Markelle Fultz Discussion II

[Sixerscan]

I don't think Ball is having a much worse a start than Fox is. Just the downside of the spotlight.

Heck if Ball was only asked to do what Ntilikina does he would probably be thought of positively.

[cksdayoff]

yeah, fox is probably gonna be a good player down the road but the guy can't shoot. that was my biggest concern with him and the reason why he wasn't anywhere on my radar before the draft. but of course he drains a 15 foot game winner against the sixers

[HotelVitale]

At this early stage, its not just the average athlete that struggles to transfer their game to the pros. This is something that happens to freshman guard prospects all of the time. You are hard pressed to find Freshman guards that shoot more than 39% in their rookie years. Physical guys shoot poorly early, too. It all depends. Through 14 games, even Russell Westbrook and Bradley Beal shot 33% from the field. So Fultz shooting 33% or Ball shooting 30% early is not that meaningful for projection. To me, its sample size (and somewhat mental for diffent reasons on both players) not anything that had to be scouted in their games.

I was talking about projecting in the long term (don't care about the growing pains stuff and go by the usual looking for flashes in rookies). Point was, when I look at say Dennis Smith I can tell how he'll be able to make things happen on offense; even if he's inefficient or clunky or keeps dribbling the ball of the defender's foot for the first six months, I know that he has the ability to base his game on that. With someone like Fultz, I like his tools and size but I don't know what exactly he'll base his game in the NBA, and how much of what worked in college will even be an option in the NBA. (I know he can run pn'r but I don't know if he can do the stuff he did in the pn'r against NBA defenses.)

As for Ball's shooting, I think we're on the same page: at draft time, we couldn't know (and can't know now) how good of a shooter he'd become over time, and the scouting could only tell you 'weird form but he made shots consistently with quick release and more than NBA range.' Unless you're dealing with an obvious beautiful shooter--a Curry or Redick with a long track record--shooting is variable and difficult to project, and I try to look more at ability to get off good shots or to get to sweet spots.

[LloydFree]

At this early stage, its not just the average athlete that struggles to transfer their game to the pros. This is something that happens to freshman guard prospects all of the time. You are hard pressed to find Freshman guards that shoot more than 39% in their rookie years. Physical guys shoot poorly early, too. It all depends. Through 14 games, even Russell Westbrook and Bradley Beal shot 33% from the field. So Fultz shooting 33% or Ball shooting 30% early is not that meaningful for projection. To me, its sample size (and somewhat mental for diffent reasons on both players) not anything that had to be scouted in their games.

I was talking about projecting in the long term (don't care about the growing pains stuff and go by the usual looking for flashes in rookies). Point was, when I look at say Dennis Smith I can tell how he'll be able to make things happen on offense; even if he's inefficient or clunky or keeps dribbling the ball of the defender's foot for the first six months, I know that he has the ability to base his game on that. With someone like Fultz, I like his tools and size but I don't know what exactly he'll base his game in the NBA, and how much of what worked in college will even be an option in the NBA. (I know he can run pn'r but I don't know if he can do the stuff he did in the pn'r against NBA defenses.)

As for Ball's shooting, I think we're on the same page: at draft time, we couldn't know (and can't know now) how good of a shooter he'd become over time, and the scouting could only tell you 'weird form but he made shots consistently with quick release and more than NBA range.' Unless you're dealing with an obvious beautiful shooter--a Curry or Redick with a long track record--shooting is variable and difficult to project, and I try to look more at ability to get off good shots or to get to sweet spots.

But again, a lot of this is mental and has nothing to do with scouting their physical abilities. If Ball was incapable of getting open or wasn't adjusting properly to the longer distance, you could point to a scouting miss. That's not what's happening. He's not even being contested. He's just standing by himself, missing wide open shots. That's not scouting, because he made all of his wide open shots at UCLA. That's mental. The moment is too big for him right now.

[HotelVitale]

But again, a lot of this is mental and has nothing to do with scouting their physical abilities. If Ball was incapable of getting open or wasn't adjusting properly to the longer distance, you cold point to a scouting miss. That's not what's happening. He's not even being contested. He's just standing by himself, missing wide open shots. That's not scouting, because he made all of his wide open shots at UCLA. That's mental. The moment is too big for him right now.

I don't like to get too much into speculation on causes, could be mental/confidence or could be that his muscles, rhythm, etc are off because of the new pace and size/speed of defenders, or could be that he was just sort of hot the whole year at UCLA and he actually can't reliably hit open shots. Same reason I don't like to bother speculating what's up with Fultz--even he himself probably doesn't know which of these it actually is.

All are part of the set of unpredictable factors that make/break shooters and playmakers (Stauskas and Justin Anderson are examples of each, maybe Kendall Marshall and Sergio and TLC too). Lot of reasons why having the technical/theoretical ability to do something doesn't mean you actually can and will do it in NBA games.

[Simmons25]

This is dumb. Lavar either hurt, or had no effect on his draft stock. There is no way that anyone would look at Lavar and have it increase their desire to draft his son.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm just commenting on what was reported. Making a decision based on anything other than the player's evaluation is beyond stupid. Him being from LA should have absolutely no bearing on the decision.

I meant that what Broussard said was dumb, and not what you said.

Levar gets more eyeballs on Lonzo, but he doesn’t make him a better basketball player.


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Oh I think there is absolutely no doubt that Lavar continually talking up his son and being in the media especially in LA meant that the hype that it created (I mean the dude was on ESPN like nearly every day) meant the Lakers were virtually forced into taking him #2. I don't think he was ever a #2 talent. ESPN initially had him ranked 4.

You look at some of the scouting reports and mock drafts... BEFORE the Lakers won the pick in the lottery and moved up to #2 and they had Lonzo going to the Lakers but at pick #3 where they thought the Lakers would end up. Never a thought he was a top 2 talent prior.

There was definitely a feeling of almost foregone conclusion after all the Lavar jaw smacking about Lonzo being the next Magic and only working out for and going to the Lakers and the Big Baller Brand... that the Lakers were picking him up regardless.

Then remember there was heaps of talk prior to the draft that when Lonzo was working out for the Lakers they started getting concerned about what they were seeing. In a draft this stacked... you don't take a guy at #2 if you are having "concerns" about him being a star.

Make no mistake... the Lakers were almost forced into picking Lonzo because of all the hype that was created. Their gut feeling though was starting to tell them not to. 14 games into the season it looks like their gut was right.

https://nypost.com/2017/06/05/the-first-lonzo-ball-doubts-are-creeping-into-lakers-heads/

Read on Twitter

Lakers president Magic Johnson has publicly been supportive of LaVar’s antics, comparing him to Kardashian matriarch Kris Jenner in a positive way. But there does not appear to be a huge gulf between Lonzo Ball and those behind him. Kansas forward Josh Jackson and Kentucky point guard De’Aaron Fox, who dominated Ball and UCLA in the Sweet 16, are right behind Ball in draft forecasts.

For most players, it would be no shame to fall a spot or two in the draft, but it would feel catastrophic for Ball. LaVar has been pushing for months for the Lakers — the hometown team for the Southern California family — to draft Lonzo, and even the soft-spoken player was filmed celebrating when the Lakers got the No. 2 pick in the lottery.

“I know I must be a genius to plan it this well,” LaVar said after the lottery. “His number has always been No. 2, and guess where he’s going? No. 2. To the Lakers, baby.”

It still seems likely Ball goes to the Lakers at No. 2. Leaks like this are not uncommon with the draft now two-and-a-half weeks away. But the risk is there, and the stakes are high for Lonzo and LaVar.

[76ciology]

Boston's Tatum thread talks about Fultz.
Sixers' Fultz thread talks about Lonzo.

[JojoSlimbiid]

Boston's Tatum thread talks about Fultz.
Sixers' Fultz thread talks about Lonzo.

I mean ours is a bit more excusable since he hasn't played really. The Celtics talking about him just reeks of insecurity. Just look at the Ringer every week there are 2-3 Fultz articles. It's like Bill Simmons has a mandatory Fultz quota, it's insane how uncomfortable Celtic fans feel about that trade despite it looking really good for them now.

[Unbreakable99]

Boston's Tatum thread talks about Fultz.
Sixers' Fultz thread talks about Lonzo.

I mean ours is a bit more excusable since he hasn't played really. The Celtics talking about him just reeks of insecurity. Just look at the Ringer every week there are 2-3 Fultz articles. It's like Bill Simmons has a mandatory Fultz quota, it's insane how uncomfortable Celtic fans feel about that trade despite it looking really good for them now.

I doubt it. They are just very happy with Tatum and happy they passed on Fultz. They love the fact that Fultz isn’t no playing and Tatum is balling out and most people would take Tatum number one in a redraft.

[Black Mage]

At this point I don't even care if Tatum ends up the better player. I just want Fultz to come back and have at least a solid NBA career.

It would stink if he didn't live up to the expectations of a top pick, but with Embiid and Simmons we just need him to at least be that sound role player and second unit leader who can keep the offense humming.

[JojoSlimbiid]

Boston's Tatum thread talks about Fultz.
Sixers' Fultz thread talks about Lonzo.

I mean ours is a bit more excusable since he hasn't played really. The Celtics talking about him just reeks of insecurity. Just look at the Ringer every week there are 2-3 Fultz articles. It's like Bill Simmons has a mandatory Fultz quota, it's insane how uncomfortable Celtic fans feel about that trade despite it looking really good for them now.

I doubt it. They are just very happy with Tatum and happy they passed on Fultz. They love the fact that Fultz isn’t no playing and Tatum is balling out and most people would take Tatum number one in a redraft.

I'm also sure that they aren't at all concerned about Fultz. It's not like their Fultz thread is almost double the size of any Tatum related thread on their forum. Same people who would of taken Tyreke Evans #1 in a redraft after his first two years.

To the second point I'm sure most people would take Tatum number 1 in a redraft. Most people are dumb and reactionary.

[76ciology]

I like to put all the doubters of fultz in one bandwagon then call them all out once he plays well. Too boring no challengers now. All people trusting the process.

[LloydFree]

At this point I don't even care if Tatum ends up the better player. I just want Fultz to come back and have at least a solid NBA career.

It would stink if he didn't live up to the expectations of a top pick, but with Embiid and Simmons we just need him to at least be that sound role player and second unit leader who can keep the offense humming.

Oh, he can do that. It was just stupid to trade up to get him. He can grow into being a solid NBA player, he just isn't a star caliber talent.

[Simmons25]

Boston's Tatum thread talks about Fultz.
Sixers' Fultz thread talks about Lonzo.

I mean ours is a bit more excusable since he hasn't played really. The Celtics talking about him just reeks of insecurity. Just look at the Ringer every week there are 2-3 Fultz articles. It's like Bill Simmons has a mandatory Fultz quota, it's insane how uncomfortable Celtic fans feel about that trade despite it looking really good for them now.

I doubt it. They are just very happy with Tatum and happy they passed on Fultz. They love the fact that Fultz isn’t no playing and Tatum is balling out and most people would take Tatum number one in a redraft.

I think most people thought the trade was best for both teams. Boston didn't want a point guard/shooting guard (They had IT and then Irving) and we needed a combo guard who happened to be consensus #1 pick in the draft.

Not sure why Celtics fans are happy about Fultz not playing. What they should really be ecstatic about is that Josh Jackson told Danny Ainge to go f himself whilst on a plane... because that is what really saved them from having a disastrous draft.

[Ryuzaki]

Boston's Tatum thread talks about Fultz.
Sixers' Fultz thread talks about Lonzo.

I mean ours is a bit more excusable since he hasn't played really. The Celtics talking about him just reeks of insecurity. Just look at the Ringer every week there are 2-3 Fultz articles. It's like Bill Simmons has a mandatory Fultz quota, it's insane how uncomfortable Celtic fans feel about that trade despite it looking really good for them now.

I doubt it. They are just very happy with Tatum and happy they passed on Fultz. They love the fact that Fultz isn’t no playing and Tatum is balling out and most people would take Tatum number one in a redraft.

Yes because the point of the NBA entry draft is to draft the prospect that plays the best in the first 3 weeks of their rookie season lol

[76ciology]

FWIW, Tatum projects to be a good impact player. He plays mature of his age and like Fultz, they're almost a year younger than Ball.

Tatum has that NBA IQ something I didnt expect early on because of his ISO offense and poor D at duke. He understands the game. He has good skillset and very good length to be special.

[SavageBel]

When is Fultz reevaluation? I'm still excited to see him play.

[Negrodamus]

When is Fultz reevaluation? I'm still excited to see him play.

Probably yesterday.

[Unbreakable99]

I mean ours is a bit more excusable since he hasn't played really. The Celtics talking about him just reeks of insecurity. Just look at the Ringer every week there are 2-3 Fultz articles. It's like Bill Simmons has a mandatory Fultz quota, it's insane how uncomfortable Celtic fans feel about that trade despite it looking really good for them now.

I doubt it. They are just very happy with Tatum and happy they passed on Fultz. They love the fact that Fultz isn’t no playing and Tatum is balling out and most people would take Tatum number one in a redraft.

I think most people thought the trade was best for both teams. Boston didn't want a point guard/shooting guard (They had IT and then Irving) and we needed a combo guard who happened to be consensus #1 pick in the draft.

Not sure why Celtics fans are happy about Fultz not playing. What they should really be ecstatic about is that Josh Jackson told Danny Ainge to go f himself whilst on a plane... because that is what really saved them from having a disastrous draft.

It doesn’t matter what happened. Ainge got the better end of the trade. It was obvious then and even more obvious now. And we both know why Celtics fans are happy Fultz isn’t playing. It’s becausr he plays for a division rival and most people thought Fultz was the best prospect so it makes them feel good most people were wrong so they want to see Fultz fail. Seeing him fail will make them even happier. I hate Boston fans. They are so unbearable. BC did this. He and the Cavs just helped the Celtics tremendously. The Cavs gave them Kyrie and we gave them a high draft pick in 2028 or 2019.

[Cheatergriffin]

I doubt it. They are just very happy with Tatum and happy they passed on Fultz. They love the fact that Fultz isn’t no playing and Tatum is balling out and most people would take Tatum number one in a redraft.

I think most people thought the trade was best for both teams. Boston didn't want a point guard/shooting guard (They had IT and then Irving) and we needed a combo guard who happened to be consensus #1 pick in the draft.

Not sure why Celtics fans are happy about Fultz not playing. What they should really be ecstatic about is that Josh Jackson told Danny Ainge to go f himself whilst on a plane... because that is what really saved them from having a disastrous draft.

It doesn’t matter what happened. Ainge got the better end of the trade. It was obvious then and even more obvious now. And we both know why Celtics fans are happy Fultz isn’t playing. It’s becausr he plays for a division rival and most people thought Fultz was the best prospect so it makes them feel good most people were wrong so they want to see Fultz fail. Seeing him fail will make them even happier. I hate Boston fans. They are so unbearable. BC did this. He and the Cavs just helped the Celtics tremendously. The Cavs gave them Kyrie and we gave them a high draft pick in 2028 or 2019.

So we are determining trades now as clear winners after 15 games of the first year the trade takes place? Way too early to say anything was obvious about that trade. Does it seem like boston won the trade now? Yes. Has fultz only played 4 games w/ a flukey injury and questionable mechanics on his shot? Yes. Does tatum look good? Yes.

Still think its way too early to give winners and losers in a trade involving rookies. Boston fans probably thought marcus smart was a better pick too than embiid at the time. Give it time