What's preventing Demar DeRozan from making that leap into a Superstardom like Harden years ago?

[HoopsMalone]

Dude, what?

You see having a guy like Derozan on the floor limits your offense's efficiency because he hampers other player's effectiveness. While a guy like Harris fills the role of a more natural SG and therefore helps your offense function more efficiently. So they end up basically having the same value (with regards to wins) as a basketball player.

Demar Derozan is like a girl with a pretty face that has a flabby body but she was wearing loose clothing when you met her after the office Christmas party. When you get her home you'll realize there's a reason no one else wanted her.

You’re pretty clueless about basketball if you honestly believe that.

Actually, it's the other way around. It's easy to get sucked into watching the guy who scores points. The people who know more about basketball are the ones who recognize how a player impacts the actual game.

[sca]

You see having a guy like Derozan on the floor limits your offense's efficiency because he hampers other player's effectiveness. While a guy like Harris fills the role of a more natural SG and therefore helps your offense function more efficiently. So they end up basically having the same value (with regards to wins) as a basketball player.

Demar Derozan is like a girl with a pretty face that has a flabby body but she was wearing loose clothing when you met her after the office Christmas party. When you get her home you'll realize there's a reason no one else wanted her.

You’re pretty clueless about basketball if you honestly believe that.

Actually, it's the other way around. It's easy to get sucked into watching the guy who scores points. The people who know more about basketball are the ones who recognize how a player impacts the actual game.

I’ll just assume that you’re trolling for the sake of my sanity.

[reborn123]

Raptors only made one ECF, not multiple..both Lowry and Derozan also underperformed in most of their playoff series. The Raptor's strength has always been with their bench unit and the supporting cast the Masai brought in

The "Strong supporting cast" of the team that made the ECF consisted of a whole bunch of scrubby guys like Scola, Biyombo, Patterson, Ross, Carroll, etc. What exactly have these guys done on their new teams since moving on from Toronto?

Demar and Lowry are better than people realize and the Raps coaching/system has always been better than its given credit for.

The Raptors coaching staff is much better than people give it credit for, just that everyone focuses on one thing (Valanciunas' lack of touches) to completely discredit all their work.

Valanciunas has one of the better TS%s in the league. In Toronto, he’s second only to Kyle Lowry. He just has to be involved more in the offense.

[HoopsMalone]

You’re pretty clueless about basketball if you honestly believe that.

Actually, it's the other way around. It's easy to get sucked into watching the guy who scores points. The people who know more about basketball are the ones who recognize how a player impacts the actual game.

I’ll just assume that you’re trolling for the sake of my sanity.

Why? You're in the minority if you actually think Derozan is a star player

[alevirfe]

The "Strong supporting cast" of the team that made the ECF consisted of a whole bunch of scrubby guys like Scola, Biyombo, Patterson, Ross, Carroll, etc. What exactly have these guys done on their new teams since moving on from Toronto?

Demar and Lowry are better than people realize and the Raps coaching/system has always been better than its given credit for.

The Raptors coaching staff is much better than people give it credit for, just that everyone focuses on one thing (Valanciunas' lack of touches) to completely discredit all their work.

Valanciunas has one of the better TS%s in the league. In Toronto, he’s second only to Kyle Lowry. He just has to be involved more in the offense.

I think the news is out about JV. He's not very good. His game has aged very poorly with the direction of the NBA. Now that the raptors have a "modern" offense, JV isn't even effective there. What really shines out is how horrible of a defender he is

[dhsilv2]

Make a list of current players that had just ONE 30 point game in a conference final, win or loss, and trust me, that list is short.

Spoiler:

Dirk Nowitzki
LeBron James
James Harden
Rajon Rondo
Kyrie Irving
Klay Thompson
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
Dwight Howard
Dwyane Wade
Russell Westbrook
Carmelo Anthony
Paul George
Tony Parker
Kyle Lowry
Chris Bosh
Manu Ginobili
Deron Williams
DeMar DeRozan
Kevin Love
Devin Harris
Jeff Teague

22 active players...

That's a short list. 4.8% of the entire league. All have been NBA All-Stars, and outside of like...five guys, all are surefire Hall of Famers. Harris has an anomaly (never scored more than 11 afterwards), Teague needed overtime, and Williams and Howard were on pace to be Hall of Famers when they did it.

Other than 30 is atritrary, just in the conference finals is arbitrary...scoring isnt as important as fans think....but anyway i was just posting the list.

[alevirfe]

He's one of the most skilled players in the League in terms of shotmaking ability, footwork & getting to the line, he's also a master in the midrange like Kobe. In terms of getting buckets I can't think of many perimeter players better than him at it.

Yet it feels like something's missing in his game. His advanced stats aren't the best & I feel like he should be averaging 29/30 PPG easy with his talent.

Watch on YouTube

lol are you serious ? I'll point out the key factors :

1. He's a mediocre ball handler , although he has improved over his career ( he couldn't dribble at all as a rookie ) , but he is still nowhere close to Harden , and nowhere near where a star wing should be.

2. He's a terrible defender - Surprisingly for his body type, he's one of the worst defenders in the league , and I mean this literally.

3. He's not explosive - People think he's explosive because he competed in a few dunk contests but athleticism/= explosiveness. Compared to superstar wing players that are athletics , he is nowhere close. He is very slow with his motions , almost never dunks in games unless its a fast break 1-0 ( even a 2-1 fast break he will settle for a layup ). He just doesn't have explosiveness at all. He needs to have an empty gym to show off his "hops"

4. He can't shoot threes.

5. He's soft

6. All he can do is shoot fadeaway 2s - Not a great rebounder or passer , so pretty much hes a fadeway 2 specialist. Screams superstar to you ?

I couldn't disagree with you more. You have raptors flair but I find it hard to believe you actually watch Derozan play

How can you possibly call Demar soft? He's one of the strongest players in the league as shown by his constant drives and high FTAs (over 7 a game!!). He is looking for contact almost always. Is Westbrook soft?

Getting to the free throw line is an elite skill. It's the reason why Demar IS an efficient player despite not being able to hit the 3 (not to mention he is shooting 51% on two point shots). You don't HAVE to be a three point shooter to be efficient. Demar is at 57 TS%. Was Dwade an inefficient player?

He is an excellent play maker and great ball handler. He is one of THE BEST pick and roll players in the NBA (he was top 5 in PPP as the p&r ballhandler last year). You can't be that if you can't shoot, pass, and dribble.

To say demar is not an athlete is a flat out lie. The guy can still jump out of the gym and is strong as an ox. He's similar to guys like Harden, Paul Pierce and Melo. Would you call those guys unathletic?

You are confusing flashiness and flair for good basketball play

[UNCBlue012]

The Raptors.

[KnightofHyrule]

DeRozan still is struggling to hit 3's in an era where EVERYONE can hit 3's. He clearly can't learn skills with the same ease that Kobe could.

This is grossly incorrect. DeRozan has improved SOME skill every year that he's been in the league. He simply decided that 3 pt shooting would not be a priority until this past offseason. He made a conservative effort to improve his 3 point shooting, and he has shown that this season. But now the problem is his ability to pick his spots. If he adds that into his game, his 3 pt percentage will improve. His increased 3pt attempts have lead to his eFG% to be at a career high (minus his low attempt rookie year).

Inconsistency and 3pt shooting are what hold DeRozan back. I believe he has the ability to learn the latter. The former...not so sure.

So it's not that he can't learn to shoot 3's, it's just that he doesn't see the value in it despite the fact pretty much every elite perimeter scorer shoots 3's?

I don't actually think that's a crazy statement, though I'd personally say it's not an either/or situation, but rather some of both. I'm sure you wouldn't argue that all players learn the 3 just as quickly, and I'm sure you wouldn't deny that those who struggle to do so tend to prioritize other things.

I agree here. His priorities are out of wack. People must've pounded it in his head to "stick to his strengths". I think Dennis Scott or someone on NBA TV already said the same thing about his 3 pt shooting when they heard he was working on it.

[KnightofHyrule]

Actually, it's the other way around. It's easy to get sucked into watching the guy who scores points. The people who know more about basketball are the ones who recognize how a player impacts the actual game.

I’ll just assume that you’re trolling for the sake of my sanity.

Why? You're in the minority if you actually think Derozan is a star player

He is. In the playoffs he commands double teams on nearly every possession. Name one non-star that gets that much attention.

[brownbobcat]

Talent.

When you consider how he started out as a rookie, DeRozan has pretty much maxed out his ability. He had good (but not great) athleticism, a good (but not great) midrange jumper, a good (but not great) physical frame. He didn't have handles or an explosive first step or a post game or footwork or change of pace or playmaking ability or 3pt range. So he's done pretty well for himself, all things considered.

[2Mas]

3. He's not explosive - People think he's explosive because he competed in a few dunk contests but athleticism/= explosiveness. Compared to superstar wing players that are athletics , he is nowhere close. He is very slow with his motions , almost never dunks in games unless its a fast break 1-0 ( even a 2-1 fast break he will settle for a layup ). He just doesn't have explosiveness at all. He needs to have an empty gym to show off his "hops"

This has always been my biggst issue with him.

He's tryna be 36 year old kobe not 27 year old kobe.

For somebody seemed "so athletic" what highlights do we ever see? He's a dude i get in 2k tho cause I use him how he should be playing lol. Agressive, fast, athletic. He don't give a damn on d & he doesn't strain himself on o. Prob why he's never hurt.

** Edit -- Didn't mean to roast him. I like DD, do think he could be more though. That said he;s obviously an all star & great at scoring pts. Fine #2 on a contender.

[JunkYardDog6ix]

He's one of the most skilled players in the League in terms of shotmaking ability, footwork & getting to the line, he's also a master in the midrange like Kobe. In terms of getting buckets I can't think of many perimeter players better than him at it.

Yet it feels like something's missing in his game. His advanced stats aren't the best & I feel like he should be averaging 29/30 PPG easy with his talent.

Watch on YouTube

lol are you serious ? I'll point out the key factors :

1. He's a mediocre ball handler , although he has improved over his career ( he couldn't dribble at all as a rookie ) , but he is still nowhere close to Harden , and nowhere near where a star wing should be.

2. He's a terrible defender - Surprisingly for his body type, he's one of the worst defenders in the league , and I mean this literally.

3. He's not explosive - People think he's explosive because he competed in a few dunk contests but athleticism/= explosiveness. Compared to superstar wing players that are athletics , he is nowhere close. He is very slow with his motions , almost never dunks in games unless its a fast break 1-0 ( even a 2-1 fast break he will settle for a layup ). He just doesn't have explosiveness at all. He needs to have an empty gym to show off his "hops"

4. He can't shoot threes.

5. He's soft

6. All he can do is shoot fadeaway 2s - Not a great rebounder or passer , so pretty much hes a fadeway 2 specialist. Screams superstar to you ?

I couldn't disagree with you more. You have raptors flair but I find it hard to believe you actually watch Derozan play

How can you possibly call Demar soft? He's one of the strongest players in the league as shown by his constant drives and high FTAs (over 7 a game!!). He is looking for contact almost always. Is Westbrook soft?

Getting to the free throw line is an elite skill. It's the reason why Demar IS an efficient player despite not being able to hit the 3 (not to mention he is shooting 51% on two point shots). You don't HAVE to be a three point shooter to be efficient. Demar is at 57 TS%. Was Dwade an inefficient player?

He is an excellent play maker and great ball handler. He is one of THE BEST pick and roll players in the NBA (he was top 5 in PPP as the p&r ballhandler last year). You can't be that if you can't shoot, pass, and dribble.

To say demar is not an athlete is a flat out lie. The guy can still jump out of the gym and is strong as an ox. He's similar to guys like Harden, Paul Pierce and Melo. Would you call those guys unathletic?

You are confusing flashiness and flair for good basketball play

Lol I've watched DeMar play plenty from his time as a rookie till now. By soft I don't mean physically , I mean emotionally , he is not a leader and he is not assertive. If someone plays physical defense on him he jacks up some stupid shot and looks at the ref to give him a phantom foul call. Soft is not something a superstar can be which is why I mentioned it in this thread.

Honestly if you think DeMar is a good ball handler I question your knowledge of basketball and if you've ever played. He is nowhere close to the ball handler a superstar wing should be , he cant create off the dribble , hence why they run him off so many screens. All you have to do is watch guys like Harden dribble and you can see they are not even remotely close. Go watch Vince Carter , Paul Pierce , T-Mac ... DeRozan is not in the same stratosphere of ball handling and he never will be.

And I didn't say he's not athletic , I said he's not explosive and not nearly the athlete people think he is. Harden is much more explosive , Pierce was similar athletically to DeMar but he had much better handles and much better shooting so there's that. I'm not sure you understand the difference between athletic and explosive.

[JunkYardDog6ix]

3. He's not explosive - People think he's explosive because he competed in a few dunk contests but athleticism/= explosiveness. Compared to superstar wing players that are athletics , he is nowhere close. He is very slow with his motions , almost never dunks in games unless its a fast break 1-0 ( even a 2-1 fast break he will settle for a layup ). He just doesn't have explosiveness at all. He needs to have an empty gym to show off his "hops"

This has always been my biggst issue with him.

He's tryna be 36 year old kobe not 27 year old kobe.

For somebody seemed "so athletic" what highlights do we ever see? He's a dude i get in 2k tho cause I use him how he should be playing lol. Agressive, fast, athletic. He don't give a damn on d & he doesn't strain himself on o. Prob why he's never hurt.

** Edit -- Didn't mean to roast him. I like DD, do think he could be more though. That said he;s obviously an all star & great at scoring pts. Fine #2 on a contender.

Yeah that's the thing he's just not explosive like Kobe or Carter , if you gave those guys any room they would dunk on you , if you give DeMar that same room he will try and do a layup. 2K obviously thinks he can dunk on people but he just can't. I think its a combination of him being soft and preferring a layup and also his natural athleticism has been greatly overrated since his college days.

[JunkYardDog6ix]

LOL wow this is something I expected people to say maybe 2-3 years ago. But even now? He's proving year after year that his game is no joke and stats speak for himself. Everyone expected him to fall off but he hasnt.

Its also surprising that a celtics fans would post this considering Derozan has **** on the Celtics almost everytime he's faced them. I assumed you would get a first-hand look at how he's clearly not "fools gold" anymore

The thing about fool's gold is that that the fool believes in it

No team is winning a championship with DeMar as their first second or even 3rd option. He is severely lacking key basketball skills.

Start a comparison that nobody has any business starting, then later trash him. And do it by making statements people would make 3 years ago. No wonder you don't post on our forum ever. Wtf.

I didn't start this comparison buddy. And I don't care to post on "your" forums. The type of guys that post in "your" forums are the ones that start this thread and make these comparisons so I'm good where I am

[Hoopzilla]

Why has this turned into a debate about Harden and DeRozan?

Harden came into the league as a super talented shooting guard who can do it all, but had limited athleticism. A below the rim type of player like Paul Pierce. He was the third pick in the draft and was seen as a sure fire prospect. He was considered a safe third pick.

DeRozan came in as a guy who can run faster and jump higher than than most, period. He was not known for being very skilled, but he was a superior athlete with potential. DeRozan took that raw athleticism and potential and turned himself into an NBA all star, while still remaining deficient in some elements of the game. He was considered a project at the ninth pick.

If anything, Harden has become the player people that he would be while DeRozan has produced far beyond any realistic expectation. If Harden improved as much as DeRozan has, Harden would be the best player in the game.

Insulting the player that DeRozan has become because he never became a better player than someone who was always considered better than him is stupid and irresponsible.

You must also consider that Harden is given the ball and allowed to do whatever he wants with it. DeRozan only usually gets the ball when the Lowry is done wasting time and the clock is winding down and DeRozan has no choice but to make something happen. Since the time is winding down and the defence has stopped everything Lowry tried to create up to that point, scoring is the only thing left for Demar to do. Demar is basically the blowoff valve for the Raps offense, he bails them out when there is nothing left. Harden is given the ball with a fresh clock and isn't even scolded when he launches multiple threes from 35 feet.

If Harden and DeRozan played the same role for their teams, it would make sense to compare them, but they don't. I am not saying Demar could do the role Harden does, I am just showing how dumb these comparisons are and how unfair it is to even discuss it. The only place these guys are truly equal is on the defensive end, they are both equally deficient and I doubt anyone would argue that.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I think the point with Demar is largely missed entirely. The thing that people miss with Demar is he's actually incredibly methodical in how he plays. He isn't the most skilled player out there, nor is he actually the most athletic. What he does is play by a script. He figures out what works and does that, step by step. The past few seasons, and in particular this season, he's been starting to play with his head up a bit more, which allows him to have a bit more variety in his scripts, which helps him a lot. Demar is really, really good, but he's a lot more comparable to Paul Pierce (there are obvious differences, but there are some decent similarities as well) than he is to Harden, or even Vince/Kobe.

Harden, by contrast, is one of the quickest thinkers in the NBA, and reads the game quicker than almost anyone in the game today. It's a skill of his that goes ridiculously unnoticed. His read/react is incredible. Honestly, I feel he gets underrated on defense for those reasons because he will read situations and realize it's futile and give up, leading to memes and youtube clips, but overall the numbers bear out that he's actually reasonably effective defensively because of his awareness. On offense, he very quickly figures out the most efficient way to go about things, too, and draws fouls, hits 3s, etc. and even changes his game depending on how the game is going to be called in any given season. He's really adaptable that way, and it allows him to make passes that Derozan just can't, because he sees and reads the game so much better. Harden is unreal in that respect - he reminds me quite a bit of Steve Nash in that respect, only his better physical tools allow him to be even more effective on both ends of the floor.

[Hoopzilla]

I think the point with Demar is largely missed entirely. The thing that people miss with Demar is he's actually incredibly methodical in how he plays. He isn't the most skilled player out there, nor is he actually the most athletic. What he does is play by a script. He figures out what works and does that, step by step. The past few seasons, and in particular this season, he's been starting to play with his head up a bit more, which allows him to have a bit more variety in his scripts, which helps him a lot. Demar is really, really good, but he's a lot more comparable to Paul Pierce (there are obvious differences, but there are some decent similarities as well) than he is to Harden, or even Vince/Kobe.

Harden, by contrast, is one of the quickest thinkers in the NBA, and reads the game quicker than almost anyone in the game today. It's a skill of his that goes ridiculously unnoticed. His read/react is incredible. Honestly, I feel he gets underrated on defense for those reasons because he will read situations and realize it's futile and give up, leading to memes and youtube clips, but overall the numbers bear out that he's actually reasonably effective defensively because of his awareness. On offense, he very quickly figures out the most efficient way to go about things, too, and draws fouls, hits 3s, etc. and even changes his game depending on how the game is going to be called in any given season. He's really adaptable that way, and it allows him to make passes that Derozan just can't, because he sees and reads the game so much better. Harden is unreal in that respect - he reminds me quite a bit of Steve Nash in that respect, only his better physical tools allow him to be even more effective on both ends of the floor.

Paul Pierce is a terrible comparison for DeRozan, but a very accurate one for Harden.

A more accurate comparison for DeRozan is Corey Maggette. They are pretty close to the same player with the exact same deficiencies. I think DeRozan is a bit better, but the comparison is dead on.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Pierce is terrible on a few levels, but different on others. Derozan is really hard to find a comparison for, though. I don't think Maggette is any better a comparison than Pierce, honestly. There are some similarities there, but also some rather profound differences. I sometimes think Jason Richardson, but even there, it isn't a particularly amazing comparison. Maybe Adrian Dantley? Tough to cross eras like that, though.

[The_Hater]

I think the point with Demar is largely missed entirely. The thing that people miss with Demar is he's actually incredibly methodical in how he plays. He isn't the most skilled player out there, nor is he actually the most athletic. What he does is play by a script. He figures out what works and does that, step by step. The past few seasons, and in particular this season, he's been starting to play with his head up a bit more, which allows him to have a bit more variety in his scripts, which helps him a lot. Demar is really, really good, but he's a lot more comparable to Paul Pierce (there are obvious differences, but there are some decent similarities as well) than he is to Harden, or even Vince/Kobe.

Harden, by contrast, is one of the quickest thinkers in the NBA, and reads the game quicker than almost anyone in the game today. It's a skill of his that goes ridiculously unnoticed. His read/react is incredible. Honestly, I feel he gets underrated on defense for those reasons because he will read situations and realize it's futile and give up, leading to memes and youtube clips, but overall the numbers bear out that he's actually reasonably effective defensively because of his awareness. On offense, he very quickly figures out the most efficient way to go about things, too, and draws fouls, hits 3s, etc. and even changes his game depending on how the game is going to be called in any given season. He's really adaptable that way, and it allows him to make passes that Derozan just can't, because he sees and reads the game so much better. Harden is unreal in that respect - he reminds me quite a bit of Steve Nash in that respect, only his better physical tools allow him to be even more effective on both ends of the floor.

Paul Pierce is a terrible comparison for DeRozan, but a very accurate one for Harden.

A more accurate comparison for DeRozan is Corey Maggette. They are pretty close to the same player with the exact same deficiencies. I think DeRozan is a bit better, but the comparison is dead on.

Imo Pierce isn't a great comparison for either player because he was somewhat a cross between them. He had the footwork and deliberate part of the game DD has but he was also far more instinctive and well rounded like Harden with deft passing and range.

I completely agree about the Maggete comp for DeRozan although I do think DD has lifted himself above that level the past 2 seasons. But their are tons of similarities between them.