King of Empty stats

[CowboyBebop]

For years, the answer has been Carmelo Anthony

[dhsilv2]

how the hell yall saying demar his team gonna win 50 for the 4th straight year but somehow his stats are empty????

how about a guy like kat who gets #s and gives up just as much with his brutal defense or that scrub booker who couldnt guard his own shadow. And melo of course

He is a distant second best player on that team at best.

[dhsilv2]

RAPM looks pretty darn good to me.

Let's take 2013-14 where his WS/BPM/PER topped out. Those metrics (and traditional statistics) says he had one of the best PF seasons ever. However, his RPM is good, but not exactly outpacing the opposition. His 5.06 ranks 5th for PFs that season. 35-year old Dirk Nowitzki led it with 6.35. RAPM has him at 3.63, with Dirk again being the best PF at 5.17. And his 3.63 (career high) isn't all that impressive if you put it next to the great PF seasons of the last 15 years. Dirk Nowitzki, Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett all had season which completely dwarf his 3.63. Again, I'm not saying he is a bad player, he is a very good one. But, he just is not historically great.

What about his ORAPM? We already know his defense is poor and will drag down the stats, and that tends to not get properly measured in box score metrics.

Empty stats would imply that the stats he's putting up are not adding the value they indicate which *tends* to be mostly used when talking high PPG without having the same impact on scoring. Mind you if his defense were worse than it was, I'd be fine using it to say empty stats, but I don't think that's the case here.

[Edrees]

The hawks and pacers are the king of empty stats, both their stadiums lead the league in empty seats.

Hawks stats:
14,138 seats filled per home game

Pacers stats:
14,792 seats per home game

They are the king of empty stats, for sure.

lol yet kobe still took way more shots than lebron biggest hog of all time he made allen iverson look like steve nash

I honestly have no idea what you just said or why.

[RGM_SU]

What about his ORAPM? We already know his defense is poor and will drag down the stats, and that tends to not get properly measured in box score metrics.

2013-14 Kevin Love: 2.83 ORAPM, 0.80 DRAPM

[taikibansei]

Again, I'm not saying he is a bad player, he is a very good one. But, he just is not historically great.

Stop trying to change the subject. The thread itself--as well as your first responses to me--are about "empty stats." You've argued that Love didn't have the impact he should have, implying that his stats are therefore "empty"--while I have refuted this. Nobody, by the way, thinks Love is historically great. Love did, however, have an extremely positive impact on those horrible Twolves teams, basically carrying them. This would seem to make his stats by definition not "empty." Do you understand and concede this point?

[RGM_SU]

Again, I'm not saying he is a bad player, he is a very good one. But, he just is not historically great.

Stop trying to change the subject. The thread itself--as well as your first responses to me--are about "empty stats." You've argued that Love didn't have the impact he should have, implying that his stats are therefore "empty"--while I have refuted this. Nobody, by the way, thinks Love is historically great. Love did, however, have an extremely positive impact on those horrible Twolves teams, basically carrying them. This would seem to make his stats by definition not "empty." Do you understand and concede this point?

Being able to read helps my friend:

While I don't think he is a king of empty stats, I do think that stats (traditional and advanced) overrate Kevin Love's impact. There is a reason why during his time in Minnesota the T'wolves year after year had a worse record than what they should have gotten based on their point-differential / SRS.

[Ballerhogger]

Kevin Love Minnesota days

[taikibansei]

Again, I'm not saying he is a bad player, he is a very good one. But, he just is not historically great.

Stop trying to change the subject. The thread itself--as well as your first responses to me--are about "empty stats." You've argued that Love didn't have the impact he should have, implying that his stats are therefore "empty"--while I have refuted this. Nobody, by the way, thinks Love is historically great. Love did, however, have an extremely positive impact on those horrible Twolves teams, basically carrying them. This would seem to make his stats by definition not "empty." Do you understand and concede this point?

Being able to read helps my friend:

While I don't think he is a king of empty stats, I do think that stats (traditional and advanced) overrate Kevin Love's impact. There is a reason why during his time in Minnesota the T'wolves year after year had a worse record than what they should have gotten based on their point-differential / SRS.

I can read fine:

In 2014, Love finished with a 26.9 PER (same as Duncan’s 2003 MVP season, higher than Barkley’s MVP season, and higher than all three of Bird’s MVP seasons) and .245 win shares per 48 minutes (higher than Bird’s three MVP seasons, LeBron’s first Miami season and Barkley’s MVP season).

And that is why stats don't tell the whole story. Love was never as good as the players you listed. In Minnesota Love was the major reason for the Timberwolves being competitive. But he was also a reason for the Timberwolves always finishing below their expected win total in his time there.

[SOUL]

For years, the answer has been Nikola Vucevic

[RGM_SU]

I can read fine:

In 2014, Love finished with a 26.9 PER (same as Duncan’s 2003 MVP season, higher than Barkley’s MVP season, and higher than all three of Bird’s MVP seasons) and .245 win shares per 48 minutes (higher than Bird’s three MVP seasons, LeBron’s first Miami season and Barkley’s MVP season).

And that is why stats don't tell the whole story. Love was never as good as the players you listed. In Minnesota Love was the major reason for the Timberwolves being competitive. But he was also a reason for the Timberwolves always finishing below their expected win total in his time there.

Doesn't look that way to me:

And that is why stats don't tell the whole story. Love was never as good as the players you listed. In Minnesota Love was the major reason for the Timberwolves being competitive.But he was also a reason for the Timberwolves always finishing below their expected win total in his time there.

You put him in the same sentence as Tim Duncan or LeBron James. And I have shown that his actual impact is way below that of these players. Do you understand and concede this point?

[taikibansei]

I've double-checked this thread, but can't find anybody mentioning this guy: Andrea Bargnani

[taikibansei]

And I have shown that his actual impact is way below that of these players.

No, you posted this:

2010-11: Expected W/L 24-58 - actual W/L 17-65
2011-12: Expected W/L 28-38 - actual W/L 26-40
2012-13: Expected W/L 34-48 - actual W/L 31-51
2013-14: Expected W/L 48-34 - actual W/L 40-42

Point differential says they should've won the expected number of games. And in each of the seasons he was the main guy there did they finish below it. Says something about inability to win close games.

To which I responded with this:

:lol:

2010-11: Expected W/L 24-58 - actual W/L 17-65

"However, from March 20 of that season (when he left the game injured) until the season's bitter end, the Wolves went 0-12, losing by almost 15 points per game without Love. The box score for the last Twolves' victory that season is below:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201103110MIN.html
Look at that starting lineup for the Twolves: Beasley, Milicic, Ridnour and Wesley Johnson, with Jonny Flynn the first guy off the bench. Face it, outside of Love, the construction of that team was historically bad. The second best player on that team overall was Beasley...who would go on to lose his starting job in 2012 on the 23-46 (.333) Suns, for heck's sake! I.e., that that year's Twolves didn’t set futility records of some sort or other testifies to Love's greatness, frankly."

2011-12: Expected W/L 28-38 - actual W/L 26-40

Due to injury, Love missed the first month, and played in just 55 games total. Of these, the Twolves had 24 wins, with 31 losses. In other words, they would have exceeded the expected win total if Love had stayed healthy.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01/gamelog/2012/

2012-13: Expected W/L 34-48 - actual W/L 31-51

Love was injured and only played 18 games. Note that the Twolves had 9 wins and 9 losses (.500) in those games. In other words, they would have exceeded the expected win total if Love had stayed healthy.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01/gamelog/2013/

2013-14: Expected W/L 48-34 - actual W/L 40-42

"The 2014 Wolves were 6.1 points better than opponents when Love played...and 5.6 points worse than opponents when he rested. That's just about a 12-point swing[...]. Still, you needed to watch the games to fully understand the problems. I was actually at this game:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201312220LAC.html
Rubio went for zero (0) points against the Clippers in 39 minutes (while Love went for 45/19/6/1 on 60% shooting against Griffin ) and some Twolves fans (links available if necessary) were blaming the loss on Love/Adelman. Note that the Clippers were double-teaming Love with Rubio's guy--i.e., Rubio was basically being left unguarded (and still couldn't hit a shot). Repeatedly, I watched the Clippers bench actually LAUGH at Rubio for being too scared to/unable to score."



Edited to add: While you could perhaps argue that Love was somewhat injury-prone, I can't see how you can argue that he wasn't positively impacting the Twolves when healthy. The bottom line was that whenever Love sat--whether due to injury or just to rest--the Twolves went into a death spiral. There was nobody else on that roster to take up the slack on offense. Rubio couldn't score in an empty gym, and Pek, while capable, was most effective in the post (limited range) and injured about as much as Love.

[The_Hater]

Wiggins and KAT deserve a mention but my all-time favorite would be Jamal Crawford.

[Vader]

Anthony Davis

[Splashin]

Anthony Davis

Nah, the pels really have just been an injured bad team. Only so much AD can do. He has some help now and they're looking pretty good.

[Double Helix]

Several Knicks come to mind to be honest.

Eddy Curry
Stephon Marbury
Derrick Rose
Carmelo Anthony the past 4 years

[AussieRules]

Kobe towards the end of his career was injured and trying to make a comeback from a career ending Achilles injury. So that example isn’t really valid, Booker is a bad example as well, that takes away from a he validity of this thread making it a total waste of time

[Double Helix]

Cuttino Mobley
Jalen Rose
Antoine Walker

[SFrush]

Corey Maggette