What's preventing Demar DeRozan from making that leap into a Superstardom like Harden years ago?

[macNcheese3]

DD has improved every year. He has one of the best mid range games in the NBA. However I think his play making ability and lack of a consistent perimeter game is drawing him back a little. He has greatly improved his play making though.

[YogurtProducer]

Have you looked at his shot chart for the last year's play-offs? He shot .278 from behind the three point line and barely attempted any mid range shots (2-4 from 16 ft to <3pt & 3-10 from 10 to <16 ft), making his -still mediocre- efficiency from there irrelevant.

I’m not gonna harp on a guy for not taking bad shots regardless, he was still not efficient than Demar so what’s your point here?

Dude, what is your point? You're the one that came up with those questions in the first place. I specifically said that I'm not comparing DeMar and Harden. Some posters have argued that the mid range game is totally redundant in the modern NBA. That's why I brought up Harden's shot chart in the play-offs and said that he could've used more of them when the defenses were chasing him off the line.

But using Demar to suggest more mid range shots is ridiculous when he isn’t exactly a marksman from there. And then when you consider the fact that Demar (or even Hardens) mid range numbers are lower efficiency wise than what Harden has put up in the post season it doesn’t make any sense.

[KnightofHyrule]

Make a list of current players that had just ONE 30 point game in a conference final, win or loss, and trust me, that list is short.

Spoiler:

Dirk Nowitzki
LeBron James
James Harden
Rajon Rondo
Kyrie Irving
Klay Thompson
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
Dwight Howard
Dwyane Wade
Russell Westbrook
Carmelo Anthony
Paul George
Tony Parker
Kyle Lowry
Chris Bosh
Manu Ginobili
Deron Williams
DeMar DeRozan
Kevin Love
Devin Harris
Jeff Teague

22 active players...

That's a short list. 4.8% of the entire league. All have been NBA All-Stars, and outside of like...five guys, all are surefire Hall of Famers. Harris has an anomaly (never scored more than 11 afterwards), Teague needed overtime, and Williams and Howard were on pace to be Hall of Famers when they did it.

[KnightofHyrule]

So then, the similarities you see between him and DeRozan, to me they are starting from the wrong point. DeRozan was always a top prospect because of his body, and no one ever accused him of being a BBIQ genius, and you're comparing him with someone who was quite the opposite.

As a result the answer to your question is simple to the point it might seem sarcastic:

The only thing keeping DeRozan from superstardom like Harden did, is Harden's brain.

The amount of people lambasting DeRozan for his IQ is concerning. Can somebody please tell me how Kobe Bryant's basketball IQ was that much better?

[phanman]

The amount of people lambasting DeRozan for his IQ is concerning. Can somebody please tell me how Kobe Bryant's basketball IQ was that much better?

Oh god don't do that!!!

[HeartBreakKid]

The amount of people lambasting DeRozan for his IQ is concerning. Can somebody please tell me how Kobe Bryant's basketball IQ was that much better?

seems like a strawman argument. Kobe Bryant's strength isn't basketball IQ either, but Bryant was still more efficient.

DeRozan does have relatively low IQ. He settles for mediocre shots, doesn't move without the ball well, is not much of a defender. Kobe Bryant is better than DeRozan in pretty much every way, and while Bryant might take "bad shots" he is also skilled enough to make them, so the standard for what is bad shot for Bryant is different than DeRozan.

Kobe could take it to the hole, post up, shoot 3s and pull up from mid range - and could adapt to what ever type of defender was on him.

[Boarder Patrol]

Could a Raps fan explain Demar to me? They seem to like him a ton but watching him play and checking out the advanced(ish) stats he just doesn't seem very good. Lots of shots and therefore points, but...

- Has had a positive on/off just once in his 9 year career, NEVER in the playoffs.
- Never exceeded 2.4 VORP for a season, has only been above 2 twice in 9 years (2 represents a neutral value player)
- Negative DBPM every year of his career, OBPM slightly above average last 3 years and below average before that

He can create his own shot, which makes him a lot more valuable in the POs than he otherwise would be (him being one of the few players on the Raps that can do this is why he gets trapped so aggressively).

Not hating, just curious. One thing that stands out to me in his definite favor is that he was featured in 7 of Toronto's 10 best 5-man lineups last year. (https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612761&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*GE*50)

[KnightofHyrule]

The amount of people lambasting DeRozan for his IQ is concerning. Can somebody please tell me how Kobe Bryant's basketball IQ was that much better?

Oh god don't do that!!!

It's the truth.

seems like a strawman argument. Kobe Bryant's strength isn't basketball IQ either, but Bryant was still more efficient.

DeRozan does have relatively low IQ. He settles for mediocre shots, doesn't move without the ball well, is not much of a defender. Kobe Bryant is better than DeRozan in pretty much every way, and while Bryant might take "bad shots" he is also skilled enough to make them, so the standard for what is bad shot for Bryant is different than DeRozan.

Kobe could take it to the hole, post up, shoot 3s and pull up from mid range - and could adapt to what ever type of defender was on him.

That's my point. High BBIQ is not necessary for DeRozan to reach stardom. Because even with a high basketball IQ, it doesn't mean that you are going to be a star in this league.

Kobe could take it to the hole, post up, shoot 3s and pull up from mid range - and could adapt to what ever type of defender was on him.

DeMar could take it to the hole, post up,shoot 3s and pull up from mid range - and could adapt to what ever type of defender was on him* (expect for double teams).

If DeRozan developed a consistent 3pt shot, and didn't crumble under pressure, we would be having a completely different conversation.

[KnightofHyrule]

Could a Raps fan explain Demar to me? They seem to like him a ton but watching him play and checking out the advanced(ish) stats he just doesn't seem very good. Lots of shots and therefore points, but...

- Has had a positive on/off just once in his 9 year career, NEVER in the playoffs.
- Never exceeded 2.4 VORP for a season, has only been above 2 twice in 9 years (2 represents a neutral value player)
- Negative DBPM every year of his career, OBPM slightly above average last 3 years and below average before that

He can create his own shot, which makes him a lot more valuable in the POs than he otherwise would be (him being one of the few players on the Raps that can do this is why he gets trapped so aggressively).

Not hating, just curious. One thing that stands out to me in his definite favor is that he was featured in 7 of Toronto's 10 best 5-man lineups last year. (https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612761&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*GE*50)

When DeRozan is hot he is nearly unstoppable. DeRozan slows the pace against fast paced teams. Most importantly, DeRozan commands a lot of gravity. Problem is that he is inconsistent. On bad nights he could completely kill the offense. As a Raps fan, you just gotta hope he plays good for all of his 35+ minutes.

DeRozan's on/off are heavily skewed by Lowry's minutes being staggered with the bench. If Lowry never played without DeRozan, DeRozan's on/off wouldn't look so bad. Still, this season the bench is playing out of it's mind even without Lowry. DeRozan always had a great bench. They are always near the top of the league in +/-.

[Doctor MJ]

So then, the similarities you see between him and DeRozan, to me they are starting from the wrong point. DeRozan was always a top prospect because of his body, and no one ever accused him of being a BBIQ genius, and you're comparing him with someone who was quite the opposite.

As a result the answer to your question is simple to the point it might seem sarcastic:

The only thing keeping DeRozan from superstardom like Harden did, is Harden's brain.

The amount of people lambasting DeRozan for his IQ is concerning. Can somebody please tell me how Kobe Bryant's basketball IQ was that much better?

You're coming at this problematically, and you're not the only one. It's not a matter of being adequate or insufficient. Harden is brilliant. Simple as that. THAT is why he was able to go from being a high school sidekick to an NBA MVP candidate.

I'm not saying DeRozan is an idiot, but he's not Harden.

Re: Kobe. He's not really relevant here, but just because you're interested:

Kobe's individualist myopia was a real problem, and while DeRozan isn't exactly John Stockton, to me he's never been as possessive of control as Kobe, and in that since, he has a wiser brain than Kobe.

But no one's every doubt that Kobe was an ultra-quick study - that's not just book smart, he had tremendous kinesthetic learning capabilities. DeRozan still is struggling to hit 3's in an era where EVERYONE can hit 3's. He clearly can't learn skills with the same ease that Kobe could.

[Kabookalu]

Could a Raps fan explain Demar to me? They seem to like him a ton but watching him play and checking out the advanced(ish) stats he just doesn't seem very good. Lots of shots and therefore points, but...

- Has had a positive on/off just once in his 9 year career, NEVER in the playoffs.
- Never exceeded 2.4 VORP for a season, has only been above 2 twice in 9 years (2 represents a neutral value player)
- Negative DBPM every year of his career, OBPM slightly above average last 3 years and below average before that

He can create his own shot, which makes him a lot more valuable in the POs than he otherwise would be (him being one of the few players on the Raps that can do this is why he gets trapped so aggressively).

Not hating, just curious. One thing that stands out to me in his definite favor is that he was featured in 7 of Toronto's 10 best 5-man lineups last year. (https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612761&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*GE*50)

Most of the Raptors fans, at least on this site, hate DeMar actually. A lot of them would love to ship him off for a 3D wing.

I like DeMar, mostly because the improvements he's made throughout his career make it hard to not cheer for him, but there's nothing really special about him. He's average to above average in a lot of things but doesn't have that one elite skill that makes him stand out amongst his contemporaries other than footwork. He's not an elite ballhandler, athlete, or shooter. I also think his IQ tends to be underrated, but his problem is that he doesn't possess the skills and athleticism to make more use of it.

If he only had an elite first step he'd pretty much be Wade lite.

[azcatz11]

Could a Raps fan explain Demar to me? They seem to like him a ton but watching him play and checking out the advanced(ish) stats he just doesn't seem very good. Lots of shots and therefore points, but...

- Has had a positive on/off just once in his 9 year career, NEVER in the playoffs.
- Never exceeded 2.4 VORP for a season, has only been above 2 twice in 9 years (2 represents a neutral value player)
- Negative DBPM every year of his career, OBPM slightly above average last 3 years and below average before that

He can create his own shot, which makes him a lot more valuable in the POs than he otherwise would be (him being one of the few players on the Raps that can do this is why he gets trapped so aggressively).

Not hating, just curious. One thing that stands out to me in his definite favor is that he was featured in 7 of Toronto's 10 best 5-man lineups last year. (https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612761&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*GE*50)

Have you even read this thread? There are tons of Raps fans who don't like him who have posted.

As far as why the Raps fans (who like him) like him, probably because he's led them to multiple ECF's. Their best stretch ever as a franchise. Not that complicated.

[Boarder Patrol]

Could a Raps fan explain Demar to me? They seem to like him a ton but watching him play and checking out the advanced(ish) stats he just doesn't seem very good. Lots of shots and therefore points, but...

- Has had a positive on/off just once in his 9 year career, NEVER in the playoffs.
- Never exceeded 2.4 VORP for a season, has only been above 2 twice in 9 years (2 represents a neutral value player)
- Negative DBPM every year of his career, OBPM slightly above average last 3 years and below average before that

He can create his own shot, which makes him a lot more valuable in the POs than he otherwise would be (him being one of the few players on the Raps that can do this is why he gets trapped so aggressively).

Not hating, just curious. One thing that stands out to me in his definite favor is that he was featured in 7 of Toronto's 10 best 5-man lineups last year. (https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612761&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*GE*50)

Have you even read this thread? There are tons of Raps fans who don't like him who have posted.

As far as why the Raps fans (who like him) like him, probably because he's led them to multiple ECF's. Their best stretch ever as a franchise. Not that complicated.

Not entirely, don't have time to read every page of every thread I post in. Sorry.

And the stats I cited would imply he hasn't (led them to the ECF), wouldn't they?

[azcatz11]

Could a Raps fan explain Demar to me? They seem to like him a ton but watching him play and checking out the advanced(ish) stats he just doesn't seem very good. Lots of shots and therefore points, but...

- Has had a positive on/off just once in his 9 year career, NEVER in the playoffs.
- Never exceeded 2.4 VORP for a season, has only been above 2 twice in 9 years (2 represents a neutral value player)
- Negative DBPM every year of his career, OBPM slightly above average last 3 years and below average before that

He can create his own shot, which makes him a lot more valuable in the POs than he otherwise would be (him being one of the few players on the Raps that can do this is why he gets trapped so aggressively).

Not hating, just curious. One thing that stands out to me in his definite favor is that he was featured in 7 of Toronto's 10 best 5-man lineups last year. (https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612761&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*GE*50)

Have you even read this thread? There are tons of Raps fans who don't like him who have posted.

As far as why the Raps fans (who like him) like him, probably because he's led them to multiple ECF's. Their best stretch ever as a franchise. Not that complicated.

Not entirely, don't have time to read every page of every thread I post in. Sorry.

And the stats I cited would imply he hasn't (led them to the ECF), wouldn't they?

Don't make assumptions anymore than.

And yes, he's absolutely led them along with Lowry.

[KnightofHyrule]

DeRozan still is struggling to hit 3's in an era where EVERYONE can hit 3's. He clearly can't learn skills with the same ease that Kobe could.

This is grossly incorrect. DeRozan has improved SOME skill every year that he's been in the league. He simply decided that 3 pt shooting would not be a priority until this past offseason. He made a conservative effort to improve his 3 point shooting, and he has shown that this season. But now the problem is his ability to pick his spots. If he adds that into his game, his 3 pt percentage will improve. His increased 3pt attempts have lead to his eFG% to be at a career high (minus his low attempt rookie year).

Inconsistency and 3pt shooting are what hold DeRozan back. I believe he has the ability to learn the latter. The former...not so sure.

[chyau.00]

Too slow. Not explosive.
Bad handles.
Short arms.
No 3 point shot.

Makes him a very easy cover when defense hones in on him during the playoffs or during crunch time.

[Boarder Patrol]

Have you even read this thread? There are tons of Raps fans who don't like him who have posted.

As far as why the Raps fans (who like him) like him, probably because he's led them to multiple ECF's. Their best stretch ever as a franchise. Not that complicated.

Not entirely, don't have time to read every page of every thread I post in. Sorry.

And the stats I cited would imply he hasn't (led them to the ECF), wouldn't they?

Don't make assumptions anymore than.

And yes, he's absolutely led them along with Lowry.

I didn't make an assumption, I asked a question...why do you care if I've read the whole thread again? I opted to ask a question instead, people are free to answer it, or not answer it.

You seem like a pretty rude guy honestly so I'm gonna leave this here. Other posters answered my question just fine.

[Double Helix]

Could a Raps fan explain Demar to me? They seem to like him a ton but watching him play and checking out the advanced(ish) stats he just doesn't seem very good. Lots of shots and therefore points, but...

- Has had a positive on/off just once in his 9 year career, NEVER in the playoffs.
- Never exceeded 2.4 VORP for a season, has only been above 2 twice in 9 years (2 represents a neutral value player)
- Negative DBPM every year of his career, OBPM slightly above average last 3 years and below average before that

He can create his own shot, which makes him a lot more valuable in the POs than he otherwise would be (him being one of the few players on the Raps that can do this is why he gets trapped so aggressively).

Not hating, just curious. One thing that stands out to me in his definite favor is that he was featured in 7 of Toronto's 10 best 5-man lineups last year. (https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612761&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*GE*50)

He had more haters until recently. His progression has been slow and unconventional. His last 3 years he’s become a very usable offensive weapon sort of along the lines of Carmelo Anthony but maximized better than Anthony ever was because the Raptors know his weaknesses and have built a team to mask his defensive short comings and surround him with 3 point shooters so that he can free up Kyle Lowry — one or the most underrated talents of the past 5 years — to be the analytic superstar that Lowry is.

Derozan is used like a striker in soccer. The team has defenders who do most of the heavy lifting for him and are a top 10 defensive unit in spite of him. His efficiency and passing this year are all better and he can make something happen out of nothing in moments where the Raptors need that.

Despite all of the criticism and evidence against him he’s been a super high usage and high minute guy on a team that’s won lots of regular season games and 4 playoff rounds the past 2 seasons along with a game 6 finish against the eventual Champs. He’s the Raptors Rip Hamilton while Lowry is their Chauncey Billups.

Make no mistake about it though. He’s divisive. Watch him though and he wins you over in time. When he’s on he’s also capable of stealing a game and every team is looking for somebody who can do that. The Raptors would gladly upgrade him for most other all star SGs or SFs but until that happens he’s the closest they get and being a star 2 nights out of 3 is better than a 3&D SG with a high net rating and RPM who doesn’t become that sidekick Lowry needs over 36 minutes.

[sprewellchokes]

This is like asking why Carmelo Anthony can't take the next step to becoming LeBron James. There is a large gap in skills and a large difference between the ears.

C'mon now, Harden is a great talent and he's a better playmaker and better at shooting threes. But please don't mention his name with LeBron again. They're both similar players both disappear in the playoffs. Both prefer scoring one-on-one before defence. Derozen is basically the east version of harden. If dantoni was coaching demar instead of Casey. We'd be talking about him as a mvp candidate too.

Sent from my SM-A520W using RealGM mobile app

[Patches Perry]

This is like asking why Carmelo Anthony can't take the next step to becoming LeBron James. There is a large gap in skills and a large difference between the ears.

C'mon now, Harden is a great talent and he's a better playmaker and better at shooting threes. But please don't mention his name with LeBron again. They're both similar players both disappear in the playoffs. Both prefer scoring one-on-one before defence. Derozen is basically the east version of harden. If dantoni was coaching demar instead of Casey. We'd be talking about him as a mvp candidate too.

Sent from my SM-A520W using RealGM mobile app

Derozan and Harden play nothing alike. How about this - I'll stop comparing Harden to LeBron if you stop comparing Derozan to Harden. There is a sizeable gap between all of them.