ImageImageImage

The state of the team

Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22

User avatar
bwgood77
Global Mod
Global Mod
Posts: 97,960
And1: 60,906
Joined: Feb 06, 2009
Location: Austin
Contact:
   

The state of the team 

Post#1 » by bwgood77 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:52 pm

It seems many fans are really unhappy with the state of the team. We came in this year without high expectations, at least from the majority of fans and especially all of the nba analysts around the league.

We were projected to have about 28.3 wins, if you look at various projections and take the average.



That's about winning 1 in 3 games. That was with Eric Bledsoe, and not Mike James or Tyler Ulis manning the point. That was without the team losing faith in Watson or his non-coaching style and setting record breaking losses to start the year.

The fact is, we are winning about 1 in 3 games, and that's without Bledsoe, and largely without Dudley, and of course with no Williams or Reed which impacts our depth. Knight was probably injured before any projections were made but doubt he would have changed anything.

Many seemed to be happy about the rebuild that we had finally committed to last summer after waffling around and wasting 5 years trying to decide whether to rebuild or try and compete to win now.

We are finally, for the first time, really playing our youngsters a lot of minutes. It definitely isn't always pretty, but at least they are getting a taste of what it's going to take in the NBA by getting time against real nba vets. For years we never played rookies as much as we played Booker, than Chriss and now Jackson, and we are also playing other really young guys as well and letting them develop.

I always felt that Chriss and Bender were very raw and would do little to nothing in their first year and would probably take a good 2-3 years to really become somewhat productive. Chriss showed some big time growth last year, and though he still does some frustrating things and seems out of place a bit, there is some positive there. Bender didn't get really any time last year and by the time they were ready to play the young guys he was injured. He slowly made his way back over the summer and has shown some nice flashes, while still being one of the youngest guys in the league.

I think many expected immediate impact from Jackson but it's rare that a rookie has THAT much of an impact immediately as there is always an adjustment period. His defense and competitiveness seem to be there and we knew his shot would be a work in process. I think some might view him as a disappointment largely in part to the fact that Tatum has started so well. A couple others have started pretty well too such as Kuzma and John Collins but not really many other rookies have, at least not consistently. Not if you REALLY watch ALL their games and take a close look at their numbers. Simmons is on fire but he is really in the NBA in his second year after working with NBA people and also was a clear cut #1 top prospect...I don't really consider him a rookie.

All in all I'm pretty happy where we are at considering I have always wanted us to build through the draft since that is the best way to sustain success long term as your players grow up as a team and are part of the community and the team continuity always makes chemistry a huge factor in success of those teams that have it (see San Antonio). We have control of all of the first round picks McD has made except Len for a long time and will get likely two more first rounders this year with long term control. Possibly even three, but if only two, it might make more sense that the Bucks pick comes later anyway. Even if the Miami pick ends up protected, we get it next year no matter what.

When you are developing young guys it might be painful at times and can be a trying process. Sometimes I'm surprised that so many who became fans during the Nash era are still hanging on as fans after the last 7 or 8 years. But even though the product is young and undeveloped, there is a clear path forward as these players grow and we are not in no mans land like we were from 2011-2016. We have young guys excited to be here who love playing together. Sure they will show their frustration, but know the meat of this team is pretty tight knit.

Success comes on dedication, education and hard work. Trying to find a quick fix similar to a get rich quick scheme so you can "win now" is likely a recipe for failure.
When asked how Fascism starts, Bertrand Russell once said:
"First, they fascinate the fools. Then, they muzzle the intelligent."
ImNotMcDiSwear
General Manager
Posts: 8,286
And1: 6,409
Joined: Dec 14, 2013
 

Re: The state of the team 

Post#2 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:32 pm

I gotta admit, I was pretty upset watching that game last night. Contention just felt so far away. I hated the fact that I looked down the bench and felt helpless - ain't nobody to look to who can come in and change the game. Hated that Bender looked so passive. Hated that JJ still looked so far away. Just hated it.

But I woke up this morning, proceeded with my day, and I have calmed down. It's important for all of us to do so, to remember that this was indeed what we signed up for, what we wanted, what we approved. It's just a whole lot easier to get the prescription than it is to take the medicine sometimes.

Booker and TJ have made huge strides this year, but they need help. They just don't need it this year. This year, what they need is a team that is engaged, focused, growing, improving. And we have that. It comes in flashes, but in flashes is how it almost always comes. Bender and Chriss aren't going to step out on the floor one day and immediately and forever after be great. If they get there, it will come in starts and stops.

Fortunately, we're not nearly as far away as we looked last night. We're not as close as we looked when we were playing Minnesota and Utah. We're somewhere in the middle there. And sometimes all it takes is adding the right player to make a huge change in the record.

We have sacrificed no part of our future to get where we are. We are getting closer to turning that corner. It just won't happen this season. Next season, I hope. And think.

GO SUNS!
User avatar
thamadkant
Suns Forum Picker of Cherries
Posts: 16,916
And1: 8,599
Joined: Jan 06, 2007
 

Re: The state of the team 

Post#3 » by thamadkant » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:57 pm

the reporter said it best... when they asked Booker about leadership.... Booker replied saying post game, they usually put on head sets and play NBA 2K against each other.


So there is hardly any leadership on the team... but time will fix that.


Bledsoe is so stoic and passive that he would not have gotten through to the youngins... so I can understand why he just wanted to be on a team who is competing and hungrier.
Damkac
Analyst
Posts: 3,142
And1: 3,062
Joined: Apr 18, 2011
Location: Poland

Re: The state of the team 

Post#4 » by Damkac » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:04 pm

The state of the team is simple.
Booker is almost guaranteed all-star.
Suns need any 2 of Bender, Chriss, Jackson and whoever will they draft next year to become all-star level players. Maybe also Warren, if he could develop good 3pt shot he would be low tier all-star imo.
If only one of those will become all-star level player then Suns should be solid playoffs team but not a real contender.
If no one from this group become all-star level player and Suns will be left with only Book as above average player then we have a big problem.
User avatar
bigfoot
Suns Forum Anti-Tank Commander
Posts: 9,838
And1: 6,483
Joined: Sep 16, 2010
 

Re: The state of the team 

Post#5 » by bigfoot » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:39 am

State of the team is dismal ... we should not be losing games by 30-40 points. Giving up 90 points is absurd.

Simply put Booker is our only star player. TJ is a legit starter but probably isn't a true star player.

Chriss in his second season hasn't shown much. Again he might be a decent role player but he not going to be an all-star. Ulis and DJJ have regressed and neither are viable bench players. Ulis maybe a third string player at best.

Basically in their first season, JJ and Bender (I'll cut him some slack) are so up and down. Neither are putting up good numbers ... by comparison Booker his rookie year was 13.8p/2.5r/2.6a. JJ is 9.7p/3.5r/1.0a and Bender is 5.5p/3.0r/0.9a neither of which are standout numbers. Both their shooting percentages are dismal and JJ is a turnover machine.

Our center and PG positions are in bad shape. Monroe is likely to be a good option but not under contract, Len is worthless, and Chandler is old. Our best PG option right now is Knight but he is injured.

Next year, adding 5 new rookies doesn't solve anything. It only makes the whole mess even worse. This year we need to trade for decent veterans or sign some good free agents to put around Booker.

We have a lame duck coach, a GM that talks about players as assets instead of people, and the most hated owner in the NBA.

Damn, we might be at the rock bottom of the barrel staring up. I sure hope it can't get any worse than it is right now.
jcsunsfan
Head Coach
Posts: 6,477
And1: 4,829
Joined: Dec 20, 2006
     

Re: The state of the team 

Post#6 » by jcsunsfan » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:52 am

Oh good grief. Half our roster is sick. We have a young team. We went up against a SSOL team that was hot. Did you see the contested threes Harden was sinking? Some of those could not have been defended better. We conceded the game (which teams do) and went to our deep bench. Good grief, we let our 11th man score 25 points! Yet the Rockets chose to continue to run their starters. I guess Harden wanted to get 50.

Its not a game to moan and groan about.
User avatar
thamadkant
Suns Forum Picker of Cherries
Posts: 16,916
And1: 8,599
Joined: Jan 06, 2007
 

Re: The state of the team 

Post#7 » by thamadkant » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:59 am

The performance against Rockets should not be taken seriously.

I think they are favorites to unsit Warriors out west and take it out all the way... assuming Paul remains healthy... and everyone else.

They are even more capable from the 3 as much as Warriors are... they need to get someone like Corey Brewer back though as he really helps, he is a good defender.


Suns are sort of being built similarly to the Rockets...
User avatar
darealjuice
Suns Forum Future All Star
Posts: 6,694
And1: 8,900
Joined: Apr 22, 2016
Location: Phoenix
   

Re: The state of the team 

Post#8 » by darealjuice » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:18 am

1UPZ wrote:the reporter said it best... when they asked Booker about leadership.... Booker replied saying post game, they usually put on head sets and play NBA 2K against each other.


So there is hardly any leadership on the team... but time will fix that.


Bledsoe is so stoic and passive that he would not have gotten through to the youngins... so I can understand why he just wanted to be on a team who is competing and hungrier.


That's not even close to what was asked when Booker said that lol....
Mulhollanddrive
RealGM
Posts: 12,555
And1: 8,337
Joined: Jan 19, 2013

Re: The state of the team 

Post#9 » by Mulhollanddrive » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:06 am

I give us a pass because we have either a no.1 or no.2 player on a championship team in Devin Booker.

Ideally we'll develop another All-Star from our bucket of lottery picks from 2013-2019 and that'll get us 10 years of a star duo.

I don't really care about the rest like records during tanking or past coaches or role players etc...
User avatar
MathiasPW
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,688
And1: 2,807
Joined: Jan 02, 2010
Location: Brazil
   

Re: The state of the team 

Post#10 » by MathiasPW » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:27 am

As long as the state of the team is Arizona....
Image
User avatar
bwgood77
Global Mod
Global Mod
Posts: 97,960
And1: 60,906
Joined: Feb 06, 2009
Location: Austin
Contact:
   

Re: The state of the team 

Post#11 » by bwgood77 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:08 am

darealjuice wrote:
1UPZ wrote:the reporter said it best... when they asked Booker about leadership.... Booker replied saying post game, they usually put on head sets and play NBA 2K against each other.


So there is hardly any leadership on the team... but time will fix that.


Bledsoe is so stoic and passive that he would not have gotten through to the youngins... so I can understand why he just wanted to be on a team who is competing and hungrier.


That's not even close to what was asked when Booker said that lol....


That's exactly what I was thinking. When I read this I thought "My impression from him saying that was positive...I thought they were talking about what they do in their free time and unity or something...I don't remember anything about leadership" but couldn't remember for sure. I'm glad you pointed that out because I thought it was a positive thing that they did things together..made me think they were close as a team.
When asked how Fascism starts, Bertrand Russell once said:
"First, they fascinate the fools. Then, they muzzle the intelligent."
User avatar
ATTL
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 16,624
And1: 8,483
Joined: Aug 24, 2003
Location: Moms basement
   

Re: The state of the team 

Post#12 » by ATTL » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:02 am

I wasn't expecting a good season. I was expecting more from chriss, JJ, ulis, and bender. I was hoping for a top 3 pick next summer.
BoomShakaLuka
Ballboy
Posts: 30
And1: 43
Joined: Jul 15, 2015
   

Re: The state of the team 

Post#13 » by BoomShakaLuka » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:26 am

Ryan McDonough had his chance to cash in his chips for Kyrie Irving but he refused to trade Josh Jackson. That leads me to believe that Ryan McDonough has no idea what the hell he's doing and should've been fired as GM by now. He's been playing musical chairs with point guards the past four years. He's also been making stupid free agent expenditures like: Tyson Chandler, and Jared Dudley and handing $70 million to Brandon Knight who's been a spectacular failure in a Suns uniform and is signed through 2020. The state of the team improves when Robert Sarver either sells the Suns or finally gets his head out of his ass and actually spends the money on a GM who knows what the hell he's doing.
Hesh
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,250
And1: 1,142
Joined: Sep 27, 2014
 

Re: The state of the team 

Post#14 » by Hesh » Fri Dec 1, 2017 1:24 pm

"It’s not just that, it’s the season ticket-holder events and the suite-holder events and the media three times a day on gameday,” he said. “I’m about basketball. I’m envious right now that our assistant coaches are in there getting ready for the game and I’m out here talking to you.”- Jay Triano
jcsunsfan
Head Coach
Posts: 6,477
And1: 4,829
Joined: Dec 20, 2006
     

Re: The state of the team 

Post#15 » by jcsunsfan » Fri Dec 1, 2017 3:59 pm

BoomShakaLuka wrote:Ryan McDonough had his chance to cash in his chips for Kyrie Irving but he refused to trade Josh Jackson. That leads me to believe that Ryan McDonough has no idea what the hell he's doing and should've been fired as GM by now. He's been playing musical chairs with point guards the past four years. He's also been making stupid free agent expenditures like: Tyson Chandler, and Jared Dudley and handing $70 million to Brandon Knight who's been a spectacular failure in a Suns uniform and is signed through 2020. The state of the team improves when Robert Sarver either sells the Suns or finally gets his head out of his ass and actually spends the money on a GM who knows what the hell he's doing.


Wow. YOu know something none of us do. Word is that the Kyrie trade got dusted because Kyrie's camp said they did not want to come here. That would have been a problem, especially because he only has a two year deal. I would have fired him for giving up our young assets for a disgruntled player that would walk in the summer of 2019--right at the moment we are targeting to really be competitive.
bhawk
Pro Prospect
Posts: 797
And1: 713
Joined: Jan 12, 2008
Location: Denver, CO
     

Re: The state of the team 

Post#16 » by bhawk » Fri Dec 1, 2017 5:15 pm

The team is Y-O-U-N-G. They are developing and the team does not have a "starting" quality point guard. I think this is by design and part of the McD and Sarver BiG-Picture plan.

Len is gonzo. I'm over it.

Not happy with Chriss and it looks like he is going to bust. He was never the brightest bulb and I don't think he will ever breakthrough. His ceiling is Markieff Morris including the legal troubles (I know that is harsh). I wanted him to be the second coming of Amare as much as anyone - but he just isn't.

Bender. Flashes potential and I think he could break through... someday.

Jackson. Jury is still out. Needs to commit to improving both his shot and handle. Will take time.

Ulis. He is long shot to hit his IT ceiling. His shooting % is not good and may never get there. On any other team, he is D-League. But on this team he will be a perennial back-up PG... mostly because of his Booker relationship.

Warren. Surprisingly and sneaking good. Great scorer. Improving on D. Should be a good player for many years... just no more head injuries... and needs to work on self-confidence.

Booker. All-Star in the making and the foundation of the franchise.

Those are the only players that matter - Right?

What's next?

Let's embrace this bad (young) team and TANK! It sucks that we have to wait until this summer and next year to improve, but that is the reality of the situation.

The 2018 draft appears to be a very, VERY good class. Dare I say generational? Yes, for those keeping track at home, I did say the same thing about the 2017 class and it turned out not to be "generational", but this time I mean it. :)

I think we are 8-10 deep in terms of franchise players. Bagley, Ayton, Porter (hurt), Wendell Carter, Jaren Jackson, McCoy, Donic, Knox, Sexton, Bridges, Robert Williams... Mitchell Robinson will be a steal late. These current college athletes are all as good as or better than Chriss, Bender and Jackson - RIGHT NOW.

Quick fun exercise. Rank Fultz, Ball, Tatum, Jackson, DSJ, Issac vs. your 2018 top ten + Chriss and Bender. I'll post this to the Draft Thread.

Keep the TANK alive!
WeekapaugGroove
RealGM
Posts: 24,538
And1: 20,241
Joined: Feb 07, 2010

Re: RE: Re: The state of the team 

Post#17 » by WeekapaugGroove » Fri Dec 1, 2017 5:28 pm

bhawk wrote:The team is Y-O-U-N-G. They are developing and the team does not have a "starting" quality point guard. I think this is by design and part of the McD and Sarver BiG-Picture plan.

Len is gonzo. I'm over it.

Not happy with Chriss and it looks like he is going to bust. He was never the brightest bulb and I don't think he will ever breakthrough. His ceiling is Markieff Morris including the legal troubles (I know that is harsh). I wanted him to be the second coming of Amare as much as anyone - but he just isn't.

Bender. Flashes potential and I think he could break through... someday.

Jackson. Jury is still out. Needs to commit to improving both his shot and handle. Will take time.

Ulis. He is long shot to hit his IT ceiling. His shooting % is not good and may never get there. On any other team, he is D-League. But on this team he will be a perennial back-up PG... mostly because of his Booker relationship.

Warren. Surprisingly and sneaking good. Great scorer. Improving on D. Should be a good player for many years... just no more head injuries... and needs to work on self-confidence.

Booker. All-Star in the making and the foundation of the franchise.

Those are all only the players that matter - Right?

What's next?

Let's embrace this bad (young) team and TANK! It sucks that we have to wait until this summer and next year to improve, but that is the reality of the situation.

The 2018 draft appears to be a very, VERY good class. Dare I say generational? Yes, for those keeping track at home, I did say the same thing about the 2017 class and it turned out not to be "generational", but this time I mean it.

I think we are 8-10 deep in terms of franchise players. Bagley, Ayton, Porter (hurt), Wendell Carter, Jaren Jackson, McCoy, Donic, Knox, Sexton, Bridges, Robert Williams... Mitchell Robinson will be a steal late. These current college athletes are all as good as or better than Chriss, Bender and Jackson - RIGHT NOW.

Quick fun exercise. Rank Fultz, Ball, Tatum, Jackson, DSJ, Issac vs. your 2018 top ten + Chriss and Bender. I'll post this to the Draft Thread.

Keep the TANK alive!

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. I'd add that I think reed is a sleeper and could be a real nice piece once he gets healthy.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!-H.S.T.
Stribor
Pro Prospect
Posts: 831
And1: 571
Joined: Jun 10, 2017
 

Re: The state of the team 

Post#18 » by Stribor » Mon Dec 4, 2017 10:27 pm

Hi. Suns are my favorite western team by far. I really really hope you will pass on pure athleticism and bring someone with technique ready. Please no Bagley, you will have fourth large athlete that does not know how to shoot. You CANT depend on Booker for all the shoots however good he is. And he is great, but needs someone else...
User avatar
TASTIC
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 18,409
And1: 2,424
Joined: May 17, 2004
Location: New Zealand
   

Re: The state of the team 

Post#19 » by TASTIC » Mon Dec 4, 2017 11:34 pm

One thing that bothers me - for all his 'leadership' qualities, you never see or hear anything from Chandler unless he throws down a massive dunk/alley oop.

Where is he barking at players for not rotating or getting back or boxing out etc? He's not vocal enough.

Dudley being fit and healthy...Is he EVER going to be in game shape? Dude is constantly overweight and not in shape. This is your JOB, you are paid multi-millions of dollars to play a game. I love the qualities and also hit fit on the team, but I really think enough is enough and he needs to shed 15-20lb, even just to lead by example about work ethic etc!

I also seriously worry about Booker's thought process. How long is he going to keep stomaching these losses and basically being a superstar in waiting while the front office/other prospects develop so slowly and none show anything close to his potential.

Bender - with added minutes he's looked much better...But I'm not sure if he's aggressive enough, and if he was, whether his body could handle it. He has real potential as a stretch 4-5 though, more than Chriss.

Chriss...I (stupidly) thought he was going to be Sheed 2.0 - that rare stretch 4-5 with shot-blocking abilities and above average athleticism. Losing the starting gig early seemed to mess with his game, but I do agree with Triano that he needs to earn it. He gives me way too much of a Morris twin vibe in terms of disgruntled expressions, a finger-pointing attitude, and a lack of the team first mentality we need. Again, like Bender, he has that potential, still.

Jackson is such a bad shooter, but we all kind of expected that with that form, right? 39% from the field, 24% from 3pt, 52% from the line. Shooting can be coached, so I'm not worried there but I thought he'd be more like a 44-32-75 guy early on. The per 36min stats are encouraging though - 15.6pt 6.2reb (little low) 1.8ast 2.1stl 0.4blk. He can handle better than I expected, but if I was McD or Triano I would lock him in a room and tell him to BE SHAWN MARION. Which leads me to my next point...

We have the worst PG rotation in Suns history IMO. A healthy Knight won't fix that either. We either need to nail a draft pick, try and trade for a PG that can co-exist with Booker (ie Beverly...who is out, or Brogdon...who we didn't get obviously, or an Avery Bradley type who can defend 1s...but too expensive after this season), or throw some cash at next year's FA point guards, like Marcus Smart...But there are F all good FA point guards next season: http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-salaries/nba-free-agents-2018-2019/

So that's me typing this out at lunch, having seen that we are expected to lose to Philly by 11 or more today.

I haven't been posting much this season, partially due to bouncing round between friend and family as we look for a house (bought our first last week, very excited) and also the complete lack of any plan I feel the Suns have. Again, I am seriously concerned and almost expect a 'Booker Requests Trade' headline at any moment...

Return to Phoenix Suns