Otto Porter - Part 3

[nate33]

Continued from here

[pcbothwel]

Guys like Jae Crowder, Jared Dudley, Robert Covington, DeMarre Carroll, Trevor Ariza and Otto Porter basically prove my point about RPM. Really don't need to look any further than those guys to see where the blindspots are.

I dont know if I'd call it a blind spot as much is its about interpretation. Otto can get you 25 & 6 while playing good defense, or 14 & 9 while playing great defense. His net effect on the court may be the same in both instances... he has a way of blending in that seems like he is not an Alpha/ Creator.
But you can also interpret that to mean that he simply has lower gravity. That is, his game is so fluid that he can affect the game either way and allow others to play to their comfort zone.
I remember the Lebron effect a couple years ago where players would be caught just standing at the 3 point line and watching and not contributing because of Lebrons sheer gravity. Every player had to mold themselves around his skills... Fact it, he is so immensely talented that he can pull this off.
The negative side of this coin is Carmelo, or Boogie. Now boogie has improved from 2 years ago, so i am more so talking about Kings Boogie. But players have a hard time finding their comfort zone when playing with them because the nature of their game. Giannis might be another player who could have difficulty with translating to wins as players must align themselves around their skill set.

Just to reiterate, this is not a slight against those players (Well, maybe Melo ).

[gtn130]

Guys like Jae Crowder, Jared Dudley, Robert Covington, DeMarre Carroll, Trevor Ariza and Otto Porter basically prove my point about RPM. Really don't need to look any further than those guys to see where the blindspots are.

I dont know if I'd call it a blind spot as much is its about interpretation. Otto can get you 25 & 6 while playing good defense, or 14 & 9 while playing great defense. His net effect on the court may be the same in both instances... he has a way of blending in that seems like he is not an Alpha/ Creator.
But you can also interpret that to mean that he simply has lower gravity. That is, his game is so fluid that he can affect the game either way and allow others to play to their comfort zone.
I remember the Lebron effect a couple years ago where players would be caught just standing at the 3 point line and watching and not contributing because of Lebrons sheer gravity. Every player had to mold themselves around his skills... Fact it, he is so immensely talented that he can pull this off.
The negative side of this coin is Carmelo, or Boogie. Now boogie has improved from 2 years ago, so i am more so talking about Kings Boogie. But players have a hard time finding their comfort zone when playing with them because the nature of their game. Giannis might be another player who could have difficulty with translating to wins as players must align themselves around their skill set.

Just to reiterate, this is not a slight against those players (Well, maybe Melo ).

RPM rates those guys I listed, with the exception of Otto, well above their pay grade. Either there's a massive inefficiency in the market, or RPM just doesn't properly rate players who stand in the corner and shoot 3s while playing good defense (I know Otto does more than that at this stage). Jae Crowder is basically the poster child for this, as he's finished #26 and #20 in the league in RPM the last two years. He's not a top 25 player in the league, and I don't think anyone but PIF would really make the argument that he is.

The other thing is the variability year-to-year among the guys I listed. Crowder has totally crashed. Jared Dudley has been all over the map and so on. Crowder and Dudley specifically changed teams and saw a huge drop off from an RPM perspective. I think we can assume it's because they changed teammates and coaches and aren't able to benefit from the situations they were previously in.

Regarding your point about Otto - it's not really about his defense, it's about his efficiency numbers. He gets to be the 3rd banana and the recipient of lots of open looks. Those things incontrovertibly help his numbers, just as Bruce Bowen being asked to literally only take corner 3s helped his. If Otto is asked to create more shots for himself, his efficiency numbers will go down, and there will be no more talk of his brilliant RPM. It's really as simple as that.

[tontoz]

Porter is averaging 17.4 pts per 36, 3 more than last season, with a TS of 62%. His efficiency hasn't gone down.

He shoots 50% on mid-range jumpers, the most inefficient shots in the game. He doesn't rely solely on open 3s. He takes only 4.4 threes per 36.

[gtn130]

Porter is averaging 17.4 pts per 36, 3 more than last season, with a TS of 62%. His efficiency hasn't gone down.

He shoots 50% on mid-range jumpers, the most inefficient shots in the game. He doesn't rely solely on open 3s. He takes only 4.4 threes per 36.

Cool. Let me know how he does when he's the focal point of the offense, commands the other team's best defender and has to create for himself and other on most possessions.

I'm certain a guy who shoots 2.5 free throws per 100 possessions can carry a team offensively. Good stuff, tontoz, as usual.

[tontoz]

Porter is averaging 17.4 pts per 36, 3 more than last season, with a TS of 62%. His efficiency hasn't gone down.

He shoots 50% on mid-range jumpers, the most inefficient shots in the game. He doesn't rely solely on open 3s. He takes only 4.4 threes per 36.

Cool. Let me know how he does when he's the focal point of the offense, commands the other team's best defender and has to create for himself and other on most possessions.

I'm certain a guy who shoots 2.5 free throws per 100 possessions can carry a team offensively. Good stuff, tontoz, as usual.

Why does someone have to carry an offense to be an effective player? When did I, or anyone for that matter, say that Porter could carry a teams offense?

[gtn130]

Porter is averaging 17.4 pts per 36, 3 more than last season, with a TS of 62%. His efficiency hasn't gone down.

He shoots 50% on mid-range jumpers, the most inefficient shots in the game. He doesn't rely solely on open 3s. He takes only 4.4 threes per 36.

Cool. Let me know how he does when he's the focal point of the offense, commands the other team's best defender and has to create for himself and other on most possessions.

I'm certain a guy who shoots 2.5 free throws per 100 possessions can carry a team offensively. Good stuff, tontoz, as usual.

Why does someone have to carry an offense to be an effective player? When did I, or anyone for that matter, say that Porter could carry a teams offense?

Did you have a point then or were you just arbitrarily sharing Wizards factoids?

[tontoz]

Cool. Let me know how he does when he's the focal point of the offense, commands the other team's best defender and has to create for himself and other on most possessions.

I'm certain a guy who shoots 2.5 free throws per 100 possessions can carry a team offensively. Good stuff, tontoz, as usual.

Why does someone have to carry an offense to be an effective player? When did I, or anyone for that matter, say that Porter could carry a teams offense?

Did you have a point then or were you just arbitrarily sharing Wizards factoids?

My point is that Porter is a valuable player and should be a bigger part of the offense. He shoots well from everywhere, even contested fadeaway jumpers.

He isn't going to average 25-30, but he doesn't have to. I think you underestimate the effect guys like Porter have on the defense.

His shooting ability and constant off the ball movement cause problems for the defense even on plays where he doesn't touch the ball.

There are 5 players on the court and only one ball. Someone who can score 15-20 on high efficiency without being a ball stopper has a lot of value.

[dangermouse]

Porter is averaging 17.4 pts per 36, 3 more than last season, with a TS of 62%. His efficiency hasn't gone down.

He shoots 50% on mid-range jumpers, the most inefficient shots in the game. He doesn't rely solely on open 3s. He takes only 4.4 threes per 36.

He needs to shoot more 3s

[gtn130]

Why does someone have to carry an offense to be an effective player? When did I, or anyone for that matter, say that Porter could carry a teams offense?

Did you have a point then or were you just arbitrarily sharing Wizards factoids?

My point is that Porter is a valuable player and should be a bigger part of the offense. He shoots well from everywhere, even contested fadeaway jumpers.

He isn't going to average 25-30, but he doesn't have to. I think you underestimate the effect guys like Porter have on the defense.

His shooting ability and constant off the ball movement cause problems for the defense even on plays where he doesn't touch the ball.

There are 5 players on the court and only one ball. Someone who can score 15-20 on high efficiency without being a ball stopper has a lot of value.

Cool. This has very little to do with what I was actually talking about.

[tontoz]

Cool. This has very little to do with what I was actually talking about.

What were you talking about again? ... Oh that's right you were saying that ORPM overrated role players because a couple of guys were rated higher than you thought they should be.

I do so enjoy the eye test argument. My apologies for forgetting it.

[gtn130]

Cool. This has very little to do with what I was actually talking about.

What were you talking about again? ... Oh that's right you were saying that ORPM overrated role players because a couple of guys were rated higher than you thought they should be.

I do so enjoy the eye test argument. My apologies for forgetting it.

Let me know when Jae Crowder is paid like he's the #20 player in the league.

Let me know when consensus becomes that Otto Porter and Robert Covington are top-7 players in the league.

[tontoz]

Cool. This has very little to do with what I was actually talking about.

What were you talking about again? ... Oh that's right you were saying that ORPM overrated role players because a couple of guys were rated higher than you thought they should be.

I do so enjoy the eye test argument. My apologies for forgetting it.

Let me know when Jae Crowder is paid like he's the #20 player in the league.

Let me know when consensus becomes that Otto Porter and Robert Covington are top-7 players in the league.

First you say that my post has little to do with what you are talking about, then out of the blue you bring up players salaries.

W T F


By the way Covington is currently ranked 27th in ORPM among all players. Crowder currently has an ORPM of -1.64.

[gtn130]

First you say that my post has little to do with what you are talking about, then out of the blue you bring up players salaries.

W T F

Tontoz, I'm not sure you even have the mental capacity to keep up with anything in this thread.

RPM rates those guys I listed, with the exception of Otto, well above their pay grade. Either there's a massive inefficiency in the market, or RPM just doesn't properly rate players who stand in the corner and shoot 3s while playing good defense (I know Otto does more than that at this stage).

I'm not gonna keep digging up my posts and pointing you to exact words and phrases that prove something I've already said because you're too obtuse to read things and understand them before posting.

[tontoz]

First you say that my post has little to do with what you are talking about, then out of the blue you bring up players salaries.

W T F

Tontoz, I'm not sure you even have the mental capacity to keep up with anything in this thread.

RPM rates those guys I listed, with the exception of Otto, well above their pay grade. Either there's a massive inefficiency in the market, or RPM just doesn't properly rate players who stand in the corner and shoot 3s while playing good defense (I know Otto does more than that at this stage).

I'm not gonna keep digging up my posts and pointing you to exact words and phrases that prove something I've already said because you're too obtuse to read things and understand them before posting.

So we are back to RPM now? You do realize that half of RPM is DRPM, right?

I thought we had come to the understanding that you believe it is ORPM, not DRPM, that overrates role players.

[payitforward]

Jae Crowder is basically the poster child for this, as he's finished #26 and #20 in the league in RPM the last two years. He's not a top 25 player in the league, and I don't think anyone but PIF would really make the argument that he is.

Stop being a twerp, dude.

Jae Crowder is a nicely above average NBA player. What is notable about him for a Wizards fan is that he was picked two spots after Tomas Satoransky.

Go back to the 2012 draft thread, & you'll find me calling for us to draft either Crowder or Draymond Green at #32. I believe I can say with some confidence that you weren't calling for the same thing. In fact, until I mentioned him, or Kev did, or CCJ did, you'd never heard of him, had you? If I ask you where he played his college ball, you'll have to look it up, won't you?

[gtn130]

Jae Crowder is basically the poster child for this, as he's finished #26 and #20 in the league in RPM the last two years. He's not a top 25 player in the league, and I don't think anyone but PIF would really make the argument that he is.

Stop being a twerp, dude.

Jae Crowder is a nicely above average NBA player. What is notable about him for a Wizards fan is that he was picked two spots after Tomas Satoransky.

Go back to the 2012 draft thread, & you'll find me calling for us to draft either Crowder or Draymond Green at #32. I believe I can say with some confidence that you weren't calling for the same thing. In fact, until I mentioned him, or Kev did, or CCJ did, you'd never heard of him, had you? If I ask you where he played his college ball, you'll have to look it up, won't you?

I mean this has nothing to do with my argument. Crowder is a nice player on a great contract, but he's still not a top 25 player in the league.

[NatP4]

Marquette and Michigan state! Too easy

[payitforward]

First you say that my post has little to do with what you are talking about, then out of the blue you bring up players salaries.

W T F

Tontoz, I'm not sure you even have the mental capacity to keep up with anything in this thread.

RPM rates those guys I listed, with the exception of Otto, well above their pay grade. Either there's a massive inefficiency in the market, or RPM just doesn't properly rate players who stand in the corner and shoot 3s while playing good defense (I know Otto does more than that at this stage).

I'm not gonna keep digging up my posts and pointing you to exact words and phrases that prove something I've already said because you're too obtuse to read things and understand them before posting.

You know, tontoz & I have had some epic arguments, but I am pretty sure I never suggested that his "mental capacity" was limited or that he was "obtuse." & I don't think he suggested that in my direction.

Just so we're clear: I can assure you I'm smarter than you. I've written more books, read more books, made more money, speak more languages, have lived in more countries, have taught at more colleges, had more sex, & done more drugs than you. A lot more in most of those cases.

But, that doesn't mean that I'm going to accuse you of being stupid, gtn. Maybe you could get with the program & stop trying to demonstrate that you are.

[gtn130]

First you say that my post has little to do with what you are talking about, then out of the blue you bring up players salaries.

W T F

Tontoz, I'm not sure you even have the mental capacity to keep up with anything in this thread.

RPM rates those guys I listed, with the exception of Otto, well above their pay grade. Either there's a massive inefficiency in the market, or RPM just doesn't properly rate players who stand in the corner and shoot 3s while playing good defense (I know Otto does more than that at this stage).

I'm not gonna keep digging up my posts and pointing you to exact words and phrases that prove something I've already said because you're too obtuse to read things and understand them before posting.

So we are back to RPM now? You do realize that half of RPM is DRPM, right?

I thought we had come to the understanding that you believe it is ORPM, not DRPM, that overrates role players.

lol

Yes, I believe RPM overrates 3/D wings by way of ORPM, a subset of RPM, overvaluing offensive efficiency and undervaluing shot creation. Hope this helps for your next gotcha attempt