Peak Alonzo Mourning vs Peak Dwight Howard

[dhsilv2]

Zo was better than Dwight. He just played the n an era of even better centers that overshadowed him. He was every bit the defender Dwight was and a much better offensive player. He had actual post moves!

lakers fans really hate howard lol.

[E-Balla]

Pena for peak Howard to me clearly reached a higher level of play.

However, eff that guy. There’s no chance I’d ever chose him over Mourning to play on my team. Mourning was a wee bit better defensively and he’s so far ahead as a human being and teammate it’s really not a difficult choice for me.

Mourning was never better than Dwight on defense. Just a better shot blocker. His overall defensive game was nothing special. Dwight was better at every aspect of defense except shot blocking. In that case at his peak he had as much impact at the rim as anyone in the league.

Zo had a several year stretch where he had a legitimate argument as the best defender in the whole league, including winning a DPOY in 2000.

Take a look at the 1997 ECF. When have you ever seen Michael Jordan of all people shoot 38% from the field and average 2 assists in a playoff series? The Bulls couldn’t get anything against Mourning and the Heat, but Miami’s offense was abysmal.

Zo was arguably the best defensive player over a several year stretch that included Mutombo’s peak and Robinson’s late prime. He was a freaking animal, and unlike Dwight had the focus to follow through every possession.

Him vs Robinson is close but neither are anywhere near Mutombo defensively. Deke lapped the competition most years and you can look at DRAPM and see just how absurd his defensive impact was from 97-02 (most years his DRAPM was 25-33% higher than the #2 DRAPM).

[dhsilv2]

Mourning was never better than Dwight on defense. Just a better shot blocker. His overall defensive game was nothing special. Dwight was better at every aspect of defense except shot blocking. In that case at his peak he had as much impact at the rim as anyone in the league.

Zo had a several year stretch where he had a legitimate argument as the best defender in the whole league, including winning a DPOY in 2000.

Take a look at the 1997 ECF. When have you ever seen Michael Jordan of all people shoot 38% from the field and average 2 assists in a playoff series? The Bulls couldn’t get anything against Mourning and the Heat, but Miami’s offense was abysmal.

Zo was arguably the best defensive player over a several year stretch that included Mutombo’s peak and Robinson’s late prime. He was a freaking animal, and unlike Dwight had the focus to follow through every possession.

Him vs Robinson is close but neither are anywhere near Mutombo defensively. Deke lapped the competition most years and you can look at DRAPM and see just how absurd his defensive impact was from 97-02 (most years his DRAPM was 25-33% higher than the #2 DRAPM).

We don't really have data on peak Robinson to compare do we?

[E-Balla]

Zo had a several year stretch where he had a legitimate argument as the best defender in the whole league, including winning a DPOY in 2000.

Take a look at the 1997 ECF. When have you ever seen Michael Jordan of all people shoot 38% from the field and average 2 assists in a playoff series? The Bulls couldn’t get anything against Mourning and the Heat, but Miami’s offense was abysmal.

Zo was arguably the best defensive player over a several year stretch that included Mutombo’s peak and Robinson’s late prime. He was a freaking animal, and unlike Dwight had the focus to follow through every possession.

Him vs Robinson is close but neither are anywhere near Mutombo defensively. Deke lapped the competition most years and you can look at DRAPM and see just how absurd his defensive impact was from 97-02 (most years his DRAPM was 25-33% higher than the #2 DRAPM).

We don't really have data on peak Robinson to compare do we?

1. I mean we don't really have peak Deke either. He and Robinson are basically the same age.

2. Unless you think peak Robinson was by far the best defender in the league and a class above everyone else (including Hakeem) it doesn't matter.

3. Spaceman was comparing Zo against late prime Robinson and Deke. Peak Robinson doesn't even matter in context to my post.

[dhsilv2]

Him vs Robinson is close but neither are anywhere near Mutombo defensively. Deke lapped the competition most years and you can look at DRAPM and see just how absurd his defensive impact was from 97-02 (most years his DRAPM was 25-33% higher than the #2 DRAPM).

We don't really have data on peak Robinson to compare do we?

1. I mean we don't really have peak Deke either. He and Robinson are basically the same age.

2. Unless you think peak Robinson was by far the best defender in the league and a class above everyone else (including Hakeem) it doesn't matter.

3. Spaceman was comparing Zo against late prime Robinson and Deke. Peak Robinson doesn't even matter in context to my post.

I tend to disagree on when mutombo peaked in that I think his mobility was pretty meh and stayed that way. Robinson was crazy fast and mobile and declined. Also robinson's career kinda you know was never the same after 97 so at best we'd have 1 year which imo wasn't his best. No doesn't question your post, but since you said he had a clear gap, I was wondering if you had data to back it up.

[E-Balla]

We don't really have data on peak Robinson to compare do we?

1. I mean we don't really have peak Deke either. He and Robinson are basically the same age.

2. Unless you think peak Robinson was by far the best defender in the league and a class above everyone else (including Hakeem) it doesn't matter.

3. Spaceman was comparing Zo against late prime Robinson and Deke. Peak Robinson doesn't even matter in context to my post.

I tend to disagree on when mutombo peaked in that I think his mobility was pretty meh and stayed that way. Robinson was crazy fast and mobile and declined. Also robinson's career kinda you know was never the same after 97 so at best we'd have 1 year which imo wasn't his best. No doesn't question your post, but since you said he had a clear gap, I was wondering if you had data to back it up.

I do have proof there's a clear gap between LATE prime Robinson, Zo, and Deke which is what I was talking about in the first place.

[Bwelc679]

Howard is better rebounder, Zo is better offensively and much better defensively

Do you have zo has on bar with Russell for greatest peak defender ever?

Honestly never heard anyone rank Zo's defense as GOAT level, and Howard is almost universally seen as a post Russell GOAT contender.

If Russell is A+ for defensive Cs. Guys like Walton Mutombo Hakeem Ewing are A, Zo is A-, Dwight is a B or B+

First, as I always like to mention, this thread is old AF and I am aware of that before posting my replies. It's also regarding two players whos peaks and primes were done well before the original post so anything thats happened since wouldn't effect past opinions anyways.

I bump these old threads because I'm constantly having basketball discussions with friends and comparing players of the past with present and other past players. Barbershop talk. I like the to hear others opinions and raise the level of the discussion.

Now on to the topic at hand,
I wanted to reply to your comment specifically because of how casually you grouped so many centers with Hakeem insinuating that they are all basically equal.

No way that Hakeem wasn't a better defender than Ewing or Walton. Mutumbo is closer because I consider him the best straight up rim protector of all time (not counting Russell and Wilt because there aren't any numbers to use) but, Hakeem was way better in the passing lanes and although none of these guys had to guard the high PnR and rarely switched onto guards, Hakeem is the only one who could do it without much trouble. He would be the best of the group in today's era as well because of the skill I just mentioned. I think it goes: Russell, Hakeem and Garnett A+ then Mutumbo, Wilt, Dwight, Duncan, Admiral and Walton A, then Zo, Draymond, Gobert and Ewing A-.

For this specific argument, I think Dwight is a better defender. They are both great but Dwight is the clear more impactful defensive player because of his ability to cover so much ground as a help defender. Similar to Hakeem, Dwight could also switch onto smaller players on the rare occasions he was forced to do so. More than this, he could be guarding someone a significant distance from the hoop while still being quick enough to run over and contest a shot at the rim as a help defender. His recovery abilities are what set him apart from Zo who was probably the better post presence and rim protector although they are still close in this category as well.

Zo was a better offensive player and although the PPG numbers are similar, Zo was playing in the slowest of times and was scoring the majority of his teams points. He had a decent hook and was an excellent roll man. I don't think his better offensive skills are enough to give him an edge of Dwight overall. Dwight was still better at getting to the line which he did so at all time numbers.

The only reason I would choose Zo over Dwight is because of basketball IQ and discipline, which in all fairness, are very important and good reasons. Zo was all about winning and did what the team needed and followed through with the game plan. He didn't take possessions off and didn't have as big as an ego. Dwight was a bit of a diva and complained about shot attempts while also having games where he would purposely not pass the ball to Harden because he felt like he wasn't getting enough looks and Harden was at fault. He didn't care about winning as much as his own statistics. Similar to a young Wilt. Dwight loved to launch the ball into the stands on blocks while Zo wanted to tip it to teammates to start a fast break. Little things like this add up in close playoff series.

In conclusion, if you told me Dwight didn't care about how many shot attempts he had and would give 100% on defense while setting constant screens and smashing the offensive boards on offense, id take him in a heartbeat. Otherwise, if it's a choice between the two and by adding a dominant defensive presence to my team we would have a shot at a title, I would have to go with the guy who is willing to give it all for the team and go with Zo.

[Bwelc679]

1. I mean we don't really have peak Deke either. He and Robinson are basically the same age.

2. Unless you think peak Robinson was by far the best defender in the league and a class above everyone else (including Hakeem) it doesn't matter.

3. Spaceman was comparing Zo against late prime Robinson and Deke. Peak Robinson doesn't even matter in context to my post.

I tend to disagree on when mutombo peaked in that I think his mobility was pretty meh and stayed that way. Robinson was crazy fast and mobile and declined. Also robinson's career kinda you know was never the same after 97 so at best we'd have 1 year which imo wasn't his best. No doesn't question your post, but since you said he had a clear gap, I was wondering if you had data to back it up.

I do have proof there's a clear gap between LATE prime Robinson, Zo, and Deke which is what I was talking about in the first place.

Still waiting for your proof. It's been seven years btw.

If what you were trying to say was that the proof IS that there is a clear gap between late prime Admiral/Zo and Mutumbo then where's the proof for that?

What do you consider late prime? Because Zo didn't have a late prime considering he went from peak straight to Kidney issues and Robinsons prime ended the year of his injury BUT he was an absolute defensive monster the years after when he had Duncan to take over scoring duties. Robinsons post prime (injury) defense was arguably better than Mutumbos late years not a "clear gap behind". In fact, if you use "historical RAPTOR" or "DARKO" dapm numbers then they are slightly in favor of Admiral and this is after the injury Admiral not "late prime".

Since Mutumbo died this last week I can't be mad that you are clearly a Deke fanboy and are speaking from the heart not the mind but don't say you have "proof" for something thats just your opinion.

[kdawg32086]

For peak, I would go with Dwight. But I think Zo was the better overall player. Maybe it's just the nostalgia for me of the 90's NBA, but I feel like Zo was incredibly underrated. Top 20 center all-time IMO.