12/1 - POSTGAME | Minnesota Timberwolves (107) - (111) Oklahoma City Thunder

[Atomic Punk]

this wasn't an inspiring victory. what a terrible game from westbrook. and the lack of contribution from patrick patterson and alex abrines is alarming. our bench might very well end up worse than last year if those two don't show up-- especially patterson.

another close one that shouldn't have been. lucky to pull it out in the end; sooner or later we were going to win some of these.

As usual, I have a different take. I thought it was encouraging that they held it together down the stretch and they did do some good things on both ends of the floor. The ball movement at times looked very good.

Now Patterson and Abrines, they are a big concern. Obviously the team was counting on those guys to be contributors off the bench, in fact, I thought they would be the most consistent and provide a big boost. Either they are hurt or Donavan just has no confidence in them. Not sure what is going on there.

If this were game one I would have a different take. They started out playing great but got worse as the game went on and almost lost the lead. It’s the same story as many other games except they won this game. Obviously they aren’t going to shoot sixty percent the entire game but as it wore on they started reverting more and more back to the things they need to avoid.

This game was much better than the Dallas and Orlando games but it’s extremely concerning that they can’t play the right way for four quarters. I don’t mean play lights out for four quarters, I mean continue to try to do the things that got them the lead. If players are moving without the ball and we get good looks but just miss the shot, then so be it. I put a lot of that on Russ but it includes everyone.

And I honestly don’t disagree with anything you just said. I was just encouraged by some of the things that I saw and that they closed it out. It’s like they realize what they need to do and are trying to adjust. But, as you said, let’s see them sustain it, 4 quarters, 2 games, 4 games. I still think they will get there.

[Pillendreher]

As usual, I have a different take. I thought it was encouraging that they held it together down the stretch and they did do some good things on both ends of the floor. The ball movement at times looked very good.

Now Patterson and Abrines, they are a big concern. Obviously the team was counting on those guys to be contributors off the bench, in fact, I thought they would be the most consistent and provide a big boost. Either they are hurt or Donavan just has no confidence in them. Not sure what is going on there.

If this were game one I would have a different take. They started out playing great but got worse as the game went on and almost lost the lead. It’s the same story as many other games except they won this game. Obviously they aren’t going to shoot sixty percent the entire game but as it wore on they started reverting more and more back to the things they need to avoid.

This game was much better than the Dallas and Orlando games but it’s extremely concerning that they can’t play the right way for four quarters. I don’t mean play lights out for four quarters, I mean continue to try to do the things that got them the lead. If players are moving without the ball and we get good looks but just miss the shot, then so be it. I put a lot of that on Russ but it includes everyone.

And I honestly don’t disagree with anything you just said. I was just encouraged by some of the things that I saw and that they closed it out. It’s like they realize what they need to do and are trying to adjust. But, as you said, let’s see them sustain it, 4 quarters, 2 games, 4 games. I still think they will get there.

I saw no adjustments, really. This was just another collapse waiting to happen. The T'Wolves are just trash enough defensively that we were able to hold on. From the ~18 minute mark onward we played bad basketball, same as always.

[Atomic Punk]

If this were game one I would have a different take. They started out playing great but got worse as the game went on and almost lost the lead. It’s the same story as many other games except they won this game. Obviously they aren’t going to shoot sixty percent the entire game but as it wore on they started reverting more and more back to the things they need to avoid.

This game was much better than the Dallas and Orlando games but it’s extremely concerning that they can’t play the right way for four quarters. I don’t mean play lights out for four quarters, I mean continue to try to do the things that got them the lead. If players are moving without the ball and we get good looks but just miss the shot, then so be it. I put a lot of that on Russ but it includes everyone.

And I honestly don’t disagree with anything you just said. I was just encouraged by some of the things that I saw and that they closed it out. It’s like they realize what they need to do and are trying to adjust. But, as you said, let’s see them sustain it, 4 quarters, 2 games, 4 games. I still think they will get there.

I saw no adjustments, really. This was just another collapse waiting to happen. The T'Wolves are just trash enough defensively that we were able to hold on. From the ~18 minute mark onward we played bad basketball, same as always.

I honestly don’t know why you even bother watching this team other than just to crap all over them. But whatever floats your boat....

[hardenASG13]

And I honestly don’t disagree with anything you just said. I was just encouraged by some of the things that I saw and that they closed it out. It’s like they realize what they need to do and are trying to adjust. But, as you said, let’s see them sustain it, 4 quarters, 2 games, 4 games. I still think they will get there.

I saw no adjustments, really. This was just another collapse waiting to happen. The T'Wolves are just trash enough defensively that we were able to hold on. From the ~18 minute mark onward we played bad basketball, same as always.

I honestly don’t know why you even bother watching this team other than just to crap all over them. But whatever floats your boat....

It's insane with some of these guys. They don't like the teams playing style, rotations, or stars, yet they are die-hard followers of the team. Nobody has a gun to your head. Follow a group you like more! Makes you wonder if they just want to fit in with the forum group, because I can't see why the majority follow this team. They hate what they see, even in wins. Other teams don't play perfect in all their wins either. Stay off the bandwagon when they get it going, guys.

[Pillendreher]

And I honestly don’t disagree with anything you just said. I was just encouraged by some of the things that I saw and that they closed it out. It’s like they realize what they need to do and are trying to adjust. But, as you said, let’s see them sustain it, 4 quarters, 2 games, 4 games. I still think they will get there.

I saw no adjustments, really. This was just another collapse waiting to happen. The T'Wolves are just trash enough defensively that we were able to hold on. From the ~18 minute mark onward we played bad basketball, same as always.

I honestly don’t know why you even bother watching this team other than just to crap all over them. But whatever floats your boat....

I watch them because I want them to play well. This is not playing well. It was the same nonsense that cost us so many games already. We play (very) well for 18 minutes and then just get worse by the quarter. This time we did enough to hold on, but it still by no means an impressive win. Minnesota did nothing that stood out and we still only managed to beat them just by a couple of points after scoring 42 points in the 1st quarter.

Since the MIlwaukee game, they have been excellent in the 1st quarter and like half of the 2nd quarter. Once Russ comes back in and things settle down, we start to unravel. Slowly in the 2nd, then we mostly get spanked in the 3rd and by the time the 4th quarter arrives, we can't regain momentum and just keep going down until we can't get back up and lose the game.
We're +82 in the 1st quarter of the last 14 games, +2 in the 2nd quarter and -95 the rest of the game. I'm sorry but that's just not gonna cut it. You can't get blown out the rest of the game after just 18 minutes of putting in the work.

You may call this 'crap[ping] all over them'. I call it using stats to evaluate what's happening on the court. This is not the Phoenix Suns and this is not the Sacramento Kings. This team called itself a championship contender and so far they're only showing that for roughly 1/3 of every game. I'm not gonna stop mentioning that until they stop doing it. This little act of theirs has been going on for more than a month now and frankly I'm sick of it. It's like a bad horror movie that basically tells you every scary moment before it happens. I've seen this far too many times already to ignore it.
One or two plays don't go our way (Adams and Roberson did one hell of a job saving us over the last 5 minutes) and we've lost yet another game the same way.

[ThunderBolt]

I saw no adjustments, really. This was just another collapse waiting to happen. The T'Wolves are just trash enough defensively that we were able to hold on. From the ~18 minute mark onward we played bad basketball, same as always.

I honestly don’t know why you even bother watching this team other than just to crap all over them. But whatever floats your boat....

It's insane with some of these guys. They don't like the teams playing style, rotations, or stars, yet they are die-hard followers of the team. Nobody has a gun to your head. Follow a group you like more! Makes you wonder if they just want to fit in with the forum group, because I can't see why the majority follow this team. They hate what they see, even in wins. Other teams don't play perfect in all their wins either. Stay off the bandwagon when they get it going, guys.

This is gold right here. You’ve made some very bandwagon comments in the past about why you support okc and why would jump ship in the future. I don’t really want to dig through your posts to find it, but we both know it happened.

[spearsy23]

You have no basis to say what Steven is or isn’t with every other point guard unless you’ve seen Adams play with every other point guard. If you want to argue that Russ is better for Adams that Semaj, Norris Cole and even Raymond Felton, then I’ll agree.

I agree that Russ is a better defender than Raymond Felton. If you’re argument is comparing the reigning mvp with an overweight and older veteran than I think that shows his game is struggling this year.

Having watched Steven Adams play for several years I think I can fairly safely assess his offensive skills which are limited to rim runs both in transition and off pick and roll and put backs. Of course there was probably no way anyone could guess deandre Jordan would see a dip in his scoring and efficiency without Chris Paul either

I'm comparing the reigning MVP with the rest of the league. He is failing by the standards he set, but he is still an upper tier player even in his current state. You lack any nuance, either a guy is trash or exceptional.

I never said that and it’s absolutely false. Again, as has happened with you and I in the past, you can’t handle criticism of Russ and get overly defensive. Funny how a guy who argued with someone quoting him verbatim now wants to put words in others mouth.

Steven Adams will always have limitations on the offensive end but it’s obvious he’s made improvement over the years and he deserves some of that credit too. Of course Russ helps his game. I never said he didn’t. Yes I’m comparing Russ not only with his high standards that he set but also with the high standards of other elite point guards. That makes a lot of more sense than comparing him with the mediocre backups of last year or Raymond Felton to show his impact on the team. Adams will always need help but it’s not unreasonable to think russ isnt the only player in the league that is capable of getting him the ball to score. I feel confident saying this because we saw George do this successfully tonight.

I can appreciate russ’ loyalty, enjoy watching his athleticism when he’s hot and still be critical of his game. It’s got flaws, big ones. Some games he entirely carries the team to victory. Other games it seems like he undoes all of the good from previous game. There is a reason russ is one of the most criticized guys in the league and it’s not anyone’s personal vendetta. Ball dominant, high usage point guards that shoot a low percentage with high turnovers tend to be controversial.

Obviously Russ is better than all of our bench but Alex Abrines and Patrick Patterson don’t have the usage russ does. It would be great if both of those guys would step up for the team. Regardless of the impact they have, it won’t be on Russ’ level because they are role players. I never said Russ is responsible for all of this team’s problems but he’s not free from blame. Games where he shoots 6-21, 0-8 3p, 14 assists, 7 turnovers and 9 rebounds are going to make it tough to beat good teams unless George and Adams play like they did tonight.

You specifically said Russ is awful on offense and criticize his defense constantly. If he's awful on offense and bad on defense then he's a bad player, right? Except he's still having impact better than all but 3 point guards in the league. Weird, it's almost like even at this diminished level of play he's still good. that's the only claim I've made. In order for us to be anything resembling contenders he has to play at near MVP levels, he hasn't done that. He has stopped the offense at times and he has shot like crap, but despite that he's still having a large positive effect on the outcome of games, like top ten in the league type impact. So while you guys whine about how bad he has been, I'm saying to take a moment and realize that his actual value on the court has still been good. And statements like 'any point guard could replicate his impact' are stupid, because in reality they aren't.

In regards to Steven, I've repeatedly explained what you misunderstood, if you still don't get it then it's a reading comprehension problem.

[ThunderBolt]

Having watched Steven Adams play for several years I think I can fairly safely assess his offensive skills which are limited to rim runs both in transition and off pick and roll and put backs. Of course there was probably no way anyone could guess deandre Jordan would see a dip in his scoring and efficiency without Chris Paul either

I'm comparing the reigning MVP with the rest of the league. He is failing by the standards he set, but he is still an upper tier player even in his current state. You lack any nuance, either a guy is trash or exceptional.

I never said that and it’s absolutely false. Again, as has happened with you and I in the past, you can’t handle criticism of Russ and get overly defensive. Funny how a guy who argued with someone quoting him verbatim now wants to put words in others mouth.

Steven Adams will always have limitations on the offensive end but it’s obvious he’s made improvement over the years and he deserves some of that credit too. Of course Russ helps his game. I never said he didn’t. Yes I’m comparing Russ not only with his high standards that he set but also with the high standards of other elite point guards. That makes a lot of more sense than comparing him with the mediocre backups of last year or Raymond Felton to show his impact on the team. Adams will always need help but it’s not unreasonable to think russ isnt the only player in the league that is capable of getting him the ball to score. I feel confident saying this because we saw George do this successfully tonight.

I can appreciate russ’ loyalty, enjoy watching his athleticism when he’s hot and still be critical of his game. It’s got flaws, big ones. Some games he entirely carries the team to victory. Other games it seems like he undoes all of the good from previous game. There is a reason russ is one of the most criticized guys in the league and it’s not anyone’s personal vendetta. Ball dominant, high usage point guards that shoot a low percentage with high turnovers tend to be controversial.

Obviously Russ is better than all of our bench but Alex Abrines and Patrick Patterson don’t have the usage russ does. It would be great if both of those guys would step up for the team. Regardless of the impact they have, it won’t be on Russ’ level because they are role players. I never said Russ is responsible for all of this team’s problems but he’s not free from blame. Games where he shoots 6-21, 0-8 3p, 14 assists, 7 turnovers and 9 rebounds are going to make it tough to beat good teams unless George and Adams play like they did tonight.

You specifically said Russ is awful on offense and criticize his defense constantly. If he's awful on offense and bad on defense then he's a bad player, right? Except he's still having impact better than all but 3 point guards in the league. Weird, it's almost like even at this diminished level of play he's still good. that's the only claim I've made. In order for us to be anything resembling contenders he has to play at near MVP levels, he hasn't done that. He has stopped the offense at times and he has shot like crap, but despite that he's still having a large positive effect on the outcome of games, like top ten in the league type impact. So while you guys whine about how bad he has been, I'm saying to take a moment and realize that his actual value on the court has still been good. And statements like 'any point guard could replicate his impact' are stupid, because in reality they aren't.

In regards to Steven, I've repeatedly explained what you misunderstood, if you still don't get it then it's a reading comprehension problem.

Speaking of reading comprehension issues, I never said ANY point guard could replicate what he did with Adams. I said other elite point guards could do so. As far as Russ’ positive impact on games, were 9-12. It isn’t that great. He did more last year with less around him.

[spearsy23]

If this were game one I would have a different take. They started out playing great but got worse as the game went on and almost lost the lead. It’s the same story as many other games except they won this game. Obviously they aren’t going to shoot sixty percent the entire game but as it wore on they started reverting more and more back to the things they need to avoid.

This game was much better than the Dallas and Orlando games but it’s extremely concerning that they can’t play the right way for four quarters. I don’t mean play lights out for four quarters, I mean continue to try to do the things that got them the lead. If players are moving without the ball and we get good looks but just miss the shot, then so be it. I put a lot of that on Russ but it includes everyone.

And I honestly don’t disagree with anything you just said. I was just encouraged by some of the things that I saw and that they closed it out. It’s like they realize what they need to do and are trying to adjust. But, as you said, let’s see them sustain it, 4 quarters, 2 games, 4 games. I still think they will get there.

I saw no adjustments, really. This was just another collapse waiting to happen. The T'Wolves are just trash enough defensively that we were able to hold on. From the ~18 minute mark onward we played bad basketball, same as always.

There were definitely a few good moments to take away, especially the first three minutes or so of the third quarter. If George doesn't get in foul trouble things might have went differently. Russ took a bad shot before George went out, but it was still off the catch and guys were still moving. As soon as PG left the game Russ started chucking bad shots with little passing and the other guys stood there staring at him while he had the ball. Huestis/Ferguson are huge problems because there's no point running them off screens when they can't even score when wide open standing still or moving to the basket and Grant doesn't know how to set an actual screen. We still need a real center, Abrines needs to regain some semblance of ability to shoot, and we need a guy capable of putting pressure on the defense off of screens with both the drive and shot. We could try running Melo through some of these sets that George runs through, but I have idea how capable he is off screens and Billy has refused to play him at the three all year.

[spearsy23]

I never said that and it’s absolutely false. Again, as has happened with you and I in the past, you can’t handle criticism of Russ and get overly defensive. Funny how a guy who argued with someone quoting him verbatim now wants to put words in others mouth.

Steven Adams will always have limitations on the offensive end but it’s obvious he’s made improvement over the years and he deserves some of that credit too. Of course Russ helps his game. I never said he didn’t. Yes I’m comparing Russ not only with his high standards that he set but also with the high standards of other elite point guards. That makes a lot of more sense than comparing him with the mediocre backups of last year or Raymond Felton to show his impact on the team. Adams will always need help but it’s not unreasonable to think russ isnt the only player in the league that is capable of getting him the ball to score. I feel confident saying this because we saw George do this successfully tonight.

I can appreciate russ’ loyalty, enjoy watching his athleticism when he’s hot and still be critical of his game. It’s got flaws, big ones. Some games he entirely carries the team to victory. Other games it seems like he undoes all of the good from previous game. There is a reason russ is one of the most criticized guys in the league and it’s not anyone’s personal vendetta. Ball dominant, high usage point guards that shoot a low percentage with high turnovers tend to be controversial.

Obviously Russ is better than all of our bench but Alex Abrines and Patrick Patterson don’t have the usage russ does. It would be great if both of those guys would step up for the team. Regardless of the impact they have, it won’t be on Russ’ level because they are role players. I never said Russ is responsible for all of this team’s problems but he’s not free from blame. Games where he shoots 6-21, 0-8 3p, 14 assists, 7 turnovers and 9 rebounds are going to make it tough to beat good teams unless George and Adams play like they did tonight.

You specifically said Russ is awful on offense and criticize his defense constantly. If he's awful on offense and bad on defense then he's a bad player, right? Except he's still having impact better than all but 3 point guards in the league. Weird, it's almost like even at this diminished level of play he's still good. that's the only claim I've made. In order for us to be anything resembling contenders he has to play at near MVP levels, he hasn't done that. He has stopped the offense at times and he has shot like crap, but despite that he's still having a large positive effect on the outcome of games, like top ten in the league type impact. So while you guys whine about how bad he has been, I'm saying to take a moment and realize that his actual value on the court has still been good. And statements like 'any point guard could replicate his impact' are stupid, because in reality they aren't.

In regards to Steven, I've repeatedly explained what you misunderstood, if you still don't get it then it's a reading comprehension problem.

Speaking of reading comprehension issues, I never said ANY point guard could replicate what he did with Adams. I said other elite point guards could do so. As far as Russ’ positive impact on games, were 9-12. It isn’t that great. He did more last year with less around him.

The exact quote was

he isn’t doing anything that many other point guards in the league couldn’t replicate or surpass.

this may just be us differing over the meaning of many, but to me that read as any averageish point guard. If you meant only elite point guards then I'll heartily agree.

And again you're comparing Russ to MVP Russ, who he's undoubtedly been much worse than, and has nothing at all to do with what I said.

[ThunderBolt]

You specifically said Russ is awful on offense and criticize his defense constantly. If he's awful on offense and bad on defense then he's a bad player, right? Except he's still having impact better than all but 3 point guards in the league. Weird, it's almost like even at this diminished level of play he's still good. that's the only claim I've made. In order for us to be anything resembling contenders he has to play at near MVP levels, he hasn't done that. He has stopped the offense at times and he has shot like crap, but despite that he's still having a large positive effect on the outcome of games, like top ten in the league type impact. So while you guys whine about how bad he has been, I'm saying to take a moment and realize that his actual value on the court has still been good. And statements like 'any point guard could replicate his impact' are stupid, because in reality they aren't.

In regards to Steven, I've repeatedly explained what you misunderstood, if you still don't get it then it's a reading comprehension problem.

Speaking of reading comprehension issues, I never said ANY point guard could replicate what he did with Adams. I said other elite point guards could do so. As far as Russ’ positive impact on games, were 9-12. It isn’t that great. He did more last year with less around him.

The exact quote was

he isn’t doing anything that many other point guards in the league couldn’t replicate or surpass.

this may just be us differing over the meaning of many, but to me that read as any averageish point guard. If you meant only elite point guards then I'll heartily agree.

And again you're comparing Russ to MVP Russ, who he's undoubtedly been much worse than, and has nothing at all to do with what I said.

I don’t think Ricky Rubio, Jrue Holiday, or Reggie Jackson are capable to duplicating what russ can do, especially in regard to benefiting Adams. I would be curious what someone who shoots better or someone who is less ball dominant could do with Adams, George and Melo. Players like Lillard, Irving, Chris Paul or prime Mike Conley. Unfortunately we’ll never know.

I don’t hate Russ, but his offensive inefficiency along with often times horrible defense, is very frustrating. When I see how he plays and then see that he still has an all nba caliber bpm, it makes me question the accuracy of bpm.

I also have no problem admitting I don’t know how to pinpoint how much blame goes to Russ and Donovan. Dononvan says the right things and I find it really hard to believe he’s as dumb as he seems. If we traded Russ and kept dononvan for the rebuild and eventually ran a competent offense, I wouldn’t be shocked. If we fired Donovan and got a different coach and Russ learned to play more efficiently, I wouldn’t be shocked either.

[bondom34]

Lillard and Conley haven't ever, not once, been close to as impactful a player as Westbrook. You might as well toss Reggie in there too. And if you want a somewhat similar comparison, here's Adams vs Nurkic:

http://bkref.com/tiny/ddX52

And heres PG vs McCollum:

http://bkref.com/tiny/Etd9f

Given both of Westbrook's teammates with better numbers, this seems unfounded entirely. That plus Westbrook doing the whole winning more thing. And Conley's even further away.

[Kizz Fastfists]

I think the argument that with this cast there are some PGs who would fit better then Russ. I think that makes sense IF your are assuming a certain level of production from PG and Melo with the other point guard. I don't think that is the case, but someone like Jeff Teague would be a good fit with this roster. I think a lot of it is that Russ is trying to hard to adjust to the other guys instead of making them adjust to him. It is like Russ is playing the LeBron role in Miami where he doesn't want it to be his team and is deferring to others like LeBron did to Wade.

Russ needs to own that this is his team and PG and Melo need to adjust to him by moving without the ball and taking the open shots he gets them. PG and Melo need to stop playing iso when Russ is out there and play more like 3&D players. Yes, Melo is 3 and no D, but PG and Melo moving without the ball to get open catch and shoot 3s should be happening more then it is, especially when Russ is driving and collapsing the D. There should be some designed plays where Russ gets a hockey assist with a drive, dump to Adams then an instant pass to a shooter curling off a screen at the 3 point line. With the players this offense has and the skill sets available there is no reason for such a boring and ineffective offense.

I can't say how much of that is Russ not buying in and how much is Donovan, but clearly there are some things not working. There is clearly not enough movement in the offense.

[ThunderBolt]

Lillard and Conley haven't ever, not once, been close to as impactful a player as Westbrook. You might as well toss Reggie in there too. And if you want a somewhat similar comparison, here's Adams vs Nurkic:

http://bkref.com/tiny/ddX52

And heres PG vs McCollum:

http://bkref.com/tiny/Etd9f

Given both of Westbrook's teammates with better numbers, this seems unfounded entirely. That plus Westbrook doing the whole winning more thing. And Conley's even further away.

Lillard and Conley never played alongside Durant either. It’s not an apples to apples comparison. Westbrook has a higher bpm than Durant this year but has he really been a better player?

[bondom34]

Lillard and Conley haven't ever, not once, been close to as impactful a player as Westbrook. You might as well toss Reggie in there too. And if you want a somewhat similar comparison, here's Adams vs Nurkic:

http://bkref.com/tiny/ddX52

And heres PG vs McCollum:

http://bkref.com/tiny/Etd9f

Given both of Westbrook's teammates with better numbers, this seems unfounded entirely. That plus Westbrook doing the whole winning more thing. And Conley's even further away.

Lillard and Conley never played alongside Durant either. It’s not an apples to apples comparison. Westbrook has a higher bpm than Durant this year but has he really been a better player?

I don't think I mentioned BPM. Or Durant. The claim of Westbrook not elevating his teammates like Lillard or Conley is, in its entirety, laughable.

[bondom34]

I think the argument that with this cast there are some PGs who would fit better then Russ. I think that makes sense IF your are assuming a certain level of production from PG and Melo with the other point guard. I don't think that is the case, but someone like Jeff Teague would be a good fit with this roster. I think a lot of it is that Russ is trying to hard to adjust to the other guys instead of making them adjust to him. It is like Russ is playing the LeBron role in Miami where he doesn't want it to be his team and is deferring to others like LeBron did to Wade.

Russ needs to own that this is his team and PG and Melo need to adjust to him by moving without the ball and taking the open shots he gets them. PG and Melo need to stop playing iso when Russ is out there and play more like 3&D players. Yes, Melo is 3 and no D, but PG and Melo moving without the ball to get open catch and shoot 3s should be happening more then it is, especially when Russ is driving and collapsing the D. There should be some designed plays where Russ gets a hockey assist with a drive, dump to Adams then an instant pass to a shooter curling off a screen at the 3 point line. With the players this offense has and the skill sets available there is no reason for such a boring and ineffective offense.

I can't say how much of that is Russ not buying in and how much is Donovan, but clearly there are some things not working. There is clearly not enough movement in the offense.

As to this, I can get behind some of it. The issues are a few:

1. This team is supposed to be built around its best player, which is Russ. A less ball dominant PG may fit better but in that case you're literally not building around your best player (this is why I no longer think Melo was a good move). Lillard or Conley though still remain laughable. Paul or Curry may well fit better.

2. PG and Melo have their own blame in it too.

3. There's still one guy with the ball and 4 watching most times.

[ThunderBolt]

Lillard and Conley haven't ever, not once, been close to as impactful a player as Westbrook. You might as well toss Reggie in there too. And if you want a somewhat similar comparison, here's Adams vs Nurkic:

http://bkref.com/tiny/ddX52

And heres PG vs McCollum:

http://bkref.com/tiny/Etd9f

Given both of Westbrook's teammates with better numbers, this seems unfounded entirely. That plus Westbrook doing the whole winning more thing. And Conley's even further away.

Lillard and Conley never played alongside Durant either. It’s not an apples to apples comparison. Westbrook has a higher bpm than Durant this year but has he really been a better player?

I don't think I mentioned BPM. Or Durant. The claim of Westbrook not elevating his teammates like Lillard or Conley is, in its entirety, laughable.

I don’t care if you mentioned Durant or bpm. I mentioned it because this topic goes beyond your post.

I didn’t say those specific players would elevate teammates . I suggested quite the opposite. By having a point guard who doesn’t dominate the ball while also being a good shooter you can maximize players like Durant, Oladipo and George who are more efficient that russ.

Instead of George fitting around Russ, maybe a lesser but more well rounded point guard that fits around George with this roster wins more games.

[bondom34]

Lillard and Conley never played alongside Durant either. It’s not an apples to apples comparison. Westbrook has a higher bpm than Durant this year but has he really been a better player?

I don't think I mentioned BPM. Or Durant. The claim of Westbrook not elevating his teammates like Lillard or Conley is, in its entirety, laughable.

I don’t care if you mentioned Durant or bpm. I mentioned it because this topic goes beyond your post.

I didn’t say those specific players would elevate teammates . I suggested quite the opposite. By having a point guard who doesn’t dominate the ball while also being a good shooter you can maximize players like Durant, Oladipo and George who are more efficient that russ.

Instead of George fitting around Russ, maybe a lesser but more well rounded point guard that fits around George with this roster wins more games.

Except Lillard and Conley have had teammates of the caliber of George, and haven't won more games.

[ThunderBolt]

I don't think I mentioned BPM. Or Durant. The claim of Westbrook not elevating his teammates like Lillard or Conley is, in its entirety, laughable.

I don’t care if you mentioned Durant or bpm. I mentioned it because this topic goes beyond your post.

I didn’t say those specific players would elevate teammates . I suggested quite the opposite. By having a point guard who doesn’t dominate the ball while also being a good shooter you can maximize players like Durant, Oladipo and George who are more efficient that russ.

Instead of George fitting around Russ, maybe a lesser but more well rounded point guard that fits around George with this roster wins more games.

Except Lillard and Conley have had teammates of the caliber of George, and haven't won more games.

Currently, Conley doesn’t have a players better than George. Do you think CJ is better than George or are you referring to to Lma? Keep in mind your comparing those previous teams to a 9-12 team. So did Lillard and Conley really underachieve in comparison to this team. Russ wasn’t the main guy when he played alongside Durant.

[bondom34]

I don’t care if you mentioned Durant or bpm. I mentioned it because this topic goes beyond your post.

I didn’t say those specific players would elevate teammates . I suggested quite the opposite. By having a point guard who doesn’t dominate the ball while also being a good shooter you can maximize players like Durant, Oladipo and George who are more efficient that russ.

Instead of George fitting around Russ, maybe a lesser but more well rounded point guard that fits around George with this roster wins more games.

Except Lillard and Conley have had teammates of the caliber of George, and haven't won more games.

Currently, Conley doesn’t have a players better than George. Do you think CJ is better than George or are you referring to to Lma? Keep in mind your comparing those previous teams to a 9-12 team. So did Lillard and Conley really underachieve in comparison to this team. Russ wasn’t the main guy when he played alongside Durant.

If we're comparing full seasons to 20 games, try SRS or MOV.

And I'd say CJ and George is lopsided but not terribly and Adams and Nurk is comparable. OKC is still by Pythag a 13-14 win team.

Edit: OKC's net rating w/ Russ on court is better than PDX with Lillard right now.