when he frequently took shots from NBA distance and at NBA speed)? Or how do you know the limit of talent at which he won't be able to to do his thing--in other words, why was he able to make such an impact in SL but seem overwhelmed and limited in the NBA? I'd really like to know how people claiming Ball was trash knew this stuff at draft time.

I don't think Ball is a bust yet.

That being said, every year we see guys kill it in summer league and then fall on their face in the league. Kris Dunn looked much better in 2016 summer league than Ball did this year.

Summer league really does not matter a whole lot as a predictive tool. You can see whatever you want to see. We say that every year and people still get carried away with it.

How can a player EVER be considered a bust in November of his rookie year? It just doesn’t make sense. He has only played half of the teams in the league one time.

Summer league is also highly misleading. It’s almost like predicting how good an nfl team would be based on their preseason performance.

You can see skills on display in the summer league, but it has no predictive value for how someone will do in the league because there are so few nba players in the league, and the ones that do play don’t tend to be the players that are positive contributors in the nba.



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[KrazySixersD]

markelle is a better athlete in every way than lonzo

[Negrodamus]

I don't think Ball is a bust. He will be a great role player if they put better pieces on the team. I just don't anticipate him sticking around LA long enough for that to happen. They will continue to botch picks and signings which will adversely affect Ball's development. He will sign with a team that has proven pieces in place and will be a bargain PG/SG. He's just going to have a rough go with LA for the first couple of years.

[HotelVitale]

I don't think Ball is a bust yet. That being said, every year we see guys kill it in summer league and then fall on their face in the league. Kris Dunn looked much better in 2016 summer league than Ball did this year. Summer league really does not matter a whole lot as a predictive tool. It's glorified pickup ball with 75% not NBA talent. You can see whatever you want to see. We say that every year and people still get carried away with it.

Think you missed my point. SL is irrelevant for draft scouting since it happens after the draft, the reason I brought it up was to say that many players are extremely effective up to a certain point of athleticism and competition, and it's hard to figure out what that line is and what parts of people's games start falling away as they approach it.

This often happens with players who have success in college because of skill and feel/IQ but don't have dominant physical characteristics. Those players mostly won't step right in and do what they did in college in the NBA, but some can still do their thing in SL (and many thrive even more because SL has NBA athleticism and spacing without NBA defense and discipline). Prospects can also obviously adapt their skills/IQ to the NBA but that's exactly where you start to see wild unpredictability: why can Steph Curry learn to shoot 40%+ off full-speed stepback cross-overs that leave him flinging the ball against his body motion--while Lonzo loses effectiveness when he speeds up the exact same shot he had in college just a little bit? That's a stark example but this stuff is mostly about inches and half-seconds, and scouts are mostly left guessing or trying to put a percentage on something unpredictable.

(EDIT: Also, since it seems inevitable folks will read simplified or stupid agendas in this thread: I like Fultz and am excited to see him back, I just also think it's obvious that he falls into the category of prospects I'm talking about above, and that his development+outcome is a lot more unpredictable than it is for most #1 overall picks. I've said that since like Feb of last year--way before the Sixers were linked with him--and the shoulder thing doesn't change it either. I'm just trying to explain why it's difficult to predict outcomes for many players like Fultz who show an array of skills and moves that allow them to dominate in college but won't be able to do the exact same stuff in the pros.)

[Eyeamok]

I don't think Ball is a bust. He will be a great role player if they put better pieces on the team. I just don't anticipate him sticking around LA long enough for that to happen. They will continue to botch picks and signings which will adversely affect Ball's development. He will sign with a team that has proven pieces in place and will be a bargain PG/SG. He's just going to have a rough go with LA for the first couple of years.

Ball and Jah will end up on the same team and create havoc in the NBA.

[gdog2004]

Don't be surprised if you see a headline on the front page of Realgm

"Magic wanted to Trade for the #1 pick but Danny refused his call."

Sources say Magic Johnson was primed to take Jayson Tatum #1 but was unable to reach Danny Ainge before the deal with the 76ers went down. Then they had a 2nd workout with Ball who blew them away. Sources also say because of their storied NBA finals history, Danny was not about to trade the #1 pick to long time rival Magic Johnson and the Lakers."

You realize "sources" is most of the time guys just making stuff up right ?

[gdog2004]

I wasn't particularly high on Ball or Jackson but so much of this stuff is unpredictable, and no one who makes draft boards and scouts tape and stuff hits on a big majority of their projections. That said, I think most amateur scouts should be able to answer 'what can and can't this guy do right away in the NBA?' I feel like I usually do okay in draft projecting just by focusing on that; this year that meant seeing DSJ can get into the lane and do something there all day, Markkanen will get up good % shots and hustle, and Tatum can shoot, finish, and defend/rebound well enough to hold his own. (I also thought Malik Monk would be able to score right away, too, so I'm not trying to brag or say I got some kinda magic insight).

With guys like Fultz and Ball you don't really know that stuff. They were able to impact the game in many ways in college, but they're in that sweet spot where they're not athletic/quick enough to come right in and do the exact same stuff in the NBA--so how do you figure out what their overall impact will be if they won't have the same space or gaps to use their skills within? In Lonzo's case, making a projection on him comes down to a couple questions about translating; looking back on some of them now, how exactly is a scout to know that he'd be a 23% shooter from 3 rather than the 41% shooter he was in college (when he frequently took shots from NBA distance and at NBA speed)? Or how do you know the limit of talent at which he won't be able to to do his thing--in other words, why was he able to make such an impact in SL but seem overwhelmed and limited in the NBA? I'd really like to know how people claiming Ball was trash knew this stuff at draft time.

I don't think Ball is a bust yet.

That being said, every year we see guys kill it in summer league and then fall on their face in the league. Kris Dunn looked much better in 2016 summer league than Ball did this year.

How can a player EVER be considered a bust in November of his rookie year? It just doesn’t make sense. He has only played half of the teams in the league one time.

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This 1000 times over. Saying Lonzo is a bust is very premature.
You can't judge young players until they are in the league a few years and get an opportunity to play in a situation that fits their skillset. But fans don't want that, they want to declare Lonzo a bust and Simmons and Embiid for the HOF.
Not to say all of those things can't happen but it takes time. A lot of it.
Think how many people were completely out on Nelson Agholor. And he's been arguably the Eagles best WR this year.
It takes TIME.

[Eyeamok]

Don't be surprised if you see a headline on the front page of Realgm

"Magic wanted to Trade for the #1 pick but Danny refused his call."

Sources say Magic Johnson was primed to take Jayson Tatum #1 but was unable to reach Danny Ainge before the deal with the 76ers went down. Then they had a 2nd workout with Ball who blew them away. Sources also say because of their storied NBA finals history, Danny was not about to trade the #1 pick to long time rival Magic Johnson and the Lakers."

You realize "sources" is most of the time guys just making stuff up right ?

I actually thought Honey Mustard was the "sauce". Hmmmmmmm Honey Mustard !!!

[KrazySixersD]

people say this about ball not because of his stats, but because of his traits and athletic ability.. the things he cant fix are what will keep him from ever becoming a good player

[LloydFree]

I don't think Ball is a bust yet. That being said, every year we see guys kill it in summer league and then fall on their face in the league. Kris Dunn looked much better in 2016 summer league than Ball did this year. Summer league really does not matter a whole lot as a predictive tool. It's glorified pickup ball with 75% not NBA talent. You can see whatever you want to see. We say that every year and people still get carried away with it.

Think you missed my point. SL is irrelevant for draft scouting since it happens after the draft, the reason I brought it up was to say that many players are extremely effective up to a certain point of athleticism and competition, and it's hard to figure out what that line is and what parts of people's games start falling away as they approach it.

This often happens with players who have success in college because of skill and feel/IQ but don't have dominant physical characteristics. Those players mostly won't step right in and do what they did in college in the NBA, but some can still do their thing in SL (and many thrive even more because SL has NBA athleticism and spacing without NBA defense and discipline). Prospects can also obviously adapt their skills/IQ to the NBA but that's exactly where you start to see wild unpredictability: why can Steph Curry learn to shoot 40%+ off full-speed stepback cross-overs that leave him flinging the ball against his body motion--while Lonzo loses effectiveness when he speeds up the exact same shot he had in college just a little bit? That's a stark example but this stuff is mostly about inches and half-seconds, and scouts are mostly left guessing or trying to put a percentage on something unpredictable.

(EDIT: Also, since it seems inevitable folks will read simplified or stupid agendas in this thread: I like Fultz and am excited to see him back, I just also think it's obvious that he falls into the category of prospects I'm talking about above, and that his development+outcome is a lot more unpredictable than it is for most #1 overall picks. I've said that since like Feb of last year--way before the Sixers were linked with him--and the shoulder thing doesn't change it either. I'm just trying to explain why it's difficult to predict outcomes for many players like Fultz who show an array of skills and moves that allow them to dominate in college but won't be able to do the exact same stuff in the pros.)

At this early stage, its not just the average athlete that struggles to transfer their game to the pros. This is something that happens to freshman guard prospects all of the time. You are hard pressed to find Freshman guards that shoot more than 39% in their rookie years. Physical guys shoot poorly early, too. It all depends. Through 14 games, even Russell Westbrook and Bradley Beal shot 33% from the field. So Fultz shooting 33% or Ball shooting 30% early is not that meaningful for projection. To me, its sample size (and somewhat mental for diffent reasons on both players) not anything that had to be scouted in their games.