Better All Around Player: Tim Duncan vs Hakeem Olajuwon

[Coleman]

What is a set defense to you? From a system and coaching stand point defense is the most complex it has ever been.

We'll just have to disagree on Duncan and Hakeem. Hakeem is maybe a top 10 player and that's not a sure thing. Duncan is unquestionably a top 10 guy and likely top 5.

Which do you value more Talent/Prime or Longevity? I think I know the answer. I value Prime higher. I put prime and Talent higher than most.

It is a FACT that Hakeem was quicker, Faster, Jumped higher, better second effort leaper, better spin moves, better footwork, better inside game, better short mid range game, better mid range game, better dunker, better defender, better at steals, better at deflections, better at defending PnR. Better at defending PG's and SF's. Better at lighting up Hof Centers.

The only player in history that some out there think could maybe beat Jordan in a series. (I'm not necessarily one of those but I do think he's the only one in Western History or Finals history that could take Jordan to 7 games. Better long range shooter, better dribbler, better passer, better everything. But Houston had 4 players they drafted all get kicked out of the league for cocaine use during the 80's and early 90's and that hurt their playoff success somewhat. So if you want to blame him for that then I guess you can. He should've been a better leader with those players.

I don't think talent means anything. I value peak, prime, and don't value longevity a whole lot. I do however value awards and honors. Not sure why talent is even listed here...I care what they did not what they could have done.

I won't even argue with your "FACTS" which are full of incorrect statements.

You don't think Talent means anything. I'll let you take that back. how would you put a team together or draft a player. you're just looking at stats and total stats at that not averages. You're someone that would put 10 players from this era in the top 10. Also you're biased as a spurs fanatic.

Hakeem is the best all around Center ever. Duncan might be the best all around PF. Frankly I think he would struggle against the ultra quick PF's of the 80's and 90's.

[dhsilv2]

They were all calling Tim Duncan the best PF ever in 1999. how does anyone know that after just 3 seasons? Seemed a little disingenuous. Also he was going against an 8th seed without their best player in a gimmick lock out season. The NBA pushed Duncan several times because they were trying to push a clean choir boy image from 99-05.. He would average about 25 FT per game vs Dampier who was a pretty good defender. The Refs just hated Mark Cuban so they were going to give Tim Duncan all the free throws.

Hakeem did it without FREE throws and also won BACK TO BACK. Duncan never played centers like Robinson, who was considered the best center ever at the time and best defensive player ever. Ewing, O'neal.

the only top all time great center Duncan played against was Oneal but Robinson was defending him.

Please provide anything from 1999 claiming Duncan was already the best power forward ever.

[Coleman]

They said it in the Finals only about 300 times as he was playing against an injured past his prime 6'6 Larry Johnson. Did you not bother watching those finals. Every other second bob costas was saying "He's just TOO good". He's the best PF ever.

Come on don't act like people didn't anoint Tim Duncan the best PF very soon and the Spurs fans took it and ran with it because they hate Malone and Barkley.

[dhsilv2]

Which do you value more Talent/Prime or Longevity? I think I know the answer. I value Prime higher. I put prime and Talent higher than most.

It is a FACT that Hakeem was quicker, Faster, Jumped higher, better second effort leaper, better spin moves, better footwork, better inside game, better short mid range game, better mid range game, better dunker, better defender, better at steals, better at deflections, better at defending PnR. Better at defending PG's and SF's. Better at lighting up Hof Centers.

The only player in history that some out there think could maybe beat Jordan in a series. (I'm not necessarily one of those but I do think he's the only one in Western History or Finals history that could take Jordan to 7 games. Better long range shooter, better dribbler, better passer, better everything. But Houston had 4 players they drafted all get kicked out of the league for cocaine use during the 80's and early 90's and that hurt their playoff success somewhat. So if you want to blame him for that then I guess you can. He should've been a better leader with those players.

I don't think talent means anything. I value peak, prime, and don't value longevity a whole lot. I do however value awards and honors. Not sure why talent is even listed here...I care what they did not what they could have done.

I won't even argue with your "FACTS" which are full of incorrect statements.

You don't think Talent means anything. I'll let you take that back. how would you put a team together or draft a player. you're just looking at stats and total stats at that not averages. You're someone that would put 10 players from this era in the top 10. Also you're biased as a spurs fanatic.

Hakeem is the best all around Center ever. Duncan might be the best all around PF. Frankly I think he would struggle against the ultra quick PF's of the 80's and 90's.

I'd draft on talent, I review careers based on what happened.

I consider Duncan a center for whatever that's worth. I'm a big fan of Duncan because I am a big fan of Duncan, just like I'm a fan of Jordan. Unlike Jordan, there are people like yourself who grossly missed how great Duncan was.

And ultra quick power forwards of the 80's and 90's? McHale, Rodman, Bird (sf/pf), Barley, Malone....oakley, Grant, Daniels, Larry Johnson, Derick Coleman? Duncan played in easily the best power forward era in the league history and that statement is the same if he is or isn't a power forward.

[dhsilv2]

They said it in the Finals only about 300 times as he was playing against an injured past his prime 6'6 Larry Johnson. Did you not bother watching those finals. Every other second bob costas was saying "He's just TOO good". He's the best PF ever.

Come on don't act like people didn't anoint Tim Duncan the best PF very soon and the Spurs fans took it and ran with it because they hate Malone and Barkley.

Find me a video or a published article from 99.

[Coleman]

Duncan was great I don't deny that but you are denying that Hakeem was great and probably even greater for that time. Hakeem has the biggest Statistical seasons ever. Averaging numbers like 15 rebounds 5 blocks and 2 steals for full seasons several times. not to mention his 21-24 ppg. I don't see where you're trying to separate them. Just longevity, but that is only like 3-4 years of Duncan extra averaging 15 ppg and 9 rebounds. with his 2 blocks, that's great and all.

Hakeem ws throwing in 30 a night in the GOLDEN ERA. I don't care what you say. Even Tim Duncan would call the 80's and early 90's the Golden Era. Even the Late 90's. I know how good Tim is, but in a very tough half court game that is physical I would rather have Hakeem The Dream on my team.

[Coleman]

They said it in the Finals only about 300 times as he was playing against an injured past his prime 6'6 Larry Johnson. Did you not bother watching those finals. Every other second bob costas was saying "He's just TOO good". He's the best PF ever.

Come on don't act like people didn't anoint Tim Duncan the best PF very soon and the Spurs fans took it and ran with it because they hate Malone and Barkley.

Find me a video or a published article from 99.

Would it change your opinion and would you see that he was somewhat hyped. Granted he pretty much backed that up.

Duncan did have a weakness in my opinion and it was his mid range shot. Also in VERY Physical series sometimes he wouldn't get his 25 or whatever. These were more back in the 90's. and early 2000's. Also he had so many seasons of just 25 minutes 16 ppg or whatever. I don't know is that really pushing someone up the ladder. Maybe??? It's almost like Dirk with all these 14 ppg seasons he's having now. I've actually moved him DOWN the ladder. From about 22th to about 29th. Granted Duncan was still one of the top 10 players probably but Popovich was saving him for the Playoffs and not even using him either. Leonard was a great draft pick so was Parker. They are both First Ballot Hall Of Fame.

Although earlier you said Duncan was a top 20 player his final season. I dont' really think he was his final season because he was done by March. If you count that and those playoffs. He was more like the 80th best player. However the year before he was about a top 10 player.

[Coleman]

Duncan had the longer more successful career (and part of that is due to being a Spur) but you admit Hakeem was the better player and better talent.

[JordansBulls]

Gasol won DPOY and somehow made second team all defense. The award should mean something but the voters have no idea who plays good or great defense in the league.

Yeah but we are talking about Hakeem and Duncan two good defenders, so when comparing them the DPOY matters.

Peak to peak I think hakeem was a hair better defensively, but DPOY award is just a bad argument here. Duncan often lost votes because of Bowen which is really silly but those were the times.

I see what you mean, but Hakeem won multiple of those awards. Duncan winning DPOY is similar to Wade winning league MVP.

[Coleman]

I can make a better argument for Tim Duncan than you. You need to say he was MUCH bigger. He was not really 6'11. He was more like a 7'2 player when you factor in his 7'6 wingspan, size 17 feet and huge hands. His standing height right around 7 feet. High Shoulders. Tim Duncan was a lot bigger than people think.

Also he was just about even with Hakeem athletically really.

He was great in the open court at finishing the break or trailing. Faster and quicker than people think.

[bledredwine]

Tim Duncan was the better:

Rebounder (gap)
Passer (gap)

While Hakeem was

Better Scorer (big gap)

Defensively, they are very close. Based on that, I'd probably go with TD on all roundness. But Hakeem was the better player IMO.

Defensively close? Hakeem may be the GOAT defender. Duncan didn't even get a DPOY

[dhsilv2]

They said it in the Finals only about 300 times as he was playing against an injured past his prime 6'6 Larry Johnson. Did you not bother watching those finals. Every other second bob costas was saying "He's just TOO good". He's the best PF ever.

Come on don't act like people didn't anoint Tim Duncan the best PF very soon and the Spurs fans took it and ran with it because they hate Malone and Barkley.

Find me a video or a published article from 99.

Would it change your opinion and would you see that he was somewhat hyped. Granted he pretty much backed that up.

Duncan did have a weakness in my opinion and it was his mid range shot. Also in VERY Physical series sometimes he wouldn't get his 25 or whatever. These were more back in the 90's. and early 2000's. Also he had so many seasons of just 25 minutes 16 ppg or whatever. I don't know is that really pushing someone up the ladder. Maybe??? It's almost like Dirk with all these 14 ppg seasons he's having now. I've actually moved him DOWN the ladder. From about 22th to about 29th. Granted Duncan was still one of the top 10 players probably but Popovich was saving him for the Playoffs and not even using him either. Leonard was a great draft pick so was Parker. They are both First Ballot Hall Of Fame.

Although earlier you said Duncan was a top 20 player his final season. I dont' really think he was his final season because he was done by March. If you count that and those playoffs. He was more like the 80th best player. However the year before he was about a top 10 player.

1. You keep making claims you can't back up. I'd like you to do that to increase your credibility. If people were calling Duncan the best power forward ever, and not just the normal over hyping players in the playoffs by announcers, that would be news to me and would validate some of your claims a bit.
2. Duncan was well known for his mid range shot, his bank shot was something he was given insane amounts of credit for. He's not dirk and I can think of a few guys who were better, but to claim that as a weakness seems out there.
3. Duncan played 2 seasons in the 90's one of which he won the nba title. He missed the 00 playoffs, won a title as one of the greatest playoff runs ever in 03. 02 he had a great playoffs though he did shoot poorly against the lakers. Then again he was the only offensive player for the sprus that year, he had an awful supporting cast. I honestly don't remember 01 that well, but the stat line looks great. But outside of 98 his rookie year he scored more in the playoffs than regular season...so not sure what you're talking about.
4. Duncan's lowest minutes per game was his last year at 25.2, the next lowest was 28.2. Yeah Duncan scored less as he aged, yet he remained by our best metrics a top 5 defensive player. He was 2nd in RPM his last year in the league.
5. Duncan was seen as a top 10 player by 2011 if not before.
6. Pop never didn't use Duncan.
7. The fact you ahve Dirk outside the top 20 is dumbfounding.
8. Leonard was a great draft pick by the Pacers.
9. I would be ok if because of minutes one ranked Duncan out of the top 20, thought why are you talking playoffs? He was great in the playoffs.

[Coleman]

I'm watching game 1 99 Finals Duncan high lights, He is huge back then. Much bigger in his prime winged up.
Doug Collins who probably doesn't like Shaq is saying at the beginning of the game that Tim Duncan is the best player in the NBA. this in 1999 with Duncan at age 23. This a league with Prime Shaq, David Robinson, Iverson, young Bryant, Prime Garnett, Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, Prime Alonzo and Prime Finley.

[dhsilv2]

Yeah but we are talking about Hakeem and Duncan two good defenders, so when comparing them the DPOY matters.

Peak to peak I think hakeem was a hair better defensively, but DPOY award is just a bad argument here. Duncan often lost votes because of Bowen which is really silly but those were the times.

I see what you mean, but Hakeem won multiple of those awards. Duncan winning DPOY is similar to Wade winning league MVP.

Well I'll do a hot take here. Hakeem didn't deserve either of his defensive player of the year awards. That said he deserved even MORE of them in the 80's, but was snubbed. Kids today will see those awards and not realized Hakeem was a better defender in the late 80's and the first year or two of the 90's.

It's just an award that hasn't been given to the right players countless times.

[dhsilv2]

I'm watching game 1 99 Finals Duncan high lights, He is huge back then. Much bigger in his prime winged up.
Doug Collins who probably doesn't like Shaq is saying at the beginning of the game that Tim Duncan is the best player in the NBA. this in 1999 with Duncan at age 23. This a league with Prime Shaq, David Robinson, Iverson, young Bryant, Prime Garnett, Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, Prime Alonzo and Prime Finley.

Duncan had a case for best player in 99. Robinson being in his prime is iffy, mind you that was likely his last great year. Bryant was not much to talk about yet. KG was not in his prime. Ewing was done. Finley?

99 was a weird year so hard to really say much more about it. Payton, Hill, Shaq, Malone (the roids were good to him)....all really high quality years for them. But I can see Duncan in that mix. Oh and yeah good/great year for zo.

[Coleman]

Find me a video or a published article from 99.

Would it change your opinion and would you see that he was somewhat hyped. Granted he pretty much backed that up.

Duncan did have a weakness in my opinion and it was his mid range shot. Also in VERY Physical series sometimes he wouldn't get his 25 or whatever. These were more back in the 90's. and early 2000's. Also he had so many seasons of just 25 minutes 16 ppg or whatever. I don't know is that really pushing someone up the ladder. Maybe??? It's almost like Dirk with all these 14 ppg seasons he's having now. I've actually moved him DOWN the ladder. From about 22th to about 29th. Granted Duncan was still one of the top 10 players probably but Popovich was saving him for the Playoffs and not even using him either. Leonard was a great draft pick so was Parker. They are both First Ballot Hall Of Fame.

Although earlier you said Duncan was a top 20 player his final season. I dont' really think he was his final season because he was done by March. If you count that and those playoffs. He was more like the 80th best player. However the year before he was about a top 10 player.

1. You keep making claims you can't back up. I'd like you to do that to increase your credibility. If people were calling Duncan the best power forward ever, and not just the normal over hyping players in the playoffs by announcers, that would be news to me and would validate some of your claims a bit.
2. Duncan was well known for his mid range shot, his bank shot was something he was given insane amounts of credit for. He's not dirk and I can think of a few guys who were better, but to claim that as a weakness seems out there.
3. Duncan played 2 seasons in the 90's one of which he won the nba title. He missed the 00 playoffs, won a title as one of the greatest playoff runs ever in 03. 02 he had a great playoffs though he did shoot poorly against the lakers. Then again he was the only offensive player for the sprus that year, he had an awful supporting cast. I honestly don't remember 01 that well, but the stat line looks great. But outside of 98 his rookie year he scored more in the playoffs than regular season...so not sure what you're talking about.
4. Duncan's lowest minutes per game was his last year at 25.2, the next lowest was 28.2. Yeah Duncan scored less as he aged, yet he remained by our best metrics a top 5 defensive player. He was 2nd in RPM his last year in the league.
5. Duncan was seen as a top 10 player by 2011 if not before.
6. Pop never didn't use Duncan.
7. The fact you ahve Dirk outside the top 20 is dumbfounding.
8. Leonard was a great draft pick by the Pacers.
9. I would be ok if because of minutes one ranked Duncan out of the top 20, thought why are you talking playoffs? He was great in the playoffs.

you don't have to be offensive. You keep making claims you can't back up at all. I make factual claims like Hakeem won back to back and against much better competition overall. That is a FACT. Anyone can go check it at basketball reference.

or I say the league hated Cuban. That is a FACT. It's well documented. Duncan averaging 12 fta per game vs Dampier is rubbish. Probably didn't get fouled by 1-2 times per game at most. he wasn't getting fouled and you know it.

[dhsilv2]

I can make a better argument for Tim Duncan than you. You need to say he was MUCH bigger. He was not really 6'11. He was more like a 7'2 player when you factor in his 7'6 wingspan, size 17 feet and huge hands. His standing height right around 7 feet. High Shoulders. Tim Duncan was a lot bigger than people think.

Also he was just about even with Hakeem athletically really.

He was great in the open court at finishing the break or trailing. Faster and quicker than people think.

If you're watching 99 Duncan then yes. After 00 however he lost a step due to that injury. He wasn't as athletic as Hakeem over their careers. Duncan was however much better about understanding the geometry of the game.

[Coleman]

Duncan never really went against a TOP NOTCH all time defense and all time great type team like say the 92 Knicks, 93 Knicks, 94 Knicks or the 87- 89 Pistons, or the 94 Rockets or the 91-98 Bulls the best defense he played was the 05 Pistons who were not an all time great team though. Then he played a lot against Shaq and the Lakers but once again had the Twin Towers to help with Shaq. That's a big key also Phil wasn't there. When Phil was there the Lakers took pretty much all those series and especially the series they wanted to.

[dhsilv2]

Would it change your opinion and would you see that he was somewhat hyped. Granted he pretty much backed that up.

Duncan did have a weakness in my opinion and it was his mid range shot. Also in VERY Physical series sometimes he wouldn't get his 25 or whatever. These were more back in the 90's. and early 2000's. Also he had so many seasons of just 25 minutes 16 ppg or whatever. I don't know is that really pushing someone up the ladder. Maybe??? It's almost like Dirk with all these 14 ppg seasons he's having now. I've actually moved him DOWN the ladder. From about 22th to about 29th. Granted Duncan was still one of the top 10 players probably but Popovich was saving him for the Playoffs and not even using him either. Leonard was a great draft pick so was Parker. They are both First Ballot Hall Of Fame.

Although earlier you said Duncan was a top 20 player his final season. I dont' really think he was his final season because he was done by March. If you count that and those playoffs. He was more like the 80th best player. However the year before he was about a top 10 player.

1. You keep making claims you can't back up. I'd like you to do that to increase your credibility. If people were calling Duncan the best power forward ever, and not just the normal over hyping players in the playoffs by announcers, that would be news to me and would validate some of your claims a bit.
2. Duncan was well known for his mid range shot, his bank shot was something he was given insane amounts of credit for. He's not dirk and I can think of a few guys who were better, but to claim that as a weakness seems out there.
3. Duncan played 2 seasons in the 90's one of which he won the nba title. He missed the 00 playoffs, won a title as one of the greatest playoff runs ever in 03. 02 he had a great playoffs though he did shoot poorly against the lakers. Then again he was the only offensive player for the sprus that year, he had an awful supporting cast. I honestly don't remember 01 that well, but the stat line looks great. But outside of 98 his rookie year he scored more in the playoffs than regular season...so not sure what you're talking about.
4. Duncan's lowest minutes per game was his last year at 25.2, the next lowest was 28.2. Yeah Duncan scored less as he aged, yet he remained by our best metrics a top 5 defensive player. He was 2nd in RPM his last year in the league.
5. Duncan was seen as a top 10 player by 2011 if not before.
6. Pop never didn't use Duncan.
7. The fact you ahve Dirk outside the top 20 is dumbfounding.
8. Leonard was a great draft pick by the Pacers.
9. I would be ok if because of minutes one ranked Duncan out of the top 20, thought why are you talking playoffs? He was great in the playoffs.

you don't have to be offensive. You keep making claims you can't back up at all. I make factual claims like Hakeem won back to back and against much better competition overall. That is a FACT. Anyone can go check it at basketball reference.

or I say the league hated Cuban. That is a FACT. It's well documented. Duncan averaging 12 fta per game vs Dampier is rubbish. Probably didn't get fouled by 1-2 times per game at most. he wasn't getting fouled and you know it.

If i've made a claim I can't back it up, call me out. I have asked you to cite who has said that Hakeem was top 5, you can't, meanwhile I list of multiple lists from large sources and you ignore or dismiss them. I'm sorry but you can't just claim "well this sports caster said so and so was good during a game I watched" and that's it. Bill Simmons, who is hardly a guy who dislike Hakeem brought up the black hole issues in his book about Hakeem. I cite a source that I assume you have a copy on hand or your pirated a pdf as everyone on this forum has read bill's book. Meanwhile you cite bill walton, who was a great sports caster, but the guy did nothing but praise EVERYONE.

And I'm just not going to bother with your conspiracy theory stuff man. Please don't bring up refs fixing games again. It's just not worthy of discussion here. Make a new thread if you want to discuss that. We might as well not discuss basketball if we have to question everything that happened on the court being legit or not.

[dhsilv2]

Duncan never really went against a TOP NOTCH all time defense and all time great type team like say the 92 Knicks, 93 Knicks, 94 Knicks or the 87- 89 Pistons, or the 94 Rockets or the 91-98 Bulls the best defense he played was the 05 Pistons who were not an all time great team though. Then he played a lot against Shaq and the Lakers but once again had the Twin Towers to help with Shaq. That's a big key also Phil wasn't there. When Phil was there the Lakers took pretty much all those series and especially the series they wanted to.

The 87-89 pistons were never the best defense in the nba...