Question on Westbrook

[nic4747]

Hey all,

Just curious to get Thunder fan's prospective on the team's slow start this season, since I haven't seen too many of the games. Personally, I would think it natural for a team to not immediately gel when you are trying to incorporate 3 ball dominant players into a single lineup, and that things will get better with time. I have lurked on these forums a bit and know that some take issue with the coaching and / or Melo, but my question is, do you think some of the blame is attributable to Westbrook and his style of play / ability to quarterback the offense, etc, or is Westbrook pretty much blameless here? Again, I haven't seen many games so I don't have any personal opinion one way or the other, I'm just curious what everyone thinks.

[bondom34]

Hey all,

Just curious to get Thunder fan's prospective on the team's slow start this season, since I haven't seen too many of the games. Personally, I would think it natural for a team to not immediately gel when you are trying to incorporate 3 ball dominant players into a single lineup, and that things will get better with time. I have lurked on these forums a bit and know that some take issue with the coaching and / or Melo, but my question is, do you think some of the blame is attributable to Westbrook and his style of play / ability to quarterback the offense, etc, or is Westbrook pretty much blameless here? Again, I haven't seen many games so I don't have any personal opinion one way or the other, I'm just curious what everyone thinks.

Blameless no. But it's not because he can't run an offense, its because he just has been off. Poor shooting relative to normal, didn't look as explosive. Most of it was just feeling out. He's been a part of elite offenses for years.

[oken]

If Donovan was Popovich and team was going downhill, all the fault would be on Russ but this is Thunder. Billy is the kind of coach that wants everyone to figure it out for themselves thus slow learners take much more than usual to adapt to it. And sometimes they don't at all. Also the requirement to push the team to playoffs every year regardless of the player development has broken him.
E.g. Kanter is benched immediately when he forgets to raise his hands on defense regardless of the minute or score on the Knicks. Here we only know that Donovan liked to complain to Mo Cheeks about it and maybe was drawing Kanter's face on the punchbags at his gym.

[bondom34]

If Donovan was Popovich and team was going downhill, all the fault would be on Russ but this is Thunder. Billy is the kind of coach that wants everyone to figure it out for themselves thus slow learners take much more than usual to adapt to it. And sometimes they don't at all. Also the requirement to push the team to playoffs every year regardless of the player development has broken him.
E.g. Kanter is benched immediately when he forgets to raise his hands on defense regardless of the minute or score on the Knicks. Here we only know that Donovan liked to complain to Mo Cheeks about it and maybe was drawing Kanter's face on the punchbags at his gym.

Kanter literally was benched an entire playoff series.

[oken]

If Donovan was Popovich and team was going downhill, all the fault would be on Russ but this is Thunder. Billy is the kind of coach that wants everyone to figure it out for themselves thus slow learners take much more than usual to adapt to it. And sometimes they don't at all. Also the requirement to push the team to playoffs every year regardless of the player development has broken him.
E.g. Kanter is benched immediately when he forgets to raise his hands on defense regardless of the minute or score on the Knicks. Here we only know that Donovan liked to complain to Mo Cheeks about it and maybe was drawing Kanter's face on the punchbags at his gym.

Kanter literally was benched an entire playoff series.

That's my point literally. To bench a player when it would be productive, not during playoffs (and undermining his value by shaming him in front of national media) which is counterproductive. Billy was always stressed out to reach the ultimate goal of reaching the CF or at least not missing the playoffs last year which made him do very uncharacteristic things like letting Kanter do whatever he wants with the second team as long as it brought some form of scoring. He is in the path of becoming the Tyronn Lue of the Western Conference.

[bondom34]

If Donovan was Popovich and team was going downhill, all the fault would be on Russ but this is Thunder. Billy is the kind of coach that wants everyone to figure it out for themselves thus slow learners take much more than usual to adapt to it. And sometimes they don't at all. Also the requirement to push the team to playoffs every year regardless of the player development has broken him.
E.g. Kanter is benched immediately when he forgets to raise his hands on defense regardless of the minute or score on the Knicks. Here we only know that Donovan liked to complain to Mo Cheeks about it and maybe was drawing Kanter's face on the punchbags at his gym.

Kanter literally was benched an entire playoff series.

That's my point literally. To bench a player when it would be productive, not during playoffs (and undermining his value by shaming him in front of national media) which is counterproductive. Billy was always stressed out to reach the ultimate goal of reaching the CF or at least not missing the playoffs last year which made him do very uncharacteristic things like letting Kanter do whatever he wants with the second team as long as it brought some form of scoring. He is in the path of becoming the Tyronn Lue of the Western Conference.

Hes a poor coach, but he handled Kanter well.

I don't see your point or its relationship here.

[oken]

Hes a poor coach, but he handled Kanter well.

I don't see your point or its relationship here.

NO he didn't. A good coach is the one that alters the play to his player's strengths. Donovan only complained. Team got killed by high Harden PnRs all day long and he only faulted his personnel. Below is an examples of what Hornacek did during similar situations during the games. What I mean is a good coach can hide defensive liabilities by drawing better plays and utilises a reward/punishment scheme. Donovan has done none of these 2.

This is from Knicks-Pacers game. Please note all bigs not just Kanter are torched by high PnR in first half.

Watch on YouTube

[bondom34]

Hes a poor coach, but he handled Kanter well.

I don't see your point or its relationship here.

NO he didn't. A good coach is the one that alters the play to his player's strengths. Donovan only complained. Team got killed by high Harden PnRs all day long and he only faulted his personnel. Below is an examples of what Hornacek did during similar situations during the games. What I mean is a good coach can hide defensive liabilities by drawing better plays and utilises a reward/punishment scheme. Donovan has done none of these 2.

This is from Knicks-Pacers game. Please note all bigs not just Kanter are torched by high PnR in first half.

Watch on YouTube

Kanter doesn't have any ability to defend a pick and roll.

And you're saying he should bench Russ?

[oken]

Another note regarding the main question, one of the main weaknesses of Russ is that he still does not act like a veteran player. I cannot distinguish him from a sophomore PG who wants to take over the world by his youth and energy. See below Jarret Jack shoving and shouting at Kanter to put him into correct position on defense on nearly every position. Russ is too self centered to be able to make such positive contributions to the team game. He may never be a real "vet".

Also think of the supposed "veteran" PGs we had to endure over these years. One eyed Jack is a guy playing for his bread now but it seems to have made him a much wiser man.

Watch on YouTube

[bondom34]

Yeah I'm mostly confused as to why you're bringing the Knicks up. Jack is bad.

[oken]

Yeah I'm mostly confused as to why you're bringing the Knicks up. Jack is bad.

It's normal with the age. I will bring up Pacers next time to make it clearer.
#respectfortheretired

[bondom34]

Yeah I'm mostly confused as to why you're bringing the Knicks up. Jack is bad.

It's normal with the age. I will bring up Pacers next time to make it clearer.
#respectfortheretired

I know he makes boneheaded plays sometimes. Collison isn't that good either. He's a backup.

Russ's start isn't related to Donovan.

[RalphSampsonJr]

Another note regarding the main question, one of the main weaknesses of Russ is that he still does not act like a veteran player. I cannot distinguish him from a sophomore PG who wants to take over the world by his youth and energy. See below Jarret Jack shoving and shouting at Kanter to put him into correct position on defense on nearly every position. Russ is too self centered to be able to make such positive contributions to the team game. He may never be a real "vet".

Also think of the supposed "veteran" PGs we had to endure over these years. One eyed Jack is a guy playing for his bread now but it seems to have made him a much wiser man.

Watch on YouTube

Donovan didn't exactly know the camera was going to be focused on him the exact 2 seconds it took for him to say "can't play Kanter" so you can't get too upset about that...

Russ didn't exactly tell Kanter where to be on D because he too likes to be out of position. Russ has always over committed and played with too much emotion so I will agree on that part.

However Kanter needs to take some responsibility with all of what you're saying. This is his, what 6th year?! And he still needs to be baby sat?!

Having Felton has been awesome for the 2nd unit.
OKC hasn't had a solid vet PG since Fisher. He seems to always be talking to the young guys especially Abrines I love it

[oken]

However Kanter needs to take some responsibility with all of what you're saying. This is his, what 6th year?! And he still needs to be baby sat?!

Yes but actually he was playing soccer in youth and at age of 16 he grew so much and saw that he had some sticky hands he decided to go for the basketball route. He is good with footwork because of soccer but he is atrocious about the fundamentals because he never spent any time in basketball drills in his teens. He even ditched a chance to play proper basketball in Turkey with Fenerbahce to commit early to NBA but he was found ineligible to play in NCAA due to a payment he received from a Turkish team previous year. He also was put into a logjam situation in Jazz together with Favors limiting his playtime and same here behind Steven Adams. This is the first time he is put into a starter role (in his 7th season!) together with a proper vet PG so I guess the improvement will be faster from here on.

Also If he was not given that ludicrous contract by Portland he could be an 8-10mln/year center trying more to get into 18mln/year range but he got that money from start so it may have caused him to think "to hell with defense, everybody pays for offense". Actually when you think of the salaries thrown around for 3-pt chuckers like THjr and D-ion and compare it with an elite defender like Andre Roberson this line of thinking is not totally illogical.

[nic4747]

Thanks all for your replies. I can't wait to see how your team does in the playoffs.

[dakomish23]

Thanks all for your replies. I can't wait to see how your team does in the playoffs.

[spearsy23]

See below Jarret Jack shoving and shouting at Kanter to put him into correct position on defense on nearly every position. Russ is too self centered to be able to make such positive contributions to the team game. He may never be a real "vet".

What? Russ was doing this constantly last year.