Did Phil fall asleep On Donovan Mitchell workout?

[earthmansurfer]

Any second rounders or UFA picked after Dotson that are playing better?

I really need to start hearing about how this pick was f*cked up too. I know there has to be someone.

Dotson was picked because he's a triangle back up SG. Leggo!

Phil decided he wanted a second rounder in the trade for Chandler instead of Crowder which he then used on Early passing on Jokic so where was the almighty Knicks European scouting on this one...... does that work for you?

If we had Jokic, we might have slipped to 12th in the last draft and ended up with Mitchel. Oh wait...

[Knicksfan20]

This is the part that I said was nonsense. It was his lack of ability to score which had him passing first, not his trainers and coaches preaching to him to pass first. The star of his team was AJ Slaughter, a guy who wouldn't even cut it as an NBA 3rd stringer. Frank had a very limited role on offense because of his shaky ball handling, inability to break down a defense, inability to shoot off the dribble consistently and so on. He wasn't even used for pass first reasons, he was used for defensive reasons to pressure the ball handler and make an impact on the defensive end because that was his strongest attribute. Not passing, not play making. He would essentially play the role of a spot up shooter because that was the only time he could score was off drive and kicks from other guards creating shots for him.

This dude won Fiba U18 Championship MVP and had shown completely different ability against inferior talent which were his peers .

How is it that he can do all these iso moves against his peers in the U18 tournament

Watch on YouTube

but then the argument is being made that he can't do it on the NBA level, or even Strasburg for that matter, because of the traditional PG development in Europe?

It's nonsense. Like I said before, the only difference is talent! Simple and plain! The NBA is far more superior in talent and level of competition, it has nothing to do with coaching or the way PGs are developed in Europe.

Where are these iso moves you speak of? He has no handle.

[HEZI]

This is the part that I said was nonsense. It was his lack of ability to score which had him passing first, not his trainers and coaches preaching to him to pass first. The star of his team was AJ Slaughter, a guy who wouldn't even cut it as an NBA 3rd stringer. Frank had a very limited role on offense because of his shaky ball handling, inability to break down a defense, inability to shoot off the dribble consistently and so on. He wasn't even used for pass first reasons, he was used for defensive reasons to pressure the ball handler and make an impact on the defensive end because that was his strongest attribute. Not passing, not play making. He would essentially play the role of a spot up shooter because that was the only time he could score was off drive and kicks from other guards creating shots for him.

This dude won Fiba U18 Championship MVP and had shown completely different ability against inferior talent which were his peers .

How is it that he can do all these iso moves against his peers in the U18 tournament

Watch on YouTube

but then the argument is being made that he can't do it on the NBA level, or even Strasburg for that matter, because of the traditional PG development in Europe?

It's nonsense. Like I said before, the only difference is talent! Simple and plain! The NBA is far more superior in talent and level of competition, it has nothing to do with coaching or the way PGs are developed in Europe.

Where are these iso moves you speak of? He has no handle.

In that video you can see him successfully pulling off crossovers, behind the back step backs, in and out, etc. He's got the tools to break down his European peers, now he just has to keep working and polishing those tools to be able to do it on the pro level in the NBA.

[Savageknick2190]

Too much is expected of Frank. He is similar in make up to Antonio Daniels and Alvin Williams. Role players who play good defense. It's likely he will never be an all star or upper echelon player due to his already visible limitations on offense. He can get better at some things but not to the extent some people are expecting. Just be happy with who he is. A good defender who will not be a help on the offensive end. Could the knicks have done better in the draft? Yes, that's obvious but its over now and Frank is who we got. No need to cry over spilled milk.

[Savageknick2190]

Hopefully, the front office has learned their lesson. Best player available not best player for what my team needs are based on offensive system.

[RHODEY]

This is the part that I said was nonsense. It was his lack of ability to score which had him passing first, not his trainers and coaches preaching to him to pass first. The star of his team was AJ Slaughter, a guy who wouldn't even cut it as an NBA 3rd stringer. Frank had a very limited role on offense because of his shaky ball handling, inability to break down a defense, inability to shoot off the dribble consistently and so on. He wasn't even used for pass first reasons, he was used for defensive reasons to pressure the ball handler and make an impact on the defensive end because that was his strongest attribute. Not passing, not play making. He would essentially play the role of a spot up shooter because that was the only time he could score was off drive and kicks from other guards creating shots for him.

This dude won Fiba U18 Championship MVP and had shown completely different ability against inferior talent which were his peers .

How is it that he can do all these iso moves against his peers in the U18 tournament

Watch on YouTube

but then the argument is being made that he can't do it on the NBA level, or even Strasburg for that matter, because of the traditional PG development in Europe?

It's nonsense. Like I said before, the only difference is talent! Simple and plain! The NBA is far more superior in talent and level of competition, it has nothing to do with coaching or the way PGs are developed in Europe.

Where are these iso moves you speak of? He has no handle.

Im going to get killed for this but here goes.... Handle can be improved. Stephen Curry's handles ( from college to now ) went from ok to insane . Frank is 19 - if he focuses in that area (uses whatever tools/drills/reps required) he can make leaps and bounds in that department. Again he's 19...

[xNewYorkMadex]

What bothers me the most is most people argue as if these players are finished products.

Vast majority of rookies are inefficient, and yes they do improve year after year. I mean look at Brandon Ingram, everyone and their mother were ready to call him a bust. 1 yr later and hes improved nearly every part of his game along with his efficiency.

Makes no sense to poke at Smith Jr, Mitchell or even Frank for their poor efficiency. Is it fair to critique? Of course. But lets not act as if these players are going to stay the way they are.

[Clyde_Style]

What bothers me the most is most people argue as if these players are finished products.

Vast majority of rookies are inefficient, and yes they do improve year after year. I mean look at Brandon Ingram, everyone and their mother were ready to call him a bust. 1 yr later and hes improved nearly every part of his game along with his efficiency.

Makes no sense to poke at Smith Jr, Mitchell or even Frank for their poor efficiency. Is it fair to critique? Of course. But lets not act as if these players are going to stay the way they are.

I agree. For example, I have high hopes that one day you will be a well-spoken, literate individual who regularly displays impeccable reasoning and I'm not going to give up on you now.

[Jeff Van Gully]

I don't see how we are going to ever look good with Frank. He may become serviceable, but does not have the superstar potential of Mitchell of Smith jr.

if we're judging superstar potential based on NBA games played to date, DSJ doesn't have it either. nor mitchell really.

[Clyde_Style]

I don't see how we are going to ever look good with Frank. He may become serviceable, but does not have the superstar potential of Mitchell of Smith jr.

if we're judging superstar potential based on NBA games played to date, DSJ doesn't have it either. nor mitchell really.

Jeff Van Gully from the RealGM Knicks board has superstar potential, but no one is talking about him. Lemmings just keep repeating the same garbage and missing the obvious

[IAmTheBest]

a lot of the posts in this topic are fukin ridiculous. Frank is the youngest player in the league getting minutes, and he came from a different basketball situation (euro ball). and you all gonna act like you know what he's going to be years down the road

Too much is expected of Frank. He is similar in make up to Antonio Daniels and Alvin Williams. Role players who play good defense. It's likely he will never be an all star or upper echelon player due to his already visible limitations on offense. He can get better at some things but not to the extent some people are expecting. Just be happy with who he is. A good defender who will not be a help on the offensive end. Could the knicks have done better in the draft? Yes, that's obvious but its over now and Frank is who we got. No need to cry over spilled milk.

do you know who else came into the league lookin like role players who play good defense?

jimmy butler
kawhi leonard
paul george

these cats could barely dribble the ball when then first started playing, and keep in mind that none of them were as young as frank when they started either.

they eventually ended up becoming better than the hyped up talents like tyreke evans, brandon jennings, derrick rose, etc who were all killing it their rookie years

im not saying frank is a lock to become an all nba first team player like those three (although i think he has a decent shot at becoming one). I'm just saying short sighted analysis is the most misguiding.

not every player has the same trajectory, and there are a lot of factors that determine what kind of player someone will be.

[Savageknick2190]

I don't see how we are going to ever look good with Frank. He may become serviceable, but does not have the superstar potential of Mitchell of Smith jr.

if we're judging superstar potential based on NBA games played to date, DSJ doesn't have it either. nor mitchell really.

Smith Jr. and Mitchell have shown abilities that Frank isn't capable of displaying. Their efficiency will improve over time. Mitchell is the first rookie since 2009 to score 40 points in a game. I think your take is wrong. Will they become superstars I don't know but those two have definitely shown upper echelon player abilities. Its likely Frank won't reach nor surpass those two in terms of talent. That doesn't mean he can't experience more success than those two. Frank will rely more on the players around him than the others. As long as he is surrounded by good talent he will have success. The others will more directly contribute to the success or failure of their team. Frank will most likely never have that burden put on him. What he will do in the future is guard the opposing teams best guard. If he can do that than that is enough.

[TrueWarrior]

My board was:

1. Frank
2. Smith
3. Mitchell

I'd be happy with any of the three. They're all different. Frank was 1st though because of his potential. If he reaches 80-90% of what I think he can be, then he will blow the other two out of the water. I just had to take that chance. Same feeling I had with KP.

With that said, I'll just say this:

THJ had a very good offensive rookie year. Looked liked a future 20 ppg scorer to me. Very athletic, with a nice stroke and clutch gene. He, along with others such as MCW, Mason Plumlee, Trey Burke, Dieng, and Olynyk had a better rookie seasons than guys like Giannis, Gobert, McCollum, Schroder, and Porter.

Then THJ regressed his sophomore year, got traded, then sent to the G-League in Atlanta and looked like a complete dud. Well now he's back to looking like a 20 ppg scorer, who also improved the rest of his game (which was non-existent before with us).

Also Trey Burke, after looking somewhat promising as a rookie and making the All-NBA First Team along with Timmy, is on our G-League team, while the other guys I mentioned who needed a few years to develop (3 of them being euros like Frank) are the best players of the class.

Just wait people. Wait. Frank will be a good one.

[Savageknick2190]

a lot of the posts in this topic are fukin ridiculous. Frank is the youngest player in the league getting minutes, and he came from a different basketball situation (euro ball). and you all gonna act like you know what he's going to be years down the road

Too much is expected of Frank. He is similar in make up to Antonio Daniels and Alvin Williams. Role players who play good defense. It's likely he will never be an all star or upper echelon player due to his already visible limitations on offense. He can get better at some things but not to the extent some people are expecting. Just be happy with who he is. A good defender who will not be a help on the offensive end. Could the knicks have done better in the draft? Yes, that's obvious but its over now and Frank is who we got. No need to cry over spilled milk.

do you know who else came into the league lookin like role players who play good defense?

jimmy butler
kawhi leonard
paul george

these cats could barely dribble the ball when then first started playing, and keep in mind that none of them were as young as frank when they started either.

they eventually ended up becoming better than the hyped up talents like tyreke evans, brandon jennings, derrick rose, etc who were all killing it their rookie years

im not saying frank is a lock to become an all nba first team player like those three (although i think he has a decent shot at becoming one). I'm just saying short sighted analysis is the most misguiding.

not every player has the same trajectory, and there are a lot of factors that determine what kind of player someone will be.

The three players you mentioned all displayed flashes of superior skill in their rookie years. They all dribbled quite well. Please don't place expectations on Frank he has little chance of achieving. It's ok to root for success for Frank but don't be a homer. It becomes obvious after awhile.

[IAmTheBest]

a lot of the posts in this topic are fukin ridiculous. Frank is the youngest player in the league getting minutes, and he came from a different basketball situation (euro ball). and you all gonna act like you know what he's going to be years down the road

Too much is expected of Frank. He is similar in make up to Antonio Daniels and Alvin Williams. Role players who play good defense. It's likely he will never be an all star or upper echelon player due to his already visible limitations on offense. He can get better at some things but not to the extent some people are expecting. Just be happy with who he is. A good defender who will not be a help on the offensive end. Could the knicks have done better in the draft? Yes, that's obvious but its over now and Frank is who we got. No need to cry over spilled milk.

do you know who else came into the league lookin like role players who play good defense?

jimmy butler
kawhi leonard
paul george

these cats could barely dribble the ball when then first started playing, and keep in mind that none of them were as young as frank when they started either.

they eventually ended up becoming better than the hyped up talents like tyreke evans, brandon jennings, derrick rose, etc who were all killing it their rookie years

im not saying frank is a lock to become an all nba first team player like those three (although i think he has a decent shot at becoming one). I'm just saying short sighted analysis is the most misguiding.

not every player has the same trajectory, and there are a lot of factors that determine what kind of player someone will be.

The three players you mentioned all displayed flashes of superior skill in their rookie years. They all dribbled quite well. Please don't place expectations on Frank he has little chance of achieving. It's ok to root for success for Frank but don't be a homer. It becomes obvious after awhile.

First of all you're still ignoring the fact that they came into the league a least a year older than Frank.

None of them dribbled better than Frank. None of them. But that's to be expected since Frank is a guard. And Frank has shown flashes of impact beyond his years already also. I'm not being a homer, you just have tunnel vision.

If you really think a 22 year old rookie jimmy butler who scored like 2 ppg his first year and regularly dribbled off his feet showed flashes of superior skill to a 19 year old frank, idk what to tell you.

[Clyde_Style]

Preaching patience towards a 19 year old is not being a homer

[Savageknick2190]

a lot of the posts in this topic are fukin ridiculous. Frank is the youngest player in the league getting minutes, and he came from a different basketball situation (euro ball). and you all gonna act like you know what he's going to be years down the road



do you know who else came into the league lookin like role players who play good defense?

jimmy butler
kawhi leonard
paul george

these cats could barely dribble the ball when then first started playing, and keep in mind that none of them were as young as frank when they started either.

they eventually ended up becoming better than the hyped up talents like tyreke evans, brandon jennings, derrick rose, etc who were all killing it their rookie years

im not saying frank is a lock to become an all nba first team player like those three (although i think he has a decent shot at becoming one). I'm just saying short sighted analysis is the most misguiding.

not every player has the same trajectory, and there are a lot of factors that determine what kind of player someone will be.

The three players you mentioned all displayed flashes of superior skill in their rookie years. They all dribbled quite well. Please don't place expectations on Frank he has little chance of achieving. It's ok to root for success for Frank but don't be a homer. It becomes obvious after awhile.

First of all you're still ignoring the fact that they came into the league a least a year older than Frank.

None of them dribbled better than Frank. None of them. But that's to be expected since Frank is a guard. And Frank has shown flashes of impact beyond his years already also. I'm not being a homer, you just have tunnel vision.

If you really think a 22 year old rookie jimmy butler who scored like 2 ppg his first year and regularly dribbled off his feet showed flashes of superior skill to a 19 year old frank, idk what to tell you.

Frank being younger will not give him athleticism. Frank being younger will not make him quicker or faster. Unless he improves at least one of these things he will not be a upper echelon guard. These skills are already deficient in Frank's game and they are naturally achieved. He will not gain in these areas significantly over time. Without that his projection is again a defensive guard who will play a role on a team. I can be wrong and he could become an all star or superstar. The percentage chance I would put on that is 10 percent or less. It's probably an above 50 percent chance he will slightly improve and be the player I described. This is all a determination based on what he has shown as a basketball player so far.

[Savageknick2190]

Preaching patience towards a 19 year old is not being a homer

Having unrealistic expectations is where the homer part comes in.

[HEZI]

I don't see how we are going to ever look good with Frank. He may become serviceable, but does not have the superstar potential of Mitchell of Smith jr.

if we're judging superstar potential based on NBA games played to date, DSJ doesn't have it either. nor mitchell really.

Smith Jr. and Mitchell have shown abilities that Frank isn't capable of displaying. Their efficiency will improve over time. Mitchell is the first rookie since 2009 to score 40 points in a game. I think your take is wrong. Will they become superstars I don't know but those two have definitely shown upper echelon player abilities. Its likely Frank won't reach nor surpass those two in terms of talent. That doesn't mean he can't experience more success than those two. Frank will rely more on the players around him than the others. As long as he is surrounded by good talent he will have success. The others will more directly contribute to the success or failure of their team. Frank will most likely never have that burden put on him. What he will do in the future is guard the opposing teams best guard. If he can do that than that is enough.

You don't waste the 8th overall pick on just a role playing defensive player, pass up on a stud and then be satisfied with it. Frank will have to justify being selected 8th overall at some point throughout his career. If this ends up being another Ricky Rubio over Steph Curry situation, then we messed up big time. People better have bigger expectations from Frank, not right now obviously, but at some point he's gonna have to show some major improvement to justify him being selected over a guy like Mitchell. It's one thing if Frank doesn't fully live up to his pre draft hype, especially the hype he received from this board, but it's a completely different issue if he never even comes close to it and winds up being just some average role player.

[Jeff Van Gully]

if we're judging superstar potential based on NBA games played to date, DSJ doesn't have it either. nor mitchell really.

Smith Jr. and Mitchell have shown abilities that Frank isn't capable of displaying. Their efficiency will improve over time. Mitchell is the first rookie since 2009 to score 40 points in a game. I think your take is wrong. Will they become superstars I don't know but those two have definitely shown upper echelon player abilities. Its likely Frank won't reach nor surpass those two in terms of talent. That doesn't mean he can't experience more success than those two. Frank will rely more on the players around him than the others. As long as he is surrounded by good talent he will have success. The others will more directly contribute to the success or failure of their team. Frank will most likely never have that burden put on him. What he will do in the future is guard the opposing teams best guard. If he can do that than that is enough.

You don't waste the 8th overall pick on just a role playing defensive player, pass up on a stud and then be satisfied with it. Frank will have to justify being selected 8th overall at some point throughout his career. If this ends up being another Ricky Rubio over Steph Curry situation, then we messed up big time. People better have bigger expectations from Frank, not right now obviously, but at some point he's gonna have to show some major improvement to justify him being selected over a guy like Mitchell. It's one thing if Frank doesn't fully live up to his pre draft hype, especially the hype he received from this board, but it's a completely different issue if he never even comes close to it and winds up being just some average role player.

i liked mitchell, but let's not rewrite history. no one on earth had mitchell at #8 on the draft board. that would have been considered a reach, putting it nicely. things always move around in a redraft. but let's not juxtapose that over the sentiment at the time of the draft.

the fun of this is that players over and underproduce against their draft positions.

and let's assume being prisoners of the moment, that this moment were extended to the end of the season. donovan mitchell averages 30 points a game and wins ROY. so fox, ball, fultz are bad picks too, right?